Do they both start against Derby?

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

31 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

There is no excuse for poor training and aptitude. However the clubs ambitions don’t meet mine and many other fans expectations and I would very much doubt they meet the expectations of the 2 players in question.

And if both players are shown in the coming weeks to have wanted to play premier league football right now, as in this season we are currently playing in, how on earth are we supposed to match that ambition?

[Alex Moss 2,165]

15 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

What "reports" are you believing there? I've not seen any reports of players downing tools completely. You can watch the video of training from Friday on youtube and they are both there, training in the rain. 

Farke hasn;t said they have downed tools, he hasn;t even said they trained badly more that he has made a judgment that they are not entirely focussed at the moment. Impossible for anyone to prove that one way or another including him and I think its quite unfair that he has basically hung the players out to dry here. Emi may have enough goodwill from the fans to come back from it - frankly if he were to play next week and play well then the fans would just be so delighted to still have him they will forget about it.

For Todd on the other hand I find it hard to see how he comes back from this with us. 

I believe it was one of our respected ‘Itk’ people on here that said Todd had downed tools, and he’s a trustworthy poster. Though I also added ‘if reports are to be believed’ - which I’m guessing you believe means substantiated fact.

[Jim Smith 2,362]

5 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I think you have answered your own point here to an extent. He has only 'hung out the players to dry' from the view of the fans who are immediately reading far too much into it than is warranted. Like you say, in reality the comments suggest very little other than a lack of focus. Yet this has been magnified into something much bigger. Whether or not these fans are proven correct is another point, but I don't think that justifies the abuse now when we clearly don't know the full circumstances - the comments should be taken at face value for the good of all parties until we have a clearer picture. Of course that doesn't mean we can't speculate.

You may think that Farke should've handled it better in this respect by keeping things away from fan knowledge entirely, and I wouldn't disagree at all, but the fact that Buendia seems to be getting off nearly scot-free while Cantwell is being absolutely vilified would suggest that Farke did not anticipate such a negative reaction for either player.

Both players have received the same treatment yet only one has been 'hung out to dry'.

I think the way Farke has gone about it (although personally i think this has Webber's fingerprints all over it) may be counter productive in that he has created a rift between the players and the club/fans at the worst possible time. Unless of course one of the aims is actually to precipitate sales rather than get them back in the fold. I still harbour suspicions that this has been done because the club has decided it wants to cash in now on these players and they are looking to deflect criticism they might get from the fans if they do so. you only need to look at the number of comments from fans saying we should "cash in" to see that objective has been acheived if it is what they are trying to do. 

So we sell Jamal and Max because we can;t be seen to be holding them back from great opportunities and we sell Todd and Emi because they "downed tools" and didn;t want to play for us. Suddenly we've sold 4 of the 5 despite, all for apparently justified reasons, despite it flying in the face of the "we don;t need to sell" mantra.

If his plan is to provoke a reaction and it works then fair play but if so i think that ignores the added complexity brought about by the transfer window/position post relegation. 

I think they've both been hung out to try to be honest but in practice Todd more so because he is seen as less "crucial" to the side and was already a player who tended to polarise the support. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,184]

21 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

Mclean might turn up 30 mins before training everyday but is he a match winner ? 

 

At this level - yes.

 

 

[Jim Smith 2,362]

7 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

And if both players are shown in the coming weeks to have wanted to play premier league football right now, as in this season we are currently playing in, how on earth are we supposed to match that ambition?

Perhaps we should have tried to stay in the premier league when we were there. Just a bit. It might even have worked if we had done. 

[hogesar 9,786]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

I think the way Farke has gone about it (although personally i think this has Webber's fingerprints all over it) may be counter productive in that he has created a rift between the players and the club/fans at the worst possible time. Unless of course one of the aims is actually to precipitate sales rather than get them back in the fold. I still harbour suspicions that this has been done because the club has decided it wants to cash in now on these players and they are looking to deflect criticism they might get from the fans if they do so. you only need to look at the number of comments from fans saying we should "cash in" to see that objective has been acheived if it is what they are trying to do. 

So we sell Jamal and Max because we can;t be seen to be holding them back from great opportunities and we sell Todd and Emi because they "downed tools" and didn;t want to play for us. Suddenly we've sold 4 of the 5 despite, all for apparently justified reasons, despite it flying in the face of the "we don;t need to sell" mantra.

If his plan is to provoke a reaction and it works then fair play but if so i think that ignores the added complexity brought about by the transfer window/position post relegation. 

I think they've both been hung out to try to be honest but in practice Todd more so because he is seen as less "crucial" to the side and was already a player who tended to polarise the support. 

Only if it was for cashing in you wouldn't publically criticise their attitude and potentially impacting on transfer offers and values.

[Jim Smith 2,362]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Only if it was for cashing in you wouldn't publically criticise their attitude and potentially impacting on transfer offers and values.

I doubt whether in practice that makes much of a difference to values.

[Capt. Pants 4,318]

Yes but Farke won't pick them. 

Both will leave and Max too.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,811]

The fact that there's no fans in the stadiums 'might' see a way back for them to feature. I remember the likes of Tim Sherwood ,Damian Francis and Lewis Grabban pulling stunts like this and there was no way back as far as fans were concerned.

[sgncfc 1,260]

2 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

There is no excuse for poor training and aptitude. However the clubs ambitions don’t meet mine and many other fans expectations and I would very much doubt they meet the expectations of the 2 players in question. 
 

they are by far our most prized assets. Far exceeding the defenders who people rate so highly yet of continue to be out of position and ineffective week in week out. 
 

Cantwell scored goals from midfield in the premiership (in a very poor team) that’s a very prized resource in the current game. Emi created chances for goals in the premiership in that same poor team. Another highly desirable quality. How we could have done with either yesterday instead of throwing on striker after striker with no quality supply line. More of Farkes great wisdom shown there! 
 

They are winners and winners want to progress. Unfortunately the club and a large section of the supporters are to frightened to allow it to happen. We are tied down by the failures of our past. Scared to pursue progress because of poor decisions people made in recruitment in the past. 
 

They will go and we will sit on the money all bar a small token gesture.  
 

“There is no project” 

They are clearly winners. Cantwell hasn't had an assist for a year. Buendia scored one goal. Both were a major part of one of the six worst EPL sides in history. Winners, obviously. And yes, if we sell them to some idiots with too much money we will of course sit on that money so we can pay lots of tax at the end of the financial year in May. That's clearly sound financial planning. It's a good job you're right on the button otherwise I'd think you are really short of some marbles.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

I think the way Farke has gone about it (although personally i think this has Webber's fingerprints all over it) may be counter productive in that he has created a rift between the players and the club/fans at the worst possible time. Unless of course one of the aims is actually to precipitate sales rather than get them back in the fold. I still harbour suspicions that this has been done because the club has decided it wants to cash in now on these players and they are looking to deflect criticism they might get from the fans if they do so. you only need to look at the number of comments from fans saying we should "cash in" to see that objective has been acheived if it is what they are trying to do. 

So we sell Jamal and Max because we can;t be seen to be holding them back from great opportunities and we sell Todd and Emi because they "downed tools" and didn;t want to play for us. Suddenly we've sold 4 of the 5 despite, all for apparently justified reasons, despite it flying in the face of the "we don;t need to sell" mantra.

If his plan is to provoke a reaction and it works then fair play but if so i think that ignores the added complexity brought about by the transfer window/position post relegation. 

I think they've both been hung out to try to be honest but in practice Todd more so because he is seen as less "crucial" to the side and was already a player who tended to polarise the support. 

I'm not sure, I don't think Farke and Webber would conjure up this angle solely to get the fans on board with the idea of them leaving. All of the reasoning behind any sale can easily be explained to the fans after the fact, problem solved.

If this was the tactic then all we have served to do is lose ourselves some bargaining power. If Cantwell and Buendia don't now get their heads down and back into the fold, they could be out of the squad for the next games too - all the way up to the end of the transfer window and beyond if nothing happens. Would we allow nothing to happen or will we bite the bullet and accept what will most probably be a subpar bid from another club? Doesn't seem like a very good set of circumstances if intentional IMO.

The difference in treatment between these two and Aarons is also telling and shows to me that there is no attempt to cash in. I feel any of these three are as likely to go - Aarons perhaps more so as he's the only that has been tabling so much interest - yet he has remained in the squad in every game.

Why would selling Cantwell / Buendia not qualify under 'we can't be seen to be holding them back from great opportunities' like Jamal and Max? Why do we need to make up this agenda of 'downed tools' when we already have a legitimate reason to pass them on? Or are you insinuating that this reasoning will justify an acceptance of a below value bid?

 

[Icecream Snow 762]

4 hours ago, curious yellow said:

According to Nick Ma****er, the bid from Leeds has been made, 15 million - we want add-ons and personal terms to be agreed. 

We really should get these deals done quickly so we have time to bring in a replacement. 

Nick Mash1ter used to have a strong working relationship with Webber and was Webber's go to guy when he wanted to release stories to the media. Relationship seems to have died down over the years but he was pretty reliable so if he's saying it I would expect Todd to be off to Leeds soon.

[Jim Smith 2,362]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I'm not sure, I don't think Farke and Webber would conjure up this angle solely to get the fans on board with the idea of them leaving. All of the reasoning behind any sale can easily be explained to the fans after the fact, problem solved.

If this was the tactic then all we have served to do is lose ourselves some bargaining power. If Cantwell and Buendia don't now get their heads down and back into the fold, they could be out of the squad for the next games too - all the way up to the end of the transfer window and beyond if nothing happens. Would we allow nothing to happen or will we bite the bullet and accept what will most probably be a subpar bid from another club? Doesn't seem like a very good set of circumstances if intentional IMO.

The difference in treatment between these two and Aarons is also telling and shows to me that there is no attempt to cash in. I feel any of these three are as likely to go - Aarons perhaps more so as he's the only that has been tabling so much interest - yet he has remained in the squad in every game.

Why would selling Cantwell / Buendia not qualify under 'we can't be seen to be holding them back from great opportunities' like Jamal and Max? Why do we need to make up this agenda of 'downed tools' when we already have a legitimate reason to pass them on? Or are you insinuating that this reasoning will justify an acceptance of a below value bid?

 

Not a below value bid no but having publically said they don;t need or want to sell, you can't then sell 4 of the 5 without looking a bit stupid. Unless of course you hand is forced by players "downing tools" so you need to "get rid."

[hogesar 9,786]

2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Not a below value bid no but having publically said they don;t need or want to sell, you can't then sell 4 of the 5 without looking a bit stupid. Unless of course you hand is forced by players "downing tools" so you need to "get rid."

And of course, it couldn't possibly be true that the players have done exactly what has been said.

[seanthecanary 168]

4 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

How we could have done with either yesterday instead of throwing on striker after striker with no quality supply line. More of Farkes great wisdom shown there! 

What else could Farke do though really with the two players sulking, Dowell injured and Steiperman not fit enough?  He had no one else but Vrancic and the strikers to bring on.  You can hardly bring on Tettey to add attacking flair

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Not a below value bid no but having publically said they don;t need or want to sell, you can't then sell 4 of the 5 without looking a bit stupid. Unless of course you hand is forced by players "downing tools" so you need to "get rid."

I would've understood if you specifically meant accepting a lower value bid for Cantwell / Buendia, but the above reasoning doesn't really tie in with what you previously mentioned. 

You said that the selling of Aarons and Lewis can be justified as part of us 'not stopping our prospects from moving on better things'. But Aarons hasn't even been sold yet? So how does that figure?

Why hasn't Aarons received the same treatment? Are you implying that we are imminently about to sell Aarons, and then Cantwell / Buendia later on in the window when we no longer look like we 'don't have to sell'- why do you think this to be true?

All seems a bit too coincidental. 

 

[Hardhouse44 261]

5 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Pffftttttttt.......... Barcelona, Bayern Munich, AC Milan, Roma, PSG, Tottenham, Arsenal, Everton and Fulham all don't know what they're talking about..... unlike football guru Hardhouse 44 🤣

Yet we concede goal after goal after goal. I hope we sell both Aarons and Godfrey for good money and good luck to them. But they aren’t going anywhere at present let alone those teams you just mentioned. They are turning out for a team who couldn’t muster a goal against a pi§§ poor Bournemouth side. Or stop them scoring. 
 

Maybe the teams you mentioned would do well to watch them week in week out in the flesh like I have. Might save themselves a few bob.  
 

**** head

[Michael Wynless Jones 161]

Yes, if they're still here. They're two of our best players, and the treatment of Cantwell especially by some fans is ludicrous. 

[Hardhouse44 261]

5 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

And if both players are shown in the coming weeks to have wanted to play premier league football right now, as in this season we are currently playing in, how on earth are we supposed to match that ambition?

We could have made some attempt to stay in the premier league ourselves. Ambition isn’t a dirty word.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,184]

6 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Yet we concede goal after goal after goal. I hope we sell both Aarons and Godfrey for good money and good luck to them. But they aren’t going anywhere at present let alone those teams you just mentioned. They are turning out for a team who couldn’t muster a goal against a pi§§ poor Bournemouth side. Or stop them scoring. 
 

Maybe the teams you mentioned would do well to watch them week in week out in the flesh like I have. Might save themselves a few bob.  
 

**** head

You didn't just call me a **** head did you? 🤣 🤣  

(I must have missed your tenure as manager of Barcelona)

[Hardhouse44 261]

5 hours ago, Badger said:

 

I think that the vast majority of fans are just as "ambitious" as you are. However, many of them have a more adult understanding of financial realities than some who claim "ambition" demonstrate. The world just isn't quite as simple as you seem to think.

So the adult approach is not to try and stay in a league where you’re  guaranteed £150m a year plus its to go up take the sort term cash option and hope that we will go up again and find cheap assets we can sell on. The world might not be simple but actually business is. 
 

Don’t tell me. No matter what we spent in the premiership we weren’t guaranteed to stay up. Yet we are guaranteed to find new assets and get promotion again. 

[lake district canary 4,557]

Emi has proved several times that he can regain focus and buckle down after Farke comments and being left out - and I hope that will be the case again.

Todd, to my knowledge, hasn't before been seen as lacking, although Farke has twice in the last two years made public comments about 1) being more focussed in front of goal (after a game early in the championship season, in which Cantwell had hit several shots wide or over the top) and 2) towards the end of last season about attacking midfielders needing to be more effective - ie Todd and Emi. 

So I can see Emi being in the squad, but maybe not starting, but I can't see Todd there if he is distracted by possible transfer stuff.

Edited September 28, 2020 by lake district canary

[pete 320]

Need to find a new way to play without these two, sell them if there are interested clubs put money aside rebuild and go for promotion next season.  Incorporate those youngsters signed Placheta, Sorenson, Dowell, Martin and loanees that might impress.  This season too early.  If youngsters can do it make it to PL and if relegated we will have more stars to sell.  Farke and staff will see out contracts cannot afford to dismiss. 

[daisy 138]

Yes.

[Yellowhammer 89]

Yes they should start if they are still at the club they are still getting wages so earn them by giving us the best chance  of winning , no silly stamping feet and acting childish just play football , and support your team and fans 

[Yellow Fever 3,847]

Both have been 'bigged' up by fans and media alike.. more so Cantwell in the MSM. I suspect they think they are better than they are yet its not terribly clear that either command the transfer interest they crave.

Compare with the unsung professionalism of Lewis and Aarons.

Cantwell will leave and won't be seen again in yellow and green. The door is slightly open for EMi.

Neither will start against Derby.

[paddycanary 540]

Cantwell has always seemed likely to seek a move, ever since that dismal post-lockdown shambles. And from his point of view, it's understandable. A massive wage increase from what he's on here, sharing a pitch with some top players, increased exposure...& he's been subjected to ridiculous behaviour on social media from "fans," which shouldn't be underestimated. I wouldn't blame him, and if the club can squeeze 15-20m out of the transfer, the conveyor can keep rolling, & good luck to him.

A likely scenario could see Cantwell move in the next week & (sadly) Emi in January, particularly if we're treading water in this division, which is quite possible. It's too soon for the doom & gloom yet though. The squad are still finding their feet, and the feeble relegation has yet to be expunged from the mindset. If players don't want to be here, get shot of them and move forwards. Despite not playing very well, we got a clean sheet & a win in game one, came from behind twice to get a decent point against a settled Preston, and showed plenty of spirit going down to a single goal away to a good Bournemouth side even with all the background noise going on. I'm reserving judgement until after the Swansea game on 7th November. At this point I'm sticking with my Top 6 end of season prediction. The sooner this transfer window ends the better. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,184]

5 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

So the adult approach is not to try and stay in a league where you’re  guaranteed £150m a year plus its to go up take the sort term cash option and hope that we will go up again and find cheap assets we can sell on. The world might not be simple but actually business is. 
 

Don’t tell me. No matter what we spent in the premiership we weren’t guaranteed to stay up. Yet we are guaranteed to find new assets and get promotion again. 

Not only were we not guaranteed to stay up - we were also guaranteed to be up sh*t creek without a paddle if we did go down. 

[Badger 2,413]

23 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

So the adult approach is not to try and stay in a league where you’re  guaranteed £150m a year plus its to go up take the sort term cash option and hope that we will go up again and find cheap assets we can sell on. The world might not be simple but actually business is. 
 

Don’t tell me. No matter what we spent in the premiership we weren’t guaranteed to stay up. Yet we are guaranteed to find new assets and get promotion again. 

The adult approach is not to borrow to pay over the odds for assets that may or not be beneficial and leave yourself with damaging debt and over-commitment in the event that said "gambles" fail. It is also to maximise long term advantages to build growth and improvement steadily rather than take silly risk in a dash for growth.

As you say business is quite simple - heavy borrowing for questionable assets when you have an uncertain revenue stream would certainly be very poor advice.

[Hardhouse44 261]

34 minutes ago, Badger said:

The adult approach is not to borrow to pay over the odds for assets that may or not be beneficial and leave yourself with damaging debt and over-commitment in the event that said "gambles" fail. It is also to maximise long term advantages to build growth and improvement steadily rather than take silly risk in a dash for growth.

As you say business is quite simple - heavy borrowing for questionable assets when you have an uncertain revenue stream would certainly be very poor advice.

Ha. That’s the problem the whole plan/project call it what you will totally relies on finding assets who can be sold to prop up the the club. It’s more risky than anything you accuse me of wanting. Failure over 3 years to gain promotion or find saleable assets and we are down the pan.