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Yellow Fever

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Didn't see any comments on this - yet it's way more important to our youngsters than almost any other clap-trap we talk about.

For what it's worth I think whereas there is no 'good' solution to the grading  conundrum the government has yet again made the worst possible choices  (a 'U' grade) - they should simply accept the catastrophe of their own inept making and give the children the benefit of any grading doubt.

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Didn't see any comments on this - yet it's way more important to our youngsters than almost any other clap-trap we talk about.

For what it's worth I think whereas there is no 'good' solution to the grading  conundrum the government has yet again made the worst possible choices  (a 'U' grade) - they should simply accept the catastrophe of their own inept making and give the children the benefit of any grading doubt.

good luck with that 🙄

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There was never going to be a good solution to this problem.

Some students will be happy with their results. For others hopefully the appeal process will allow them to demonstrate that the awarded grades are way off (for instance by comparison to GCSE grades) for all the others who remain aggrieved i wonder if the universities will allow late starts do that exams can be sat. 

 

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Posted (edited)

This is a cabinet of monumental idiocy. 

The day that Gavin Williamson spoke of people being elevated above their level of competence is the day that irony died.

Edited by kirku
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A government clarification. 40% of the results were not downgraded. 39% of the results were standardised though. 

No, me neither. 

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It seems to me that the people in charge are so enamoured with AI and algorithms that they want to get rid of the human touch. Computer says no sort of thing. 

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As I said on another thread, Gavin Williamson is an incompetent ****.

GCSEs will have the same fiasco and then they'll u-turn and go with teacher assessed grades in a few weeks. Nailed on.

Just imagine the stupidity of a man who has essentially said we can't trust teachers considered and meticulously thought out grades (yes they were inflated but remember teachers are assessing ability not performance on the day in a one off exam). Instead of that approach which was consistent and clear across the country, we'll put in an algorithm to ensure private schools benefit and poor kids are screwed over. To counter this, we will pay for all appeals against our made up grades, and we'll use mock exams which are used in totally different ways at different schools, many schools only sitting partial papers for mocks.... oh yeah and the people that marked those mocks which are wildly variable and inaccurate are the very teachers whose measured and considered grades we said we couldn't trust.

The guy is a ****. Par for the course in this shambles of a govt though.

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What sickens me is that the algorithmic grades for the children have presumably been, or could of been, known for many many months. Any teacher assessment of the children was generally of as last March. Plenty of time for this the most incompetent government ever to have spotted and forseen the problems!

Being kind, I suspect Covid has badly addled a few Tory brain cells from the PM Cummings down.. not that they had many to lose it seems.

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I went to the CNS and when I took my mocks I passed 7 out of 10 I sat.

I never had much desire for a college degree rather hoping for a very good trade, which I achieved.

Having been offered an apprenticeship at Jarrolds, I virtually ignored my GCE exams. And ended up with just one.

So I can see the case to be made that being assured of one thing, to have it removed could well have disastrous consequences if those assurances are altered or removed.

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Being kind, I suspect Covid has badly addled a few Tory brain cells from the PM Cummings down.. not that they had many to lose it seems.

I see no reason to be kind - Covid or no Covid we have a government of total and utter dimwits (and that is being very polite if not actually kind 😀).

Government incompetence is nothing particularly new but I can't think of a government in my lifetime that has been so consistently incompetent though some may disagree. But quite definitely we have never had one as intellectually challenged as this collection of completely useless t0ssers.

 

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2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

What sickens me is that the algorithmic grades for the children have presumably been, or could of been, known for many many months. Any teacher assessment of the children was generally of as last March. Plenty of time for this the most incompetent government ever to have spotted and forseen the problems!

Being kind, I suspect Covid has badly addled a few Tory brain cells from the PM Cummings down.. not that they had many to lose it seems.

Yes,   i can't see an objection in principle to the way it has been done but why this could not have been done in stages with a provisional 'offer' going out weeks ago I don't know.

 

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Let's hope none of the 36,520 dullards who voted for Gavin Williamson are parents of any students affected - or the 27,394 who voted for Grant Shapps may well know find themselves in 14 day quarantine because he thought 4am Sturday was the early hours of Sunday morning.

There will be those affected by PPE shortages, test and track failure and even PPE equipment returned because it was not fit for purpose. Let's hope none of those voted in this incompetent bunch of failures.

I wonder how the relatives of those who died now feel. Did any of them vote for a serial liar, whose response to the growing pandemic was to take a 12 day holiday away from his job as PM, to sort out his deceit ridden private life.

Or they will argue, the worst excess death rate in Europe and the worst economic performance in the G7 is immaterial compared to the stunning success brexit now is

"never send to know for whom the dull polled"

they are staring us all in the face - Williamson, Shapps, Patel, Jenrick, Hancock......Johnson

Each one either knave or joker ........... or both

14 million owe the rest of us an apology

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1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

Yes,   i can't see an objection in principle to the way it has been done but why this could not have been done in stages with a provisional 'offer' going out weeks ago I don't know.

 

Of course there is everything wrong in the manner in which these children have been 'profiled' and decisions taken on one of the most important set of qualifications that will affect their entire life. It is nothing short of an abuse of statistics and if Facebook or Google did it they would be rightly sued if they used that data for any material decision.

The issue is not in assuming that from one year to the next the principal features of the results data set remain the same i.e we can 'calibrate' one years exam results in terms of 'hardness' and grade boundaries against a population or 'normalization'  -  but in removing at a stroke the capability of any individual, a school or a group to improve and beat the odds whatever their mocks or previous results - even if they existed  - were! From my own memories far too many decades ago I recall one or two fellow even disruptive pupils going from mediocre to poor mock A levels to straight As (when an A was the top 5%). No chance here. There is no sure means without a common exam to reference one schools prediction or mocks to another - let alone an individual's progress, motivation and growing maturity 'when it matters' most.  

Beware of being 'profiled' in absentia yourself (Norfolk, Tory, Yokel, Brexit likely less educated) if you agree with this - without any sure means to object if you disagree  - and then promptly 'fired' ! I'm sure you'd complain vociferously. This is how many feel they've been treated!

Personally - I think ALL Universities should honour any conditional offer as unconditional as if the applicant had succeeded in achieving the required A levels whatever the failed government system comes up with. It's already totally discredited and worthless already! The same goes for employers like me 

Heaven help the GCSE cohort if they repeat the same issues next week. A good vote loser of both the parents and young adults.

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Posted (edited)

Its a shame we didn't have this discussion before the event.   I suspect that if we did there would have been a grudging acceptance that if exams are not possible then the following would need to apply:

1) the grades must be primarily determined by the teachers with recognition of grades already awarded (coursework etc)

2) there must be some form of Moderation against the (either way) enthusiasm of teachers  to both protect pupils and to protect the credibility of the grades

3) the overall awards should at least resemble the norm to ensure that other year groups are not disadvantaged

4) there must be an appeal process and pupils must be entitled to resit and not be unduly disadvantaged by doing so.

I honestly cannot see anything wrong with these as general principles.  I do see a problem here in that (4) has been compromised unnecesarily 

Edited by Barbe bleu

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This is fundamentally a systemic issue, the roots of which dates back to Gove and ****'s time at Education at the beginning of the decade. They made A Levels an exercise in separating "sheeps from goats". Modularity and course work was stripped out so only "the right sort" of student could achieve. People very much in their image. If their reforms had not taken place this crisis would not have happened. Students would have achieved modules, AS Levels and couse work against which they could be judged. Instead there is nothing objective.

The immediate answer is not moderation, norming or appeals. It is to accept the predicted grades and make more places in HE available to match. The French did it, Scotland did it but in England there is something rotton, venal and dishonest  in the heart of this government. Why more people don't see this is a mystery.

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12 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Its a shame we didn't have this discussion before the event.   I suspect that if we did there would have been a grudging acceptance that if exams are not possible then the following would need to apply:

1) the grades must be primarily determined by the teachers with recognition of grades already awarded (coursework etc)

2) there must be some form of Moderation against the (either way) enthusiasm of teachers  to both protect pupils and to protect the credibility of the grades

3) the overall awards should at least resemble the norm to ensure that other year groups are not disadvantaged

4) there must be an appeal process and pupils must be entitled to resit and not be unduly disadvantaged by doing

I honestly cannot see anything wrong with these as general principles.  I do see a problem here in that (4) has been compromised unnecesarily 

You are missing the point.

The A level 'results' are no more credible than the predicted 'A' level results as nobody sat the real Exam! They are fictional results. Fantasy.

The question is really what are they for ? For most they are for entry into University  - Universities that will have already met and interviewed those they made offers too.

Nothing this inept government can do will ever change the fact that the results of yesterday where anything other than fictions. Universities and employers alike will always treat this year as a special year. Just have to accept it.

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2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

This is fundamentally a systemic issue, the roots of which dates back to Gove and ****'s time at Education at the beginning of the decade. They made A Levels an exercise in separating "sheeps from goats". Modularity and course work was stripped out so only "the right sort" of student could achieve. People very much in their image. If their reforms had not taken place this crisis would not have happened. Students would have achieved modules, AS Levels and couse work against which they could be judged. Instead there is nothing objective.

The immediate answer is not moderation, norming or appeals. It is to accept the predicted grades and make more places in HE available to match. The French did it, Scotland did it but in England there is something rotton, venal and dishonest  in the heart of this government. Why more people don't see this is a mystery.

Its probably not that simple but sure I think universities should try to be flexible, particularly if that student has been assessed as capable at an interview.

I dont think that the overall number of places is the issue. Its places at favoured universities and favoured courses that are at a premium.

 

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3 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

You are missing the point.

The A level 'results' are no more credible than the predicted 'A' level results as nobody sat the real Exam! They are fictional results. Fantasy.

The question is really what are they for ? For most they are for entry into University  - Universities that will have already met and interviewed those they made offers too.

Nothing this inept government can do will ever change the fact that the results of yesterday where anything other than fictions. Universities and employers alike will always treat this year as a special year. Just have to accept it.

I do not think that A levels are just university entrance exams.  

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2 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Its probably not that simple but sure I think universities should try to be flexible, particularly if that student has been assessed as capable at an interview.

I dont think that the overall number of places is the issue. Its places at favoured universities and favoured courses that are at a premium.

Well they did in Scotland, they did it in France and even some  Oxford colleges have done it.

But this government would rather shaft the class of 2020 than admit another **** up.

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I do not think that A levels are just university entrance exams.  

Yes but these make-believe non results simply bring the government and the 2020 A levels into disrepute. Just admit they are compromised and go with predicted. At least that's honest.

Edited by Yellow Fever
A certificate of Predicted results.

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18 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes but these make-believe non results simply bring the government and the 2020 A levels into disrepute. Just admit they are compromised and go with predicted. At least that's honest.

But if we just went with predicted grades there would be huge inflation and would that be fair to those that were genuinely on course for their respective grade or for those that came before or after?

If i had my way schools would probably have opened in July to host exams but the decision was made by then.

No easy answers.

 

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14 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

But if we just went with predicted grades there would be huge inflation and would that be fair to those that were genuinely on course for their respective grade or for those that came before or after?

If i had my way schools would probably have opened in July to host exams but the decision was made by then.

No easy answers.

 

Out of interest how do you identify those thst were genuinely on course for their respective grade from those that weren't without a time machine / parallel universe. It's pure fantasy.

Accept them as compromised, dubious as the Universities are already doing. And no its not grade inflation as they are only indicative not absolute.

Else it seems Bigfsh is right.

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Of course these grades are compromised.  If we were honest with it we probably wouldn't bother calling them A levels and instead call them indicative school certificates or something and leave it to whoever might be interested to make of them what they will.

But they are very real to those involved.

If we are to call then A levels my solution would have been to take predictions and put them to moderation.  Give an indicative grade and then invite anyone aggrieved to appeal on the basis of whatever evidence of ability is available or 'resit' over the summer on the understanding that the best grade of the three is what is given. All in time that universities and employers have grades that are credible.

You've made my point with the time machine thing.  If I was on for an A* I would want everyone to belive it was a genuine A* and not a the teacher thinks I am quite clever and quite likes me A* and I would want a system to be set up to deliver this.

 

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2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I do not think that A levels are just university entrance exams.  

Well what do you think they are?

It seems you view is that of Gove & Cummings, that they are some precious "Gold Standard" of education. That is far from what they are. It is just a method of separating those with the "golden ticket" from the plebs. The kids know it, which is why they are so upset by this travesty. Those with money know it, which is why they use that money to buy advantage in the system. That is why public schools have remained untouched by moderation while college gradings have been decimated.

It is unfair, this cohort's teacher predictions should be accepted and Universities funded to cope. Then we should scrap A Levels & GCSE's replacing them with a system that is equitable and fit for the 21st century

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1 hour ago, Herman said:

I think we all have a sneaky feeling that they don't have a clue what they are doing. If you have children with upcoming results then brace yourselves.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/15/ofqual-suspends-a-level-appeal-criteria-hours-after-announcing-them

Yes - they clearly lack the imagination, the political intelligence let alone actual intelligence to understand what they've done and are doing. A generation of voters (and their parents) who will forever blame the Tories right or wrong for stealing their life chances!

 

Deritiely a poor D to E for the Johnson's government after normalization. Think they need an urgent resit.

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I haven’t followed things particularly closely but if someone genuinely feels they have been downgraded a couple of grades can’t they take the exam in September anyway?

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5 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

I haven’t followed things particularly closely but if someone genuinely feels they have been downgraded a couple of grades can’t they take the exam in September anyway?

That doesn't help you with university applications though.

I know of at least two friends with kids who have been told that their university will not be accepting their provisional entry as they didn't 'acheive' the predicted results.

Both kids were predicted straight A's and A*'s (and had been top students for the past 3-4 years), yet somehow one got downgraded to two A's and a B, the other an A and two B's, this despite the teachers assessments being A or A* in ALL subjects, and now they're being told to forget going to their first choice universities because some algorithm has decided to drop their grades for absolutely ZERO reason (mock results were perfectly inline with teacher's assessements as well).

The whole thing is both a joke AND a disgrace, and I'm sure I read yesterday about a half-german student who speaks fluent German and who lived there for 5 years, being downgraded from an A to a C ffs, so what chance do some of the other students stand when event blatant errors like this are not only being allowed, but somehow the govt is attempting to justify them!!!

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9 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

I haven’t followed things particularly closely but if someone genuinely feels they have been downgraded a couple of grades can’t they take the exam in September anyway?

Anyone will be able to re sit at no cost and the student will be entitled to the best grade

Whilst this clearly resolves any fairness issues an autumn re sit might not be compatible with the student's plans for next year.

This was my point earlier.  If the grades were published earlier and resits were at the start of August there could be no issue that I can see other than finding people willing to invigilate and mark.

 

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