Corona Virus main thread

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Then you don't give them the choice under such circumstances. Boris claims to be led by science. He claims to be doing everything he can. Then he made a decision probably because he was too scared to cope with the fallout that would no doubt have arisen about the notion of "cancelling" Christmas.

No-one said he can be blamed for free-will decisions made by others. But the fact remains, he enabled the conditions for said decisions to be made. No amount of sophistry will disguise the liability in that.

Correct. Herman posted at the time that Johnson was the first PM to cancel Christmas since Oliver Cromwell. Today Herman blames Johnson for allowing Christmas. 

[paul moy 235]

34 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Except the death figures from the likes of Japan and Taiwan show otherwise.

Johnson has been useless, his (and indeed the whole country, as evidenced by the earlier source showing the fall-off in preparation for pandemics) lack of preparation is evident, his inability to follow a credible example is likewise evident.

We have much to learn and absorb from poor handling of this.

I've heard that there have been zero deaths on Rockall..........

[paul moy 235]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

The extent to which that really is the case is another topic, but let's just say with our frankly obsolete, ineffective, and barely democratic electoral model, I don't hold out too much hope.

So the EU electoral model of appointment would work better ?   I see.....🤣

[ricardo 7,416]

Who didn't see that one coming?

[paul moy 235]

5 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Correct. Herman posted at the time that Johnson was the first PM to cancel Christmas since Oliver Cromwell. Today Herman blames Johnson for allowing Christmas. 

Yes, I remember that... sheer hypocrisy.   

... and I also remember stating on here that some people will be regretting having a Christmas meet-up, but it was a clear choice that people made for themselves.

[Van wink 2,994]

6 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Who didn't see that one coming?

It has been out there for sometime, presumably that will mean less vaccine required, or maybe not.

This from the Guardian is quite telling 

"But for all the EU seething, its leverage may be constrained by the contracts themselves. While the commission has not published its advance purchase agreements (APAs), partly redacted details of its deal with CureVac say that “the delivery dates set out in this APA are the contractor’s current best estimates only and subject to change”, adding that “the parties acknowledge that there is a risk that … the timeline for scaling up the production of the product may be delayed”.

[Barbe bleu 834]

25 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Who didn't see that one coming?

Fair enough, In which case we should not offer our AZ stock to germany until and unless we have finished innoculating our over 64s.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

57 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Except the death figures from the likes of Japan and Taiwan show otherwise.

Johnson has been useless, his (and indeed the whole country, as evidenced by the earlier source showing the fall-off in preparation for pandemics) lack of preparation is evident, his inability to follow a credible example is likewise evident.

We have much to learn and absorb from poor handling of this.

You are right to highlight that Japan and Taiwan have low death figures but even at this stage it isn't confirmed beyond all doubt why those numbers are so good. 

Various theories have been put forward, mainly based on what is different in the culture of those two countries, but there is no empirical data that nails the root cause of their good outcomes. 

On that basis, it is very difficult to ask 'why aren't we Japan?', why isn't UK doing what Taiwan is doing? Because we haven't yet determined what they are doing so well. Likewise our European neighbours, they too are not following the Japanese model since no one has yet figured out what the model is beyond educated guesses. 

[ricardo 7,416]

Just now, Barbe bleu said:

Fair enough, In which case we should not offer our AZ stock to germany until and unless we have finished innoculating our over 64s.

I havent seen it confirmed anywhere else yet. 

[The Real Buh 3,486]

[Van wink 2,994]

4 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Fair enough, In which case we should not offer our AZ stock to germany until and unless we have finished innoculating our over 64s.

There is a logic that says our vulnerable groups should take a priority.

[It's Character Forming 1,167]

EU vaccine programme is well behind not just the UK but also the US on how far it has got so far.  Given it hasn't even approved the AZ vaccine yet, this can't be anything to do with the slow pace of EU vaccinations up till now.  Having a row with a company where you've not even confirmed your order smacks of a distraction tactic from the bigger problem.

 

It seems to be taken for granted the EU will give approval tomorrow which strikes me as wrong - if they already know it's ok, they should have approved it when they knew that.  With our approval process, we were expecting the MHRA to confirm it was approved but it was understood it wasn't a given until the actual approval came out.

[It's Character Forming 1,167]

Also the point has been made there is a concern about the 12-week gap between jabs in the UK, because in this period you have a lot of people with relatively weak immunity from the vaccine while you also have a lot of live virus cases still in the population, so this risks encouraging a vaccine-resistant mutation.  Now that we've started our vaccine programme we need to push on as fast as possible to get the whole population done (or at least enough to stop the virus being widespread).

 

We can't afford to let up now, we need maximum vaccine numbers plus continued lockdown plus travel restrictions, until we're really on top of virus numbers.  If we divert vaccine elsewhere, it's not going to make a big difference to the EU (pop 448m) but could make it longer until we get in control of the virus here.

[ricardo 7,416]

16 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

EU vaccine programme is well behind not just the UK but also the US on how far it has got so far.  Given it hasn't even approved the AZ vaccine yet, this can't be anything to do with the slow pace of EU vaccinations up till now.  Having a row with a company where you've not even confirmed your order smacks of a distraction tactic from the bigger problem.

 

It seems to be taken for granted the EU will give approval tomorrow which strikes me as wrong - if they already know it's ok, they should have approved it when they knew that.  With our approval process, we were expecting the MHRA to confirm it was approved but it was understood it wasn't a given until the actual approval came out.

The whole thing stinks of political ar$e covering.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I'm not sure the best of human nature is going to emerge from this. Never mind politicians. Joe Public in any country with good communications will know there is a vaccine available. And quite naturally wants one.

Its all very having fanfares but the downside is envy from elsewhere. Yes, we got the vaccine ordering right where others didn't, but don't think that stops Heinrich, Francois and Pablo wanting to know why they haven't.

Just as we know our Government has handled the crisis badly apart from the vaccine, these chaps will know theirs have also handled it badly.

The natural thing is for those nations to look to remedy their own mistakes. As long as we don't get embroiled in any infighting and carry on as we are, then it will get done. We aren't in the EU anymore, so don't get involved. Not unless our contract is under threat.

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

1 hour ago, paul moy said:

So the EU electoral model of appointment would work better ?   I see.....🤣

PR trumps the antiquated and useless FPTP every day of the week. 

Ask yourself why the likes of Nick Griffin and Nigel Farage managed to become MEPs but struggled with our system.

[Yellow Fever 3,844]

Just little interesting. That '8% figure want exactly wrong but just meaningless. 

https://twitter.com/olivernmoody?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1354782232876085249|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2Flive%2F2021%2Fjan%2F28%2Fcoronavirus-live-news-who-says-covid-war-can-be-won-white-house-predicts-90000-more-deaths-by-march

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

42 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

You are right to highlight that Japan and Taiwan have low death figures but even at this stage it isn't confirmed beyond all doubt why those numbers are so good. 

Various theories have been put forward, mainly based on what is different in the culture of those two countries, but there is no empirical data that nails the root cause of their good outcomes. 

On that basis, it is very difficult to ask 'why aren't we Japan?', why isn't UK doing what Taiwan is doing? Because we haven't yet determined what they are doing so well. Likewise our European neighbours, they too are not following the Japanese model since no one has yet figured out what the model is beyond educated guesses. 

Strong preparations for pandemics is bound to be a significant part of the answer. Especially as our own readiness for pandemics was severely depleted as part of austerity measures and not remedied, as noted earlier in the thread.

Even the Czech Republic got off to a very good start in terms of prevention when the mayor of Prague banned all flights from China at a very early stage, based on research out of Taiwan. They've suffered and fallen back a long way because they opened up again too soon. Fairly sure a similar pattern applies to Poland at least when it comes to opening up, although I suspect in Poland's case mass protests from new, oppressive abortion legislation may have resulted in mass protests being super-spreader events, but at that point I'll readily say I'm hypothesising.

[Yellow Fever 3,844]

5 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Strong preparations for pandemics is bound to be a significant part of the answer. Especially as our own readiness for pandemics was severely depleted as part of austerity measures and not remedied, as noted earlier in the thread.

Even the Czech Republic got off to a very good start in terms of prevention when the mayor of Prague banned all flights from China at a very early stage, based on research out of Taiwan. They've suffered and fallen back a long way because they opened up again too soon. Fairly sure a similar pattern applies to Poland at least when it comes to opening up, although I suspect in Poland's case mass protests from new, oppressive abortion legislation may have resulted in mass protests being super-spreader events, but at that point I'll readily say I'm hypothesising.

SARs had of the order of a 10% mortality at peak. Yes one in ten died! That tends to focus the mind when confronted with it's little brother both by government and by population!

[paul moy 235]

49 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

You are right to highlight that Japan and Taiwan have low death figures but even at this stage it isn't confirmed beyond all doubt why those numbers are so good. 

Various theories have been put forward, mainly based on what is different in the culture of those two countries, but there is no empirical data that nails the root cause of their good outcomes. 

On that basis, it is very difficult to ask 'why aren't we Japan?', why isn't UK doing what Taiwan is doing? Because we haven't yet determined what they are doing so well. Likewise our European neighbours, they too are not following the Japanese model since no one has yet figured out what the model is beyond educated guesses. 

A clear factor is diet which is high in low fat foods such as fish and the consequent uptake of Vitamin D as Ricardo mentioned yesterday.  

We are an obese and unfit nation with a rubbish diet and many are paying the price as this contributes to breathing difficulties with COVID.

Also, we do not readily take advice or orders as they do in those nations, and any law is met with resistance or demonstration with the subsequent failure of social distancing. 

 

 

 

[ricardo 7,416]

There can be little doubt that a healthier aged population will reap enormous dividends when the final toll is calculated. Its the elderly population that does 95% of the dying.

We eat too much of the wrong stuff here in the west and I have to admit that I am as guilty in that respect as everyone else. 

[Van wink 2,994]

37 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I'm not sure the best of human nature is going to emerge from this. Never mind politicians. Joe Public in any country with good communications will know there is a vaccine available. And quite naturally wants one.

Its all very having fanfares but the downside is envy from elsewhere. Yes, we got the vaccine ordering right where others didn't, but don't think that stops Heinrich, Francois and Pablo wanting to know why they haven't.

Just as we know our Government has handled the crisis badly apart from the vaccine, these chaps will know theirs have also handled it badly.

The natural thing is for those nations to look to remedy their own mistakes. As long as we don't get embroiled in any infighting and carry on as we are, then it will get done. We aren't in the EU anymore, so don't get involved. Not unless our contract is under threat.

I agree with a lot of this, from what I have seen our Government has tried not to get involved in the spat and held back, which I applaud, the previous gloating about our relative success however will only have made matters worse. I wish we could have just got on with the vaccination program without every minister when interviewed trying to slip in that we have vaccinated more people than the rest of Europe.  The Government believe that a successful vaccination program will save its skin, time will tell, but the constant gloating has done nobody any favours.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Van wink

[paul moy 235]

30 minutes ago, Van wink said:

I agree with a lot of this, from what I have seen our Government has tried not to get involved in the spat and held back, which I applaud, the previous gloating about our relative success however will only have made matters worse. I wish we could have just got on with the vaccination program without every minister when interviewed trying to slip in that we have vaccinated more people than the rest of Europe.  The Government believe that a successful vaccination program will save its skin, time will tell, but the constant gloating has done nobody any favours.

HMG have played a blinder on vaccines and the majority will not blame the government as they have seen evidence with their own eyes on who is spreading the disease by ignoring simple rules on social distancing, sanitisation and social mixing which were made clear from the very outset of the pandemic. 

The end-game is close for us but will continue for a long time yet in the rest of the world and all countries have made mistakes, but the EU mistakes I'm pretty sure will far outweigh ours. 

 

 

 

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

You are right to highlight that Japan and Taiwan have low death figures but even at this stage it isn't confirmed beyond all doubt why those numbers are so good. 

Various theories have been put forward, mainly based on what is different in the culture of those two countries, but there is no empirical data that nails the root cause of their good outcomes. 

On that basis, it is very difficult to ask 'why aren't we Japan?', why isn't UK doing what Taiwan is doing? Because we haven't yet determined what they are doing so well. Likewise our European neighbours, they too are not following the Japanese model since no one has yet figured out what the model is beyond educated guesses. 

Of course we haven't determined what they are doing so well because this government hasn't given it a moment's thought.

I would have thought that you, more than most, are thoroughly conversant with the theory that Britain is such a 'world beating' nation that we have no need to study or learn anything from what mere foreigners are doing - that seems to be the principle underlying most government policies nowadays and one that many of their supporters seem quite happy with - so much so that they really don't like having it pointed out that we're actually doing rather badly and have been for nigh a year now...............🙄

[JF 694]

I’m going to have a rant here as it’s as good a place as any and I need to blow off steam! We’ve received the death certificate for my father in law today and are disgusted to see covid listed within the certificate. He had terminal cancer and was admitted to hospital before Xmas with pneumonia, placed on the covid ward whilst awaiting the test results and when they came back as negative he was then moved to the cancer ward, during this time we were told the cancer had spread violently and he had a maximum of 4 weeks to live. He was then tested positive for covid but had no symptoms so was placed back on the covid ward,  We found it strange that a man in his condition would have no symptoms. He died at home of lung cancer 3 weeks into the maximum of 4 weeks diagnosis. I’m disgusted that his death is a covid statistic, it had no influence what so ever, this is not the way that these numbers should be counted. 

[ricardo 7,416]

3 minutes ago, JF said:

I’m going to have a rant here as it’s as good a place as any and I need to blow off steam! We’ve received the death certificate for my father in law today and are disgusted to see covid listed within the certificate. He had terminal cancer and was admitted to hospital before Xmas with pneumonia, placed on the covid ward whilst awaiting the test results and when they came back as negative he was then moved to the cancer ward, during this time we were told the cancer had spread violently and he had a maximum of 4 weeks to live. He was then tested positive for covid but had no symptoms so was placed back on the covid ward,  We found it strange that a man in his condition would have no symptoms. He died at home of lung cancer 3 weeks into the maximum of 4 weeks diagnosis. I’m disgusted that his death is a covid statistic, it had no influence what so ever, this is not the way that these numbers should be counted. 

Deepest sympathies JF.

I think we are going to hear a lot of similar stories in the future.

[JF 694]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Deepest sympathies JF.

I think we are going to hear a lot of similar stories in the future.

Thank you. I’m sitting here in tears to be honest. To see his death go down as a statistic for this virus is an insult to the battle he went through with cancer. He died from the diagnosis we always knew he would die with

[ricardo 7,416]

1 minute ago, JF said:

Thank you. I’m sitting here in tears to be honest. To see his death go down as a statistic for this virus is an insult to the battle he went through with cancer. He died from the diagnosis we always knew he would die with

Yes, I can well relate to that, its never easy. I am sure I speak for all on here that our thoughts are with you.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

17 minutes ago, JF said:

I’m going to have a rant here as it’s as good a place as any and I need to blow off steam! We’ve received the death certificate for my father in law today and are disgusted to see covid listed within the certificate. He had terminal cancer and was admitted to hospital before Xmas with pneumonia, placed on the covid ward whilst awaiting the test results and when they came back as negative he was then moved to the cancer ward, during this time we were told the cancer had spread violently and he had a maximum of 4 weeks to live. He was then tested positive for covid but had no symptoms so was placed back on the covid ward,  We found it strange that a man in his condition would have no symptoms. He died at home of lung cancer 3 weeks into the maximum of 4 weeks diagnosis. I’m disgusted that his death is a covid statistic, it had no influence what so ever, this is not the way that these numbers should be counted. 

Sorry for your loss JF. You have every right to feel disgusted. Very unfair of the authorities.

I had a similar experience with a single elderly neighbour a few years ago, not covid obviously, but the wrong reason put on the death certificate.

 

[Van wink 2,994]

25 minutes ago, JF said:

Thank you. I’m sitting here in tears to be honest. To see his death go down as a statistic for this virus is an insult to the battle he went through with cancer. He died from the diagnosis we always knew he would die with

 

Commiserations.