Exam Results

[kick it off 1,952]

Andddddddddddd it's official. Just call me Nostradamus.

https://news.sky.com/story/exams-u-turn-teacher-grades-to-be-used-in-england-and-wales-as-algorithm-scrapped-12051173

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

51 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I don;t think its rigged to benefit state schools and indeed the way it has been portrayed in the media as benefiting those schools has I think been misleading, there are a lot of pupils from independent schools who have had results downgraded. Possibly in some cases less than in the state sector but that's likely to be because there are historically less lower grade in the top independent schools. But they have been downgraded. 

It's to do with cohort size really because of the idiotic algorithm that was imposed. 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Sorry that should say rigged to benefit private schools. 

I assumed that was the case 😀 and TBH you are probably right, although with a government as ideological (and malign) as this one its hardly surprising that people are suspicious, and the government's extreme reluctance to right such obvious injustice to so many pupils is hardly re-assuring that it was accidental either, so however you assess it the whole thing stinks.

But generally it is c*ck-up rather conspiracy 19 times out of 20 and for this most incompetent of governments it's probably 99 times out of 100.

But as Bill has already said, conspiracy or c*ck up is pretty much a moot point for the kids who hasve been put through an absolute nightmare and the universities which are now going to have to pick up the pieces - quite a tall order when they've already got a very complex job to organise themselves for the number they were expecting previously.

[Jools 584]

On 15/08/2020 at 15:58, kick it off said:

As I said on another thread, Gavin Williamson is an incompetent ****.

GCSEs will have the same fiasco and then they'll u-turn and go with teacher assessed grades in a few weeks. Nailed on.

Just imagine the stupidity of a man who has essentially said we can't trust teachers considered and meticulously thought out grades (yes they were inflated but remember teachers are assessing ability not performance on the day in a one off exam). Instead of that approach which was consistent and clear across the country, we'll put in an algorithm to ensure private schools benefit and poor kids are screwed over. To counter this, we will pay for all appeals against our made up grades, and we'll use mock exams which are used in totally different ways at different schools, many schools only sitting partial papers for mocks.... oh yeah and the people that marked those mocks which are wildly variable and inaccurate are the very teachers whose measured and considered grades we said we couldn't trust.

The guy is a ****. Par for the course in this shambles of a govt though.

I don't recall your being so outraged at Labour when they campaigned against teacher predicted grades last summer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49330720

 

 

[Van wink 2,994]

20 minutes ago, kick it off said:

Andddddddddddd it's official. Just call me Nostradamus.

https://news.sky.com/story/exams-u-turn-teacher-grades-to-be-used-in-england-and-wales-as-algorithm-scrapped-12051173

Had to happen. What a total farce.

[kick it off 1,952]

2 minutes ago, Jools said:

I don't recall your being so outraged at Labour when they campaigned against teacher predicted grades last summer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49330720

I don't recall a global pandemic last summer either, nor do I recall an algorithm being the alternative when they suggested this.

I actually agree with that specific reform - it's a nonsense of a system for university admissions, of course it was a far better system before Michael Gove took away modular examination (AS levels) which were a concrete piece of evidence that worked in conjunction with teacher predicted grades.

My comment you quoted is clearly aimed at the situation now and how it has been handled. You clearly have no understanding of the nuance between predicted grades and centre assessed grades, but I won't hold that against you as I doubt many outside of the education sector understand the difference.

I think it is clear though, that I've clearly explained why I feel Centre assessed grades are the best objective outcome at this point in time. I have never stated they are a panacea of assessment.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

8 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

I assumed that was the case 😀 and TBH you are probably right, although with a government as ideological (and malign) as this one its hardly surprising that people are suspicious, and the government's extreme reluctance to right such obvious injustice to so many pupils is hardly re-assuring that it was accidental either, so however you assess it the whole thing stinks.

But generally it is c*ck-up rather conspiracy 19 times out of 20 and for this most incompetent of governments it's probably 99 times out of 100.

But as Bill has already said, conspiracy or c*ck up is pretty much a moot point for the kids who hasve been put through an absolute nightmare and the universities which are now going to have to pick up the pieces - quite a tall order when they've already got a very complex job to organise themselves for the number they were expecting previously.

I agree. We are in unprecedented times and I think therefore a degree of benefit of the doubt has to be given at times but for me this is not one of them. The concern/issue is that this government does not appear to have anyone in it who is able/capable or feels comfortable to point out even the most blatantly obvious issues.

Someone, somewhere (in Ofqual or government or both) should have said, hold on a second we can;t be downgrading kids based on historic results for other pupils at their school and pointed out that its not morally or possibly legally sound. If someone is doing that then they seem to be routinely ignored. It should have been picked up at the outset and it certainly should have been picked up once the algorithm had been run and the outcomes of it became clear.

If they really though teachers were inflating grades at specific schools then Ofqual should have reverted to those schools before releasing the grades to try and moderate the grades. I'm sure some kids have ended up with better grades than they might have got because the jeopardy of the exams has been taken out of the system but to be honest, in this instance, that's a better outcome than unfairly punishing students and denying them their uni places. 

[Bill 1,788]

25 minutes ago, Jools said:

I don't recall your being so outraged at Labour when they campaigned against teacher predicted grades last summer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49330720

yes, we all remember the inability of students to take exams in the spring of 2019

[Yellow Fever 3,783]

Another Cummings /Johnson Calamity.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Another Cummings /Johnson Calamity.

Yes - the obsessive reliance on data/algorithms over individuality has the hallmarks of Cummings all over it. 

[Surfer 1,547]

Welcome to your future lads - “government” that is not intended to efficiently administer anything, but to create chaos to allow further consolidation of power. You are tracking the actions in the US by about 2 years, but that gap is closing, so they are apparently good at something.....

Edited August 18, 2020 by Surfer

[Jools 584]

9 minutes ago, Bill said:

yes, we all remember the inability of students to take exams in the spring of 2019

I also recall Labour being clear it did not trust teachers to hand out grades as recent as last April:

https://www.fenews.co.uk/fevoices/44890-direction-issued-to-ofqual-about-calculating-summer-2020-grades-in-lieu-of-exam-results

Angela Rayner MP, Labour's Shadow Education Secretary, commenting on the government's announcement about school exams, said:

"Hard working students rightly want a fair mark for their work and deserve more clarity and leadership than we're getting from the government, which all too often during this crisis seems to be a step behind what is needed.

"We have always said predicted grades are not always accurate, and can disproportionately affect the children who need the most support, and we pushed ministers to ensure students can sit an exam later if they wish.

"Labour is writing to the Education Secretary for more details. It is crucial that pupils, teachers and parents know what the action plan is."

[Herman 9,764]

9 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes - the obsessive reliance on data/algorithms over individuality has the hallmarks of Cummings all over it. 

Aye, he was Gove's right hand man after all and he loves his AI.

[sonyc 5,517]

The least unexpected U turn so far (in a whole first 11 of U turns)?

[Yellow Fever 3,783]

And now, brought exclusively to you by Johnson & the Brexiters - our next fiasco, U-turn, fib and outright lie is ..... 

I just daren't think what catastrophe will be next ....

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

45 minutes ago, Herman said:

Aye, he was Gove's right hand man after all and he loves his AI.

I seem to remember that Jools likes his AI as well and apparently believes that the UK are world leaders in it - echoes of the idiot Johnson there although I think Jools might have got that one in first 😀

Anyway lads, welcome to the real world 😂😂

[Icecream Snow 761]

10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

And now, brought exclusively to you by Johnson & the Brexiters - our next fiasco, U-turn, fib and outright lie is ..... 

I just daren't think what catastrophe will be next ....

Sadly I think this one might have some life left in it. BBC reporting that the U-turn is too late and that some university courses are already full.

Caps removed on university places - Williamson

Education Secretary Gavin Williamson has confirmed that he will remove caps on university places across England, so that universities could “flex and expand” the number of students able to attend and would not be fined for breaching the original cap.

He said that students who would now see their grades go up, would be able to ask their first-choice university if their place could be reinstated. But he said “it is ultimately the universities that control their own admissions policies.”

Mr Williamson also declined to award himself a grade for his management of the process. “I always say, best not to grade yourself, it’s for other people to mark your homework.”

[Barbe bleu 826]

5 minutes ago, Icecream Snow said:

Sadly I think this one might have some life left in it. BBC reporting that the U-turn is too late and that some university courses are already full.

Caps removed on university places - Williamson

Education Secretary Gavin Williamson has confirmed that he will remove caps on university places across England, so that universities could “flex and expand” the number of students able to attend and would not be fined for breaching the original cap.

He said that students who would now see their grades go up, would be able to ask their first-choice university if their place could be reinstated. But he said “it is ultimately the universities that control their own admissions policies.”

Mr Williamson also declined to award himself a grade for his management of the process. “I always say, best not to grade yourself, it’s for other people to mark your homework.”

Wasn't this always going to be the problem though?

 Universities have a finite number of spaces (on courses and in accommodation) and I assume always give more offers than spaces in the expectation that some students will, literally, not make the grade. With record results this year was it not inevitable that the elite universities might struggle to cope?

And with more people going to the top what happens at a lower level? Do these universities get extra funding to compenste for the upwards loss of students ?

 

[BigFish 1,986]

1 hour ago, Jools said:

I also recall Labour being clear it did not trust teachers to hand out grades as recent as last April:

https://www.fenews.co.uk/fevoices/44890-direction-issued-to-ofqual-about-calculating-summer-2020-grades-in-lieu-of-exam-results

Angela Rayner MP, Labour's Shadow Education Secretary, commenting on the government's announcement about school exams, said:

"Hard working students rightly want a fair mark for their work and deserve more clarity and leadership than we're getting from the government, which all too often during this crisis seems to be a step behind what is needed.

"We have always said predicted grades are not always accurate, and can disproportionately affect the children who need the most support, and we pushed ministers to ensure students can sit an exam later if they wish.

"Labour is writing to the Education Secretary for more details. It is crucial that pupils, teachers and parents know what the action plan is."

The thing is you put these Brexiteers in charge and you get epic failures, lies, incompetance and venality.

Keep posting @Jools you are just drawing attention to the failures, who they are, who voted for them and why.

 

[Bill 1,788]

So we know have a mad RWNJ defending the teachers - he'll be praising the BLM marchers next

Strange and twisted positions these cranks get themselves into 🤪

[Icecream Snow 761]

51 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Wasn't this always going to be the problem though?

 Universities have a finite number of spaces (on courses and in accommodation) and I assume always give more offers than spaces in the expectation that some students will, literally, not make the grade. With record results this year was it not inevitable that the elite universities might struggle to cope?

And with more people going to the top what happens at a lower level? Do these universities get extra funding to compenste for the upwards loss of students ?

 

I'm not denying it was always going to be a difficult problem to solve. But this seems like the worst of all outcomes. They fudged a grading system, then reversed it when some universities have already filled and closed off their courses.

The government should have dumped the problem on the universities earlier, told them to find a fair method of picking the students, and potentially given deferred places for next year.

[Jools 584]

23 minutes ago, Bill said:

So we know have a mad RWNJ defending the teachers - he'll be praising the BLM marchers next

Strange and twisted positions these cranks get themselves into 🤪

My previous two posts in this thread are merely pointing out Labour's hypocrisy, nothing to do with defending teachers nor BLM.

Teachers will now give too many students higher assessments than they should be getting and 2020 A level certificates are not going to be worth the paper they're written on...

Employers like myself won't want to know about them and will do their own selection from scratch.

[Yellow Fever 3,783]

1 hour ago, Jools said:

My previous two posts in this thread are merely pointing out Labour's hypocrisy, nothing to do with defending teachers nor BLM.

Teachers will now give too many students higher assessments than they should be getting and 2020 A level certificates are not going to be worth the paper they're written on...

Employers like myself won't want to know about them and will do their own selection from scratch.

That's nonsense Jools. For those that go to University their degree will make the A levels largely irrelevant. For those going straight into jobs now the predicted or teacher grades or algorithmic of 2020 are all dubious and you'd do our own interview anyway.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Yellow Fever
typo

[BigFish 1,986]

28 minutes ago, Jools said:

My previous two posts in this thread are merely pointing out Labour's hypocrisy, nothing to do with defending teachers nor BLM.

Teachers will now give too many students higher assessments than they should be getting and 2020 A level certificates are not going to be worth the paper they're written on...

Employers like myself won't want to know about them and will do their own selection from scratch.

Keep digging, massive ****-up by the Bexiteers @Jools and the more you post on the matter the more opportunity it gives us to point this out again. We knew they were liars, we didn't know they were incompetant liars and to what a great degree. Doesn't bode well for the end of the year.

This government is not fit for purpose.

Edited August 17, 2020 by BigFish
typo *end

[kirku 1,332]

I'm getting dizzy from all these u-turns

[T 190]

13 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Keep digging, massive ****-up by the Bexiteers @Jools and the more you post on the matter the more opportunity it gives us to point this out again. We knew they were liars, we didn't know they were incompetant liars and to what a great degree. Doesn't bode well for the ned of the year.

This government is not fit for purpose.

I disagree. You have to be an incompetent idiot to support Brexit without a plan. This Brexit govt has one of the worst records in the world. Boris and his supporters will go down in history but not for the reasons they want. By sovereignty they actually mean lost in colonial racist past. Shame on the brexiteers and their supporters for all the damage they have done to the people of the UK 

[sonyc 5,517]

38 minutes ago, kirku said:

I'm getting dizzy from all these u-turns

I stated a "first eleven" of them above in a post (a pure guess) but the Guardian has helpfully listed them:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/19/covid-19-climbdowns-the-uk-governments-u-turns-and-missteps?

 

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

So now it’s “everyone gets the grades given by their teachers, unless you over achieved in which case you can keep it”. Where’s the fairness in that ?

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

I'm getting dizzy from all these u-turns

Yep, they're certainly coming thick and fast and I suspect that that will continue - the idiot Johnson and the freak Cummings seem to think that they can dispense with human experience and expertise, and run the country with a few AI geeks and a highly centralised administration in Westminister.

In other words they've created a conveyor belt being fed at one end by stupid and ill-informed ideas from Cummings, developed into policies by his second rate geeks and then dropping off the other end of the conveyor belt as ill-considered, total c*ck ups, and they show no sign of changing that approach so plenty more to come.

Still, the good news is that with this latest fiasco the Tories have come up with an innovative approach to getting youngsters, who have traditionally been pretty disinterested in politics and certainly vote in much lower numbers than their elders, suddenly interested and energised politically 😀

The even better news is that nearly all these youngsters are going to vote against the Tories just as soon as they get the chance 😂

[Yellow Fever 3,783]

5 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Yep, they're certainly coming thick and fast and I suspect that that will continue - the idiot Johnson and the freak Cummings seem to think that they can dispense with human experience and expertise, and run the country with a few AI geeks and a highly centralised administration in Westminister.

In other words they've created a conveyor belt being fed at one end by stupid and ill-informed ideas from Cummings, developed into policies by his second rate geeks and then dropping off the other end of the conveyor belt as ill-considered, total c*ck ups, and they show no sign of changing that approach so plenty more to come.

Still, the good news is that with this latest fiasco the Tories have come up with an innovative approach to getting youngsters, who have traditionally been pretty disinterested in politics and certainly vote in much lower numbers than their elders, suddenly interested and energised politically 😀

The even better news is that nearly all these youngsters are going to vote against the Tories just as soon as they get the chance 😂

Add to that their parents ! I would guess Tory focus groups (let alone the papers) had all the possible warning lights and electoral alarms ringing hence the emergency U turn.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Yellow Fever

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

Add to that their parents ! I would guess Tory focus groups (let alone the papers) had all the possible warning lights and electoral alarms ringing hence the emergency U turn.

Good point, I forgot about them 🙄

Quite a tidy number then, all things considered 😀