Corona Virus main thread

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

33 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

We need keep an eye on the situation in France, not least because it is our nearest neighbour.

Macron, no doubt with an eye on the latest poll results and aware of his countrymen's propensity for civil disobedience has now resisted the need to impose a full lockdown in the country. The French have so far been notoriously poor at obeying the stringencies of a lockdown, with many cafes in Paris openly disregarding the rules and carrying on as normal. Macron has responded by simply promising to adopt a more rigorous policy towards transgression of the rules and, in particular, of the curfew.

 

My friends and former colleagues in France tell me that the lockdowns there have been have been a distinct improvement on those in the UK, in that what was and was not allowed was spelt out in clear terms with  the need for a daily permission form to justify, for example, an hour’s exercise within one kilometer of one’s home, and with strict policing. In sharp contrast to the UK lockdowns, which were framed so loosely that neither the public nor the police knew for certain what was allowed and what was not, with consequent scope for accidental disobedience but also for deliberate flouting, which is what happened.

[Aggy 755]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Judging the latest it seems that lockdowns do work. Who'd have thunk it? 😉

I don’t think anybody said they didn’t work at all did they? Merely that if you haven’t got vaccines or some other way of stopping it come back straight away as soon as the lockdown ends, then it’s only really kicking the can down the road. 

[Barbe bleu 826]

14 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

. In sharp contrast to the UK lockdowns, which were framed so loosely that neither the public nor the police knew for certain what was allowed .....also for deliberate flouting, which is what happened.

If the flouting was deliberate (and we all know this has happened a lot) it cannot be the case that the perpetrator didn't know it was unlawful.

I dont disagree that there are and always have been grey areas in law and advice but is there any evidence at all that people acting within the grey areas have contributed materially to spread?

Instinctively I think that spread is primarily a function of people acting  lawfully with a secondary element of  people deliberately breaking the law. The legal grey areas i would have thought contribute little to spread.

Besides while there is debate about what we can do, what we should do has been clear for nearly a year now 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[Aggy 755]

4 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

My friends and former colleagues in France tell me that the lockdowns there have been have been a distinct improvement on those in the UK, in that what was and was not allowed was spelt out in clear terms with  the need for a daily permission form to justify, for example, an hour’s exercise within one kilometer of one’s home, and with strict policing. In sharp contrast to the UK lockdowns, which were framed so loosely that neither the public nor the police knew for certain what was allowed and what was not, with consequent scope for accidental disobedience but also for deliberate flouting, which is what happened.

What exactly is the point of the “permission form”? You can download it yourself, it is printable (so not ‘traceable’ to check people aren’t using multiple one hour exercise forms for example) and is self certifying. I can’t imagine it’s particularly difficult to lie and get away with it. 

[BroadstairsR 2,173]

31 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

My friends and former colleagues in France tell me that the lockdowns there have been have been a distinct improvement on those in the UK, in that what was and was not allowed was spelt out in clear terms with  the need for a daily permission form to justify, for example, an hour’s exercise within one kilometer of one’s home, and with strict policing. In sharp contrast to the UK lockdowns, which were framed so loosely that neither the public nor the police knew for certain what was allowed and what was not, with consequent scope for accidental disobedience but also for deliberate flouting, which is what happened.

My information came from 'Le Monde' and was in respect of Macron's  decision not to extend towards a full lockdown, but rather to enforce existing rules more strictly.

Some will also state that the majority of the UK public has adhered to the rules well, others will cite the opposite.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20201112-new-survey-shows-more-than-half-the-french-flout-covid-19-lockdown-rules

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by BroadstairsR

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

In terms of % it looks as though UK is doing far better than EU getting the vaccine out

But look at the actual numbers.  As of yesterday UK had vaccinated approx 10.5m, EU approx 14.3m.

The vaccine manufacturers can't turn it out any faster, and the EU's population is approx 446m compared to UK approx 67.7m.  That's why the % is misleading.  

Lies, damned lies and statistics, courtesy of once trusted media outlets like the BBC.

 

So if we reach a point where the UK has vaccinated 100% and at that point the EU has vaccinated say 100m our of their 446m, would you think the EU is doing "better" ?  And what would you suggest the UK should then be doing?

 

Actually I expect the answer will be that come the autumn, we'll re-start a second round of vaccination with updated vaccines to deal with mutations in the virus between now and then, plus of course we've ordered many more doses than we need and this will allow us to make those extra doses available to other countries that need them.   The EU really should be in the same position and should have ramped up (and continue to be ramping up) the manufacturing capacity.  It's simply wrong to say they can't turn it out any faster, all the rich countries in the world should be investing in additional capacity.  We had a news release about Novavax that they're expecting to start production on Teeside in March or April, the same thing should be happening across Europe.

 

It's not a race between the UK and the EU and their bad performance on delivering the vaccine to their people has a direct negative impact on us, countries should be working together on this, we shouldn't be crowing about doing better than them.  But equally to pretend the EU is not doing badly is just complete nonsense.

 

Also of course I know countries will never get to absolutely 100% because some people can't have the vaccine due to other medication, and under18s are not being offered it so far, and so on - in practice there will come a % where a country is "fully vaccinated".

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

7 minutes ago, Aggy said:

What exactly is the point of the “permission form”? You can download it yourself, it is printable (so not ‘traceable’ to check people aren’t using multiple one hour exercise forms for example) and is self certifying. I can’t imagine it’s particularly difficult to lie and get away with it. 

It had to be signed dated and timed and addressed for the day and hour or whatever and location in question.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

We need keep an eye on the situation in France, not least because it is our nearest neighbour.

Macron, no doubt with an eye on the latest poll results and aware of his countrymen's propensity for civil disobedience has now resisted the need to impose a full lockdown in the country. The French have so far been notoriously poor at obeying the stringencies of a lockdown, with many cafes in Paris openly disregarding the rules and carrying on as normal. Macron has responded by simply promising to adopt a more rigorous policy towards transgression of the rules and, in particular, of the curfew.

The problem is that, whilst they drop in the UK, cases are on the rise in France. There were 26, 000 positive tests in the country yesterday. We had under twenty thousand.

Lorry drivers and other essentials pass between the two countries on a daily basis and, although there is a strict testing regime in force, it will not be perfect. 

I see the situation as potentially volatile, especially if something similar to the so-call Kent variant were to suddenly appear in a country that can be seen regularly from our shores on a clear day.

In addition, their vaccine roll-out has been tardy and that in a country with the highest number of vaccine sceptics on the Continent. 

Perhaps Macron could do with paying less attention to his Anglo-phobic tendencies  ( a trait peculiar to French politicians, but not necessarily the French in general) and his distaste for Brexit and start addressing the problems on his own doorstep with a greater degree of maturity.

His compromised actions might well result in more blood of his fellow Frenchmen being on his hands. We do not want them to cause more English deaths.

In general, we should want the vaccine roll-out in Europe to proceed as quickly and effectively as possible rather than gloat about it's ragged start. It is our own interests that everybody worldwide is protected as much as is possible. It need be our moral concern as well.

The absolute state of France...

[Aggy 755]

1 minute ago, It's Character Forming said:

 

 

Actually I expect the answer will be that come the autumn, we'll re-start a second round of vaccination with updated vaccines to deal with mutations in the virus between now and then,

 in practice there will come a % where a country is "fully vaccinated".

Agreed on all that but in respect of the quoted bit in particular, I would say that it’s not only about production but also about capacity to administer. If the protection lasts c. six months, we’ll be re-doing them like the flu jab every autumn. Realistically, by the time you’ve vaccinated 30m vulnerable people (potentially with two separate jabs each) you’re probably getting ready to re-vaccinate those same people again rather than vaccinating 30m healthier people. That’s unless we expand the health force significantly to basically have an annual standing vaccination force.

1 minute ago, PurpleCanary said:

It had to be signed dated and timed and addressed for the day and hour or whatever and location in question.

If I print it, sign it and date it, what’s to stop me instead going to my mate’s house and showing it to an officer if I get stopped on the way, and taking a spare for the trip home? Or taking two forms on my ‘one hour’ jog (one for 12-1 and another for 1-2) and staying out for two hours?

You’ll have people with a genuine reason for being out getting fined for nothing more than forgetting to pick up a sheet of paper before they left the house, and others who have a “fake” form getting away with breaking the rules.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

First jab on Sunday morning. Couldn't believe my luck. Well done Cornwall.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

hospitals are at risk because of ten years of under funding and cuts, selling off of lucrative ancillary service and jingoism of the worst kind after the referendum which has left the NHS bereft of fine qualified staff.

Add to that the budget cuts to pandemic equipment from 850+ million to 538 million, after a disaster pandemic exercise and damning report into it.

The emergency legislation and slap happy, ignorant attitude of political decision makers have landed us in this mess, not scientists and the sooner these hooray Henry's are disappeared the better, by non confidence votes, elections, or else.

[BroadstairsR 2,173]

15 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

It had to be signed dated and timed and addressed for the day and hour or whatever and location in question.

I added this link above which I found whilst trying to dig out the Le Monde reference to French cafe culture;

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20201112-new-survey-shows-more-than-half-the-french-flout-covid-19-lockdown-rules

I don't know much about the permission slip system, which sounds like a good idea, but complicated.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Broke -  “The UK has had the worst response to covid of anyone in Europe”

Woke - “The UK has had the worst response to covid of anyone in Europe so far”

[Van wink 2,994]

15 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

First jab on Sunday morning. Couldn't believe my luck. Well done Cornwall.

Great stuff

[ricardo 7,395]

27 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

First jab on Sunday morning. Couldn't believe my luck. Well done Cornwall.

😷👍

[ricardo 7,395]

ZOE app numbers continue steady decline.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Thanks chaps. First time in my life I have ever been excited about an injection. Remember queuing up at West Earlham community centre as a child to have have one of the mass jabs they did for Polio or something. I swear the needle was a scaffold pole.

 

 

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

21 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Thanks chaps. First time in my life I have ever been excited about an injection. Remember queuing up at West Earlham community centre as a child to have have one of the mass jabs they did for Polio or something. I swear the needle was a scaffold pole.

 

 

I remember getting the Polio vaccine as it was given on a sugar lump or if you were brave it was squirted straight into your mouth.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

This link may not work but gives a balanced view of the EU's performance re vaccination:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/04/opinion/eu-covid-vaccines.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

37 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

This link may not work but gives a balanced view of the EU's performance re vaccination:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/04/opinion/eu-covid-vaccines.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

 

I think the US, quoted alongside us, is not in a good place. They have the vaccine but no system like our NHS to vaccinate anyone.

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

I remember getting the Polio vaccine as it was given on a sugar lump or if you were brave it was squirted straight into your mouth.

 

Sugar lump for me too

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

23 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I think the US, quoted alongside us, is not in a good place. They have the vaccine but no system like our NHS to vaccinate anyone.

Thee are several quite balanced articles - this one was quite good showing the compromises taken.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/27/european-union-slow-covid-vaccination-programme

[ricardo 7,395]

5 hours ago, Herman said:

Judging the latest it seems that lockdowns do work. Who'd have thunk it? 😉

Here's a contrary view

 

[ricardo 7,395]

National

20634 - 915

positives down 25% deaths down 16% on the week

Local

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

My friends and former colleagues in France tell me that the lockdowns there have been have been a distinct improvement on those in the UK, in that what was and was not allowed was spelt out in clear terms with  the need for a daily permission form to justify, for example, an hour’s exercise within one kilometer of one’s home, and with strict policing. In sharp contrast to the UK lockdowns, which were framed so loosely that neither the public nor the police knew for certain what was allowed and what was not, with consequent scope for accidental disobedience but also for deliberate flouting, which is what happened.

TBH in the UK we are seeing very few reports of confusion about what is permitted or not under the current lockdown.  Most of the cases reported are flagrant breaches such as house parties with loads of people where it's obvious they are not permitted.  There has been one case in Derbyshire where two women drove for a few miles to a lake with takeaway coffees to meet for a socially-distanced walk and the police issued a £200 fine to each of them, which it's obvious was a case of over-zealous action by the police and after review the police have withdrawn the fines and apologised.

 

I don't really know how clear or strictly enforced the lockdown has been in France and I'm not sure how people there can feel confident their lockdowns being more strictly enforced etc... I suspect Western Europe is probably much of a muchness on this.

[Herman 9,768]

There's always a contrary view Ricardo. I tend to ignore them as I am always right. Mostly.😉

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

This link may not work but gives a balanced view of the EU's performance re vaccination:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/04/opinion/eu-covid-vaccines.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

 

Yes, a pretty fair assessment I'd say.  The big problem for me is that the EU has taken too much of a "business as usual" approach to procurement when they should have accepted an emergency approach is needed.

[ricardo 7,395]

4 minutes ago, Herman said:

There's always a contrary view Ricardo. I tend to ignore them as I am always right. Mostly.😉

Surely not😉

[Well b back 3,208]

3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Thanks chaps. First time in my life I have ever been excited about an injection. Remember queuing up at West Earlham community centre as a child to have have one of the mass jabs they did for Polio or something. I swear the needle was a scaffold pole.

 

 

Ha ha

We make it a party atmosphere as for some people it is the first time they have been outside since March. Some come in their Sunday best, don’t do that they need to get to your arm lol. As they go in we always say ‘ enjoy your jab ‘.

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

11 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Ha ha

We make it a party atmosphere as for some people it is the first time they have been outside since March. Some come in their Sunday best, don’t do that they need to get to your arm lol. As they go in we always say ‘ enjoy your jab ‘.

Here's a playlist you should consider.

Needles and Pins - The Searchers

Another Jab in the Arm - Pink Floyd

Want you So Bad - The Vaccines

Close to You - The Cure

Celebration - Kool and the Gang

Keep feeling Vaccination - Human League.