Corona Virus main thread

[paul moy 235]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Worth pointing out at the same time that Taiwan and Japan have generally done very well. Much points at poor readiness for pandemics, weak control at borders and afterwards. At the same time, the likes of the Czech Republic started off very brightly and fell back sharply when trying to free things up too quickly.

So whilst it's tougher for the UK to manage things, the likes of Taiwan and Japan are still telling counter-examples that the UK response had considerable negligence involved.

A hell of a lot tougher due to us being a major world transport hub and one of the most diverse multicultural societies in the world that mainly believes in freedom of choice, speech and democracy.  No comparison really as we have so many 'free thinkers' due to this. Taiwan and Japan take orders easily and we do not as it is not our nature. It really is perverse to compare imo.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

38 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

He is entitled to his opinion but could this not be the one day in the year where he doesn't belittle the horrors of the 30s and 40s in a cheap attempt to score some attention points on an internet forum?

Although of course, the word we can't publish is now not just pertinent to today. Its not a noun anymore. It is more like an adjective.

Lest we forget the people of Rwanda, Bosnia, Syria, Myanmar, Sudan.

[ricardo 7,395]

15 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

They are not our friends, are they! 🥴

Nations don't have friends, They have interests. (Charles de Gaulle)

[TheGunnShow 5,946]

5 minutes ago, paul moy said:

A hell of a lot tougher due to us being a major world transport hub and one of the most diverse multicultural societies in the world that mainly believes in freedom of choice, speech and democracy.  No comparison really as we have so many 'free thinkers' due to this. Taiwan and Japan take orders easily and we do not as it is not our nature. It really is perverse to compare imo.

 

Since when were Japan and Taiwan not bastions of freedom of choice, speech, and democracy?

Fact is, Britain's largely messed it up. Japan and Taiwan are also very densely populated First World island countries, but they were far better prepared for pandemics. In fact, the Japanese PM is STILL getting heavily criticised as the Japanese populace think he's been a bit sluggish to react. Taiwan's done exceptionally well considering their population densities.

On top of that, Japan didn't use lockdowns - and they also have one of the oldest populations.

The West should envy Japan’s COVID-19 response | The Japan Times
 

[ricardo 7,395]

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Since when were Japan and Taiwan not bastions of freedom of choice, speech, and democracy?

Fact is, Britain's largely messed it up. Japan and Taiwan are also very densely populated First World island countries, but they were far better prepared for pandemics. In fact, the Japanese PM is STILL getting heavily criticised as the Japanese populace think he's been a bit sluggish to react. Taiwan's done exceptionally well considering their population densities.

On top of that, Japan didn't use lockdowns - and they also have one of the oldest populations.

The West should envy Japan’s COVID-19 response | The Japan Times
 

They also have a far healthier aged population than anywhere in Europe.

Eat plenty of oily fish, high vit D levels.

[paul moy 235]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Since when were Japan and Taiwan not bastions of freedom of choice, speech, and democracy?

Fact is, Britain's largely messed it up. Japan and Taiwan are also very densely populated First World island countries, but they were far better prepared for pandemics. In fact, the Japanese PM is STILL getting heavily criticised as the Japanese populace think he's been a bit sluggish to react. Taiwan's done exceptionally well considering their population densities.

On top of that, Japan didn't use lockdowns - and they also have one of the oldest populations.

The West should envy Japan’s COVID-19 response | The Japan Times
 

They are regimented societies whereas we are not.  They are not multicultural, we are.

Massive differences between us, and wearing masks was common even before the virus. 

So as I say, there is no comparison.

... and also as Ricardo has just pointed out, they are far healthier than us due to diet, and that certainly cannot be laid at Boris's door.

 

This is a tragic story but amply sums up the major difference between us and countries such as Japan and Taiwan :

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1389966/Covid-news-christmas-rules-family-members-die-boris-johnson-lockdown

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by paul moy

[TheGunnShow 5,946]

1 minute ago, paul moy said:

They are regimented societies whereas we are not.  They are not multicultural, we are.

Massive differences between us, and wearing masks was common even before the virus. 

So as I say, there is no comparison.

 

There is definitely a comparison. One country is demonstrably competent in such matters, whilst our government is not.

[paul moy 235]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

There is definitely a comparison. One country is demonstrably competent in such matters, whilst our government is not.

Is this Boris's fault ?  

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1389966/Covid-news-christmas-rules-family-members-die-boris-johnson-lockdown

[Herman 9,787]

Yes.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1362343/boris-johnson-coronavirus-save-christmas-vaccination-centres-latest

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Herman

[TheGunnShow 5,946]

Just now, paul moy said:

Is this Boris's fault ?  

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1389966/Covid-news-christmas-rules-family-members-die-boris-johnson-lockdown

To a minor extent, absolutely. Poor leadership and unclear instructions are clear cases of where the buck ultimately stops with him. Not to mention, his government relaxed the rules for Christmas Day, and as your link states, they met up briefly (understandably - it was ultimately endorsed) on Christmas Day. He's not exactly led by example on many occasions during this, has he?

Let's put it this way, I decided NOT to meet a family friend over Christmas, although that's what we've always done as we both live on our own.

Incidentally, the family you mentioned appear to firmly believe that it is the fault of the leadership, as I quote verbatim:

"A devastated Ms Latham added: "I wish that Boris had said nobody could visit each other at Christmas," she said.

"Then to stand up and say I'm sorry for all those lives that have been lost, he hasn't got a clue.

"The Government hasn't done enough - the lockdown was too little too late. I believe they've got blood on their hands and no amount of standing there is going to change it.

"That's not going to bring my loved ones back."

 

[TheGunnShow 5,946]

Incidentally, I agree that Far Eastern cultures may, in the most general terms, be more obedient. Which therefore means that strong, effective leadership is required of our own. That doesn't exonerate our government at all. If anything, it highlights the shortcomings of leadership even more.

Edited January 27, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[Aggy 755]

36 minutes ago, Herman said:

Yes.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1362343/boris-johnson-coronavirus-save-christmas-vaccination-centres-latest

 

Come on Herman. I haven’t got any time for Moy, and have said before that the weakening of rules at Christmas was ridiculous. But surely anyone who hadn’t been living under a rock knew that if they met up with other people over Christmas they were effectively saying they didn’t care when people died, people lost jobs and children had their education ruined. Boris didn’t help, and there seems to be a pattern of them trying to blame the public for their failures, but I’ve said it before - anyone who met up at Christmas needs to have a good look at themselves, especially those who have been whinging about students, pubs, schools, joggers or anything else.

[Barbe bleu 829]

41 minutes ago, paul moy said:

Is this Boris's fault ?  

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1389966/Covid-news-christmas-rules-family-members-die-boris-johnson-lockdown

What a tragic story, huge loss for one family.

Blame is 50/50 as far as I can see.  The disease outside of the SE was underestimated and even in their reduced form the rules gave people too much leeway.

But ultimately the government didn't force people to mix and why anyone vulnerable would mix when one of the parties 'had a tickle' is utterly beyond me

 

[horsefly 4,304]

On a day in which another 1725 deaths from covid is announced compare and contrast the following:

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-01-27/covid-government-made-right-decisions-at-the-right-time-minister-says

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/28/new-zealand-covid-test-centres-quarantine-hotel-closes-auckland

 

[Herman 9,787]

7 hours ago, Aggy said:

Come on Herman. I haven’t got any time for Moy, and have said before that the weakening of rules at Christmas was ridiculous. But surely anyone who hadn’t been living under a rock knew that if they met up with other people over Christmas they were effectively saying they didn’t care when people died, people lost jobs and children had their education ruined. Boris didn’t help, and there seems to be a pattern of them trying to blame the public for their failures, but I’ve said it before - anyone who met up at Christmas needs to have a good look at themselves, especially those who have been whinging about students, pubs, schools, joggers or anything else.

It is against human nature to be this anti-social, especially during a national holiday, and people don't need much of an excuse to meet up with family and friends. If the person at the top, someone a lot still trust for some unknown reason, says it ok to meet up then people are going to take that message and use it to full advantage. It was a stupid message to put, one put out gleefully by the awful British press, just to get Johnson a good headline and now it has messed up the country. AGAIN.

Yes people need to take their own responsibilty, I certainly did, but a small percentage will take the country's leaders for their word and if they say it is ok, then it is ok.

I'm sorry but the leadership and the media of this country are desperately trying to push the blame of this disaster back on to the general public and it is sadly working. They are the ones that have failed us with weak and mixed messaging, leaving people confused and all over the place. I'm not letting them change the narrative. They are responsible and they need to step up, show some leadership or **** off.

[horsefly 4,304]

According to radio 4 this morning the UK recieved circa 4 million AZ vaccines from their Netherlands plant in the past  when they had experienced production problems in the UK. Cooperation should be the order of the day in a pandemic. I have no idea what merit there is in the EU's claim that AZ should be sharing out their vaccine manufactured in the UK. But what I am certain about is that the xenophobic EU bashing, and claiming this fiasco as a triumph for Brexit, is really quite disgusting. The RWNJs on here should note that even Boris Johnson is refusing to get involved in the dispute between AZ and the EU. We need to restore goodwill between the UK and the EU for the economic good of the country if not for reasons of straightforward moral decency.

[Aggy 755]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

It is against human nature to be this anti-social, especially during a national holiday, and people don't need much of an excuse to meet up with family and friends. If the person at the top, someone a lot still trust for some unknown reason, says it ok to meet up then people are going to take that message and use it to full advantage. It was a stupid message to put, one put out gleefully by the awful British press, just to get Johnson a good headline and now it has messed up the country. AGAIN.

Yes people need to take their own responsibilty, I certainly did, but a small percentage will take the country's leaders for their word and if they say it is ok, then it is ok.

I'm sorry but the leadership and the media of this country are desperately trying to push the blame of this disaster back on to the general public and it is sadly working. They are the ones that have failed us with weak and mixed messaging, leaving people confused and all over the place. I'm not letting them change the narrative. They are responsible and they need to step up, show some leadership or **** off.

I don’t disagree that the government has been to blame most of the way through.

But the reality at Christmas wasn’t that people took the government at their word. It’s that people took advantage. They knew they shouldn’t be meeting up, but because it was now “legal” they still did, despite knowing the risks that posed to themselves and society.  

From my social media, it looked like loads of people met up at Christmas. I am absolutely sure there are posters on this board who have whinged about students, whinged about pubs, schools, joggers, the government, eat out to help out, everything else in between and who then met up at Christmas based on a similar self-justifying argument of “its antisocial to not see people at Christmas and the government said it was okay”. Bottom line is, they all knew the risks, decided to meet up anyway and now want somebody else to blame. They’re no better than 20 year old students having a house party.

And not aiming that specifically at you Herman, but just seems to me there is a double standard across society - young people see their friends, they get slammed. Middle aged and elderly people put themselves directly at risk, which risks overwhelming the nhs, risks extending lockdown resulting in children being out of education, more businesses closing and jobs being lost, and we find excuses - it’s anti social to be apart, it’s the government’s fault. Of course it doesn’t mean the government has been blameless, but in respect of Christmas, much of it was individuals knowingly taking the risk and now wanting to blame someone else for the outcome. 

[TheGunnShow 5,946]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

It is against human nature to be this anti-social, especially during a national holiday, and people don't need much of an excuse to meet up with family and friends. If the person at the top, someone a lot still trust for some unknown reason, says it ok to meet up then people are going to take that message and use it to full advantage. It was a stupid message to put, one put out gleefully by the awful British press, just to get Johnson a good headline and now it has messed up the country. AGAIN.

Yes people need to take their own responsibilty, I certainly did, but a small percentage will take the country's leaders for their word and if they say it is ok, then it is ok.

I'm sorry but the leadership and the media of this country are desperately trying to push the blame of this disaster back on to the general public and it is sadly working. They are the ones that have failed us with weak and mixed messaging, leaving people confused and all over the place. I'm not letting them change the narrative. They are responsible and they need to step up, show some leadership or **** off.

Exactly. Victim-blaming is the chosen tactic of the powers that be to deflect from their own grievous shortcomings.

[Barbe bleu 829]

26 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Exactly. Victim-blaming is the chosen tactic of the powers that be to deflect from their own grievous shortcomings.

I think we all agree that blame should be split. The government could and should have taken a harder line than it did but the ultimate decision in who to meet wss taken by people with, in 99.9% of cases, full knowledge of the risks and possible consequences.

[Yellow Fever 3,801]

Gosh this AstraZeneca vaccine row is depressing about human nature - especially when there are some obvious partial solutions.

See this from Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/27/european-union-slow-covid-vaccination-programme

It's fairly easy to see why the EU are somewhat angry with AZ as the UK plants where indeed identified as manufacturing plants in the contract. It seems like AZ has a made a booboo or led them on!

However, let us assume for a moment that there indeed is a 60% shortfall to 31M does of the expected 80M. The EU where expecting the 80M  to be used no doubt on the original 2 dose 3 to 4 week strategy. They could especially with the latest AZ data go for 8 to 12 week full authorization and in effect double up until the supplies are better. A little statesmanship from Johnson as well (yes I know its unlikely given his 'base' supporters) with words somewhere along the line that of course we'll look to see how we can help our friends but as you know our own supplies are currently very limited and lumpy (paused vaccinations centre). He doesn't have to give numbers or dates but a little help he should.

What's the alternative - refuse to look to help - let the Chinese offer - Act exactly in the manner the ROW think the Brexwits are. Petty, nationalistic, backward looking? The result is as per the EU hints - they will 'expose' their help in funding and setting up the UK plants, the early doses of AZ in the UK came from them in good faith as to a friend. The backlash will be a ground swell of unstoppable EU public opinion against the Brits, the demand to a pause or throttling back of the now back up to speed Pfizer supplies to the UK. It is lose lose scenario for the UK.

Grows a pair of balls Johnson and act like Churchill would - or even Roosevelt as in lending a hose to us.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Yellow Fever

[Barbe bleu 829]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

 Cooperation should be the order of the day in a pandemic. 

I probably agree on this.   The EU vaccine roll out has been shambolic but as we now apparently have enough vaccine to cover our priority groups i can see the human value in us diverting our stock excess to this to help them do the same.

Sure we can all point to examples where the EU has said and proved that its priority is its own citizens and use that against them but if we took this approach more people will die. That is the stark reality 

[Yellow Fever 3,801]

3 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I probably agree on this.   The EU vaccine roll out has been shambolic but as we now apparently have enough vaccine to cover our priority groups i can see the human value in us diverting our stock excess to this to help them do the same.

Sure we can all point to examples where the EU has said and proved that its priority is its own citizens and use that against them but if we took this approach more people will die. That is the stark reality 

Well said BB - That exactly what I'm trying to say as well else heaven help us when we need their help (again)!

[The Real Buh 3,445]

How many more times are we going to have to save mainland Europe?

[Yellow Fever 3,801]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

How many more times are we going to have to save mainland Europe?

Read the articles Buh. We aren't saving them any more than they are saving us. Its just a timing/yield issue. A bit more rainwater in Wrexham last week and we'd have none. 

Had your Pfizer jab yet?

[paul moy 235]

11 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

To a minor extent, absolutely. Poor leadership and unclear instructions are clear cases of where the buck ultimately stops with him. Not to mention, his government relaxed the rules for Christmas Day, and as your link states, they met up briefly (understandably - it was ultimately endorsed) on Christmas Day. He's not exactly led by example on many occasions during this, has he?

Let's put it this way, I decided NOT to meet a family friend over Christmas, although that's what we've always done as we both live on our own.

Incidentally, the family you mentioned appear to firmly believe that it is the fault of the leadership, as I quote verbatim:

"A devastated Ms Latham added: "I wish that Boris had said nobody could visit each other at Christmas," she said.

"Then to stand up and say I'm sorry for all those lives that have been lost, he hasn't got a clue.

"The Government hasn't done enough - the lockdown was too little too late. I believe they've got blood on their hands and no amount of standing there is going to change it.

"That's not going to bring my loved ones back."

 

People were give a choice whether to get together at Xmas and were clearly warned of the dangers by the authorities. We are a democratic society and people decided they would take their own risks and go for it.

There was a two 'bubble' rule for xmas and apparently these people broke that rule.

I stuck to the rules and did not get together with anybody at xmas and so did the majority of sensible people but I did see people getting off a local train and hugging and kissing with not a mask in sight three days before xmas as they met up with friends and relatives.  We were warned and the majority took heed, as we also we applied intelligence and commonsense.  The Darwin Theory springs to mind with regard to those that did not.

Boris cannot be blamed for people's own free-will decisions and failings, just as he cannot be blamed for being first in the vaccine queue.

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by paul moy

[TheGunnShow 5,946]

1 minute ago, paul moy said:

People were give a choice whether to get together at Xmas and were clearly warned of the dangers by the authorities. We are a democratic society and people decided they would take their own risks and go for it.

There was a two 'bubble' rule for xmas and apparently these people broke that rule.

I stuck to the rules and did not get together with anybody at xmas and so did the majority of sensible people but I did see people getting off a local train and hugging and kissing with not a mask in sight three days before xmas as they met up with friends and relatives.  We were warned and the majority took heed, as we also we applied intelligence and commonsense.  The Darwin Theory springs to mind with regard to those that did not.

Boris cannot be blamed for people's own free-will decisions and failings, just as the he cannot be blamed for being first in the vaccine queue.

 

 

 

Then you don't give them the choice under such circumstances. Boris claims to be led by science. He claims to be doing everything he can. Then he made a decision probably because he was too scared to cope with the fallout that would no doubt have arisen about the notion of "cancelling" Christmas.

No-one said he can be blamed for free-will decisions made by others. But the fact remains, he enabled the conditions for said decisions to be made. No amount of sophistry will disguise the liability in that.

[Well b back 3,227]

Please don’t mix the Oxford 8 - 12 weeks with the Pfizer and Moderna 8 - 12 weeks. The Oxford data was tested at these gaps and the recommendation to regulators was 8 - 12 weeks as they felt that could increase their efficacy and it was proven with data to protect against severe COVID. The Pfizer vaccine was sent to regulators with 28 days as the gap, and there was no data after 28 days. The 8 - 12 weeks was therefore approved for Oxford, this was not a separate decision and in weighing up the risks was then put in place for Pfizer. The comments made outside the regulators were not really relevant regards Oxford.

The Oxford jab is about to go into human testing to see if the second dose as Sputnik V brings the efficacy for both up further. Oxford always said it would be highly unlikely the first versions of anyone’s vaccines would likely improve with trials.

[ricardo 7,395]

This is the sort of action you have to take if you are really serious about the problem. Thankfully we did.

UK Vaccine Taskforce 2020 Achievements and Future Strategy
End of year report

1. VTF has built an attractive portfolio of the most promising vaccines for the UK population
The VTF’s strategy to build a diverse portfolio of vaccines across different formats gives the UK the greatest chance of providing a safe and effective vaccine, recognising that many of these vaccines in development may fail. The VTF focused on vaccines that could be in the clinic in 2020, which could be manufactured at scale preferably in the UK, which had the potential to secure rapid regulatory approval and be delivered ready for deployment as rapidly as possible.

2. VTF has shaped new collaborative arrangements to ensure that successful vaccines will be distributed internationally
The COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access facility (COVAX), to which the UK has made up to £548 million available, will provide access to vaccines for lower income countries including one billion doses for developing countries worldwide. The UK through the VTF has helped to develop the COVAX facility and has shared its expertise and people with COVAX to support their global efforts.

3. VTF has supported the UK’s industrial strategy by reinforcing long-term vaccine capability to prepare the UK for future pandemics, helping to place the UK at the forefront of vaccine R&D, manufacturing and distribution, but more is needed
One of the most interesting and imaginative aspects of the VTF’s work lies in the plans it has laid for future resilience and industrial leadership in this vital area. The VTF has provided targeted funding and focus across three broad areas that support the UK’s long-term pandemic preparedness.


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944308/VTF_Interim_report_-_5th_publication.pdf

[paul moy 235]

11 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

To a minor extent, absolutely. Poor leadership and unclear instructions are clear cases of where the buck ultimately stops with him. Not to mention, his government relaxed the rules for Christmas Day, and as your link states, they met up briefly (understandably - it was ultimately endorsed) on Christmas Day. He's not exactly led by example on many occasions during this, has he?

Let's put it this way, I decided NOT to meet a family friend over Christmas, although that's what we've always done as we both live on our own.

Incidentally, the family you mentioned appear to firmly believe that it is the fault of the leadership, as I quote verbatim:

"A devastated Ms Latham added: "I wish that Boris had said nobody could visit each other at Christmas," she said.

"Then to stand up and say I'm sorry for all those lives that have been lost, he hasn't got a clue.

"The Government hasn't done enough - the lockdown was too little too late. I believe they've got blood on their hands and no amount of standing there is going to change it.

"That's not going to bring my loved ones back."

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  You conveniently forget that very many people and in high positions have been advocating against lockdowns from day one and also quoting spurious arguments such as Sweden as an example for us to ignore lockdowns. I hasten to add that I have always been pro-lockdown but due to various pressures on the economy, and from lobby groups etc, Boris has had to steer a meandering course to find a balance to try to keep the majority relatively happy.

With our vaccine program now in full flow we may come up smelling of roses yet relative to the EU debacle. We are around the 90th minute, heading to added time, while the EU game has been interrupted by failing floodlights in the 70th minute mixed in with  a touch of  arrogant refereeing incompetence. 🤣

 

[Well b back 3,227]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Then you don't give them the choice under such circumstances. Boris claims to be led by science. He claims to be doing everything he can. Then he made a decision probably because he was too scared to cope with the fallout that would no doubt have arisen about the notion of "cancelling" Christmas.

No-one said he can be blamed for free-will decisions made by others. But the fact remains, he enabled the conditions for said decisions to be made. No amount of sophistry will disguise the liability in that.

Indeed

Other festivals such as The festival of light and I believe but would stand to be corrected other religious days / festivals like Christmas were banned as indeed was the New Year. At one point he was going to allow 3 houses to mix. He left people with very difficult decisions when that decision should have been made easy for them.