New Tory Leader

[Well b back 3,222]

3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Whatever is thought of Cummings' evidence today...

I have to say that Hancock's words "we've thrown a protective ring around care homes" is one of those sentences that will forever live in the mind, such a callousness and disrespect in those words.

Then to see him talk up his 'Care' and 'NHS' badges was a surreal moment in 2020.

Hancock is worthy, in this poster's mind anyway, of the grossest contempt.

Cummings details lying accusations against Matt Hancock

Greg Clark asks Cummings to substantiate his assertion earlier that Health Secretary has "lied" - Cummings says there are "numerous examples".

He says Matt Hancock said last summer that everyone who needed treatment got the treatment they required, when "he knew that was a lie".

He says Hancock had been part of a briefing from officials, where it was explained "explicitly" that during the first peak people did not get the treatment they deserved and "many people were left to die in horrific circumstances".

He also claims that Mr Hancock told the cabinet, just before Cummings and the PM fell ill with Covid themselves, that "everything is fine" on getting hold of personal protective equipment.

But he says when he returned from his illness, it became clear "we were completely short".

He claims that Matt Hancock sought to blame the shortages on Simon Stevens, the head of NHS England, and Chancellor Rishi Sunak.

Cummings says an investigation from the cabinet secretary later revealed Mr Hancock's claims to be "completely untrue" - with the cabinet secretary also saying he had lost confidence in Mr Hancock's ability to be truthful during cabinet meetings.

[Well b back 3,222]

They will be getting to care homes shortly @sonyc 

[Well b back 3,222]

15 minutes ago, kirku said:

Any political system that offers the choice of Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn "has gone badly wrong", says Cummings

He adds that it was "crackers" that both he and Johnson were in roles of power during the pandemic

"Lions led by donkeys again and again"

Rebecca Long Bailey's final question is about whether the wrong people were in the wrong jobs to deal with the pandemic.

Cummings says the crisis raises profound questions about a political system that gives people a choice between Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson.

He says any system that gives a choice between two people like that is obviously a system that has gone "terribly wrong".

There are so many people who could have done a better job than those two he says.

He found himself it "completely crazy" that he himself was in such an important position because he is "not smart".

It is "completely crackers" that he and Boris Johnson were in these prominent positions.

It was "lions led by donkeys" with great people on the ground but the leadership let people down on the front line.

[Well b back 3,222]

Recap of what we have learned so far

There have been some dramatic developments as Dominic Cummings continues to give evidence - here's the headlines: 

• Dominic Cummings says the Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, should have been fired for "lying" about preparedness to deal with the virus and whether people were getting the treatment they need
• He says Hancock tried to blame PPE shortages on Simon Stevens, the head of NHS England, and Chancellor Rishi Sunak
• The prime minister was more concerned about the economic damage because he did not think the virus was "the big danger"
• Reports that Rishi Sunak put the breaks on a lockdown are "completely wrong"
• A political system that gives people a choice between Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson is "terribly wrong" and creates a situation of "lions led by donkeys"
• There was chaotic decision making inside No 10, like "an out of control movie"
• He says on Friday 13 March a senior official Deputy Cabinet Secretary Helen Macnamara came to him and said, “I think we are absolutely f***ed. I think this country is heading for a disaster. I think we are going to kill thousands of people”
• He says Covid planning meetings were derailed by dealings with Trump, and the PM's girlfriend wanting the No 10 press office to deal with media reports over the PM's dog 
• Cummings says the PM regarded Covid as a "scare story" and wanted to be injected on TV
• He says m,inisters, officials and advisers "fell disastrously short" and claims of preparedness were "completely hollow"

[Well b back 3,222]

Questioning now trying to blame scientists and advisors.

Accusing Cummings of not be interested in COVID but just here to settle scores.

[kirku 1,334]

"Hancock is interfering...with the test and trace system...to hit the numbers for his stupid target" (paraphrased)

[Well b back 3,222]

@sonyc A bit more damming than you thought.

Cummings: PM was told people going back to care homes 'would be tested'

Stringer moves on to the situation in care homes and asks why untested people were sent back in to care homes. 

Cummings says this was "one of the other things that we found shocking". 

He says when they realised in April this was the situation the PM asked "what on earth" had happened.

He quotes Boris Johnson as saying 'Hancock told us in the cabinet room that people were going to be tested before they went back to care homes. What the hell happened?'

Cummings said they "were told categorically in March that people would be tested" but he says despite the government rhetoric of putting a shield around care homes it "was complete nonsense" and quite the opposite happened. 

Graham Stringer pauses and says "that is extraordinary".

[Well b back 3,222]

A bit more for @sonyc

Cummings: Care home testing 'complete chaos'

Cummings says clearly some care home residents were tested before returning from hospital but it only happened "very partially and sporadically". 

As a result, he says people went back to care homes and infected people "and it spread like wildfire".

He says there was a "cascading series of crises" that had "a domino effect" throughout the system.

The problems were caused he says because of the "whole disaster over testing" and the shortage of PPE. 

Just as no-one had thought about how to produce the details on shielding, he says, the situation with care homes was the same.

It was a "crisis environment of complete chaos" he says.

[sonyc 5,530]

1 hour ago, Well b back said:

A bit more for @sonyc

Cummings: Care home testing 'complete chaos'

Cummings says clearly some care home residents were tested before returning from hospital but it only happened "very partially and sporadically". 

As a result, he says people went back to care homes and infected people "and it spread like wildfire".

He says there was a "cascading series of crises" that had "a domino effect" throughout the system.

The problems were caused he says because of the "whole disaster over testing" and the shortage of PPE. 

Just as no-one had thought about how to produce the details on shielding, he says, the situation with care homes was the same.

It was a "crisis environment of complete chaos" he says.

Don't forget this though.....it showed his commitment to the sector, something he himself claimed was long overdue.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Waiting for Jools, RTB, Swindon and Ricardo to refute it all.

[Well b back 3,222]

4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Waiting for Jools, RTB, Swindon and Ricardo to refute it all.

I found it hard to believe on 12/3 that there was an emergency Cobra meeting as they were realising ‘ they were f***** regards COVID  ‘ Trump had called to ask the U.K. to join them that evening in bombing Iraq, yet Boris had other things to contend with, an argument with Carrie about how her dogs were being portrayed in the press and how this was far more important. Then he quoted the what’s app messages on the day lol.

I wonder how many also would have tuned in to watch Boris being injected with COVID live on TV. Would it have got higher ratings than live coverage of him in ICU fighting for his life. It all makes sense when you hear that Boris was bragging about going to places where COVID was present and shaking hands with people.

[sonyc 5,530]

10 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Waiting for Jools, RTB, Swindon and Ricardo to refute it all.

I don't believe some folk can be critical of this government. Whatever happens.

It would help if folk might find fault even if occasionally, because it brings a message board more balance. I've been critical of folk on the left of our politics when I've found fault for example, trying to be fair minded.

The one thing that appears to have united this messageboard is everyone's dislike for Bournemouth FC!

[Well b back 3,222]

9 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I don't believe some folk can be critical of this government. Whatever happens.

It would help if folk might find fault even if occasionally, because it brings a message board more balance. I've been critical of folk on the left of our politics when I've found fault for example, trying to be fair minded.

The one thing that appears to have united this messageboard is everyone's dislike for Bournemouth FC!

The explosive claims made by Dominic over the last few hours cannot be ignored.

He was around the table when some of the key pandemic decisions were made – and his analysis is devastating for the Government.

He has painted a picture of a Downing Street which was too slow to act on Covid. 

He has launched an extraordinary attack on the health secretary – accusing him of failing to tell the truth and not being fit to do his job. 

He has rubbished the claims a protective shield was put around care homes as “complete nonsense”. 

He has even suggested it was crackers he and Boris Johnson were in charge of the country. 

Cummings is a controversial figure around Westminster, not least because of the impact on his lockdown trip to Durham. 

But this is first full, public account of what went on in No 10 during this crisis. It leaves Boris Johnson and his ministers with a number of serious questions to answer.

[sonyc 5,530]

7 minutes ago, Well b back said:

The explosive claims made by Dominic over the last few hours cannot be ignored.

He was around the table when some of the key pandemic decisions were made – and his analysis is devastating for the Government.

He has painted a picture of a Downing Street which was too slow to act on Covid. 

He has launched an extraordinary attack on the health secretary – accusing him of failing to tell the truth and not being fit to do his job. 

He has rubbished the claims a protective shield was put around care homes as “complete nonsense”. 

He has even suggested it was crackers he and Boris Johnson were in charge of the country. 

Cummings is a controversial figure around Westminster, not least because of the impact on his lockdown trip to Durham. 

But this is first full, public account of what went on in No 10 during this crisis. It leaves Boris Johnson and his ministers with a number of serious questions to answer.

Completely agree WBB but I simply believe that it will be tomorrow's fish and chip paper. Nothing seems to stick with all this. The reckoning will come in maybe 5 or 10 years time. People will not forget this period of our politics but for the moment people want to get through a pandemic and don't really want to find fault in strategy. They simply want a solution. That's why there is still such support for Johnson.

We are, more importantly, getting a real insider view of the arrogance of power, the great distance between leaders in the decision making of our country and the every day concerns of the general populace. We are seeing what a populist government is made up of, how it operates. It's a bit chilling really.

Edited May 26, 2021 by sonyc

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

Very very sadly none of this shocks me.

If you vote for self serving unprincipled liars and charlatans you get liars and charlatans.  

It is quite clear that an incompetent government based on falsehoods was never going to be able to a manage a pandemic. 

Lastly, I rather suspect that now C u m m i n g s has roasted Hancock for dessert he'll roast Johnson. Isn't even half time yet.

By the way - anybody over 80 or in a care home here ? 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Yellow Fever

[Well b back 3,222]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Very very sadly none of this shocks me.

If you vote for self serving unprincipled liars and charlatans you get liars and charlatans.  

It is quite clear that an incompetent government based on falsehoods was never going to be able to a manage a pandemic. 

Lastly, I rather suspect that now C u m m i n g s has roasted Hancock for desert he'll roast Johnson. Isn't even half time yet.

By the way - anybody over 80 or in a care home here ? 

Regards the care homes, Cummings has just admitted guilt. Action ( as I understand it ) had already begun via family members of people that died in care homes. Has Scotland not already got some cases ?.

The committee actually asked Cummings if he had evidence that Hancock lied. He shew evidence of at least 2 instances where he could prove it ( suspect there are many more ). On seeing this the chairman said this is very serious if these allegations are true and wished to have forwarded to him all proof. At least 2 questionnaires then mentioned corporate manslaughter, and that was before they got to care homes.

[sonyc 5,530]

 

[Well b back 3,222]

Not sure on this but are you not allowed to lie to Parliament ? That is a genuine question as didn’t Starmer deliberately get him to use those words ?
 

Downing Street and the government are facing some really serious allegations.

Among them, are whether the PM made comments about seeing "bodies pile high" rather than take the country into a third lockdown.

The BBC reported the comments in April - but the prime minister denied making them in Parliament.

Cummings - however - has told MPs he DID hear the prime minister make the comments.

"I heard that in the prime minister's study" he said.

Boris Johnson is now likely to face more questions about whether he made the remarks - and if he misled Parliament by denying them.

[Well b back 3,222]

Gosh, this is quite a claim, he has evidence for everything said so far so I guess he has some for this

Cummings paints difficult relationship with PM's partner

Asked about his departure from Downing Street late last year, Cummings says it was "definitely connected to the fact that the prime minister's girlfriend was trying to change a whole bunch of different appointments in No 10 and appoint her friends to particular jobs".

"In particular, she was trying to overturn the outcome of an official process about hiring a particular job in a way which was not only completely unethical but which was also clearly illegal".

"I thought the whole process about how the prime minister was behaving at that point was appalling, and all of that was definitely part of why I went."

[Well b back 3,222]

Cummings: I thought the PM was 'unfit for the job' when I quit

Cummings says his relationship with the prime minister "took another terrible dive" after the second national lockdown in October, because the PM "knew I blamed him for the whole situation."

He says Boris Johnson's girlfriend, Carrie Symonds "wanted rid of me".

But "relevant, but not the heart of the problem", he says, was that by this point he regarded the PM as "unfit for the job", and he was trying to "push other things through, against his wishes".

[horsefly 4,303]

25 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

By the way - anybody over 80 or in a care home here ? 

Jools

[Herman 9,780]

58 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Waiting for Jools, RTB, Swindon and Ricardo to refute it all.

I think they are busy writing apology letters to those who have been telling the truth. 😉

[Well b back 3,222]

Like him or loathe him ( I come into the loathe ) he is a very clever man, and his reverse psychology saying he was not smart but running the country was very clever.

Who else gets the impression he is currently mentioning the tip of the iceberg and has some major revelations that go way beyond this to release when the time is right ?, you just feel he has much worse concerning something like national security or Brexit up his sleeve.

[horsefly 4,303]

Interestingly, what Cummings is claiming now, with his contemporaneous inside knowledge of the sequence of events, squares very well with what many government critics were claiming at the time (including many people on this site).

[Well b back 3,222]

1 minute ago, horsefly said:

Interestingly, what Cummings is claiming now, with his contemporaneous inside knowledge of the sequence of events, squares very well with what many government critics were claiming at the time (including many people on this site).

And were silenced.

[Well b back 3,222]

I should have tried to force PM into lockdown - Cummings

Cummings says that before leaving post, he had decided to stay to "stop any many people dying as I could do" - but it was "obvious" after the second national lockdown "that I was going to be gone within days".

But he says he "terribly regrets" that during the period when the PM was considering whether to have an autumn lockdown, he did not threaten to resign within 48 hours.

He says he should have offered to go "quietly" if the PM agreed to impose another lockdown, or if not to call a press conference and tell the public the PM was making a "terrible decision".

"I should have gambled on holding a gun to his head, essentially".

[Well b back 3,222]

One for @sonyc wow

Cummings: Hancock used scientists as 'shields' for himself

Cummings is asked whether the prime minister was focused on the job. 

He says the PM had various distractions back in February 2020 in his personal life - he was finalising his divorce, his girlfriend was pregnant and he had his engagement. 

Moving on to the health secretary, he says Matt Hancock used Sir Patrick Vallance and Prof Chris Whitty as "shields" for himself. 

He said the attitude was "if things go wrong, blame the scientists". 

He is asked again why Hancock was not sacked and he says the PM was told to keep him in his role "because he is the person you fire when the inquiry comes along". 

Cummings says he argued this would cause another set of disasters in the autumn and he advised "we have got to get rid of this guy now".

[Well b back 3,222]

With actual evidence of what Hancock did and didn’t do to hand, I wonder how he will handle his meeting with the enquiry in 2 weeks time. Will he be sacrificed before then ? Or will he be forced to appear, with the likes of Johnson claiming they knew nothing of what Hancock was doing so we have removed him from his post.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, Well b back said:

With actual evidence of what Hancock did and didn’t do to hand, I wonder how he will handle his meeting with the enquiry in 2 weeks time. Will he be sacrificed before then ? Or will he be forced to appear, with the likes of Johnson claiming they knew nothing of what Hancock was doing so we have removed him from his post.

Real predicament. If Boris sacks him then its an admittance. If he keeps him then he is going to be asking questions for weeks to come.

[Mr Apples 1,320]

19 minutes ago, Herman said:

I think they are busy writing apology letters to those who have been telling the truth. 😉

Lions ignored by donkeys? 🤭🤣

Apples