Corona Virus main thread

[sonyc 5,541]

22 minutes ago, BigFish said:

That is the thing with the current lack of a plan for the new normal. Hancock is selling an app that doesn't exist and as you point out won't work for everyone, particulaly in the older vulnerable group. This needs a system of testing that is local, regional & national. This needs to be able to be focussed on critical locations. It needs testing. It needs staffing for the tracing. It needs good data. It needed to be in place weeks ago. Is there a plan for this?

Your point about local/regional and national is spot on in my opinion. Yet we seem to stop at the national level...the big politics. And to get it right you have to focus where its most needed (in discreet locations as you say). Would like / be very interested in seeing the plan.

[Van wink 2,994]

14 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Had heard it might be partly sourced by staff from the council's around the country. If BJ does act on his word to be more collaborative it will be most positive because in all my life (dare say all of us) we haven't had this kind of experience before.

 

Yes indeed, partly sourced using EHO's who historically did this sort of stuff till it was taken off them. Nowhere near enough of them though and I have heard little about the recruitment process.

I heard the future German Ambassador being interviewed on AM and I'm sure he said to do effective test and trace you needed around 100,000 tests for success in just one City. This is why its going to be a very gentle ease off for us, in any event I would expect another peak in November time, the Nightingales are there for something!!

Edited April 27, 2020 by Van wink

[Van wink 2,994]

8 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Your point about local/regional and national is spot on in my opinion. Yet we seem to stop at the national level...the big politics. And to get it right you have to focus where its most needed (in discreet locations as you say). Would like / be very interested in seeing the plan.

Local testing is being set up in Norfolk

[sonyc 5,541]

A gradual ease off hopefully. Maybe that's the best we can hope for. I'm pleased the Nightingales are red herrings. Long may that be the case.

[sonyc 5,541]

1 minute ago, Van wink said:

Local testing is being set up in Norfolk

Track and trace though? That was the thrust of my point not just local antigen testing so staff can isolate.

[Barbe bleu 832]

3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Track and trace though? That was the thrust of my point not just local antigen testing so staff can isolate.

Council staff supported by the armed forces and some easonal staff is probably the way this will go.  

Agree though that there could be layers. Perhaps a national/regional team that surge in an area as well as co ordinate

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Very awkward Panorama tonight for the Government. In fact it is gross negligence and certainly open to close investigation and maybe even prosecution in the future.

If I had lost a loved one because they ignored the advice about lack of equipment as far back as February then I would want their heads.

[ricardo 7,396]

The Swedish approach

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8261519/Stockholm-achieve-herd-immunity-Claim-Swedish-ambassador-US.html

[sonyc 5,541]

8 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Very awkward Panorama tonight for the Government. In fact it is gross negligence and certainly open to close investigation and maybe even prosecution in the future.

If I had lost a loved one because they ignored the advice about lack of equipment as far back as February then I would want their heads.

I believe there will be years of negligence claims Kg. It wasn't the plan for any government to have to handle this and this present one is unlucky to be in power at this time. They cannot politicise it either (it is someone else's fault). They will face serious questions (literally life and death) and power has never come with such responsibility in peace time. Who would want to be in their position? 

[sonyc 5,541]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

The Swedish approach

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8261519/Stockholm-achieve-herd-immunity-Claim-Swedish-ambassador-US.html

I read that. Their view is that the world shouldn't judge them now but after the pandemic. They don't know fully themselves if they've got it right which is honesty incarnate.

[Barbe bleu 832]

4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I read that. Their view is that the world shouldn't judge them now but after the pandemic. They don't know fully themselves if they've got it right which is honesty incarnate.

I'd say that if it were at 30% they probably got it more right than wrong. I would imagine that we'd see this reflected in figures going right down 

[ricardo 7,396]

6 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'd say that if it were at 30% they probably got it more right than wrong. I would imagine that we'd see this reflected in figures going right down 

However we still have no evidence of any immunity at all yet.

[Barbe bleu 832]

5 minutes ago, ricardo said:

However we still have no evidence of any immunity at all yet.

Well yes

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

"This is why its going to be a very gentle ease off for us, in any event I would expect another peak in November time, the Nightingales are there for something!!"

 

I know it's 'political' but I honestly think the 'Nightingales' was more about being seen to do something; propaganda as I heard it actually called inside the NHS;  than their actual practical use. The number of patients they have seen has been excruciatingly low - patients even being refused as in London  - the issue being of course a huge and insurmountable shortage of ICU nurses.

They are the 'white-elephants'.

[T 190]

The reports on Sweden have been in the reputable media in more detail. for weeks. The circumstances of Sweden are completely different. One of the main transmission sources is in the home. A large proportion of Swedes live  at home. Lower population density and better healthcare and they are still practicing social distancing so not directly comparable. The likes of UK and Germany would be overwhelmed.  Every needs to practice a degree of social distancing to keep within healthcare capacity.   
 

More anti body testing is required to assess infection levels and people will need to be monitored over time to establish extent and duration of immunity. More testing and data is also required to assess the impact of different restrictions. 
 

All this info is available from reputable media sources. You tube, the daily mail and pink in don’t count. 

[T 190]

Panorama reporting inadequate stockpiles despite warnings last year. No gowns or swabs. Instead emergency planning for Brexit. Apparently according to some here it is a price worth paying for nationalism. No doubt I will be attacked by the hard right for believing healthcare is more important than nationalism. Shame on them. 

[Van wink 2,994]

22 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

I know it's 'political' but I honestly think the 'Nightingales' was more about being seen to do something; propaganda as I heard it actually called inside the NHS;  than their actual practical use. The number of patients they have seen has been excruciatingly low - patients even being refused as in London  - the issue being of course a huge and insurmountable shortage of ICU nurses.

They are the 'white-elephants'.

Wait and see what happens with them later in the year

[Barbe bleu 832]

53 minutes ago, T said:

The reports on Sweden have been in the reputable media in more detail. for weeks. The circumstances of Sweden are completely different. 

I think that this one is new because its the first report to give such a high level of recovered people.

True things are different in Sweden and what works (or does not) there wont necessarily work (or not work)here but it's probably the best model we've got as to how a relaxation might effect us. And of course the prospects of a person gaining longer term immunity.

[Pugin 601]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Very awkward Panorama tonight for the Government. In fact it is gross negligence and certainly open to close investigation and maybe even prosecution in the future.

If I had lost a loved one because they ignored the advice about lack of equipment as far back as February then I would want their heads.

 

The worst thing about this is that it will cause the Government to re-double its efforts to reform the BBC, as it seeks to control the output of our only true liberal broadcasting outlet. Dominic and Boris will be referring to the Trump playbook and adding a few ideas of their own. 

[sonyc 5,541]

A view from John Crace.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/27/a-deflated-johnson-struggles-to-muster-his-usual-ebullience?

 

[Herman 9,819]

11 minutes ago, Pugin said:

 

The worst thing about this is that it will cause the Government to re-double its efforts to reform the BBC, as it seeks to control the output of our only true liberal broadcasting outlet. Dominic and Boris will be referring to the Trump playbook and adding a few ideas of their own. 

They have allegedly stopped the Sunday Times from asking any questions during the covid briefings. Trumpian and petty. Even Piers Morgan was investigated by ofcom because of his robust questioning of a government minister. 

[Pugin 601]

1 minute ago, Herman said:

They have allegedly stopped the Sunday Times from asking any questions during the covid briefings. Trumpian and petty. Even Piers Morgan was investigated by ofcom because of his robust questioning of a government minister. 

Yes, Piers is behaving just like a man who has discovered a social conscience. There is most certainly disharmony in the spheres, and no mistaking.

[ron obvious 1,514]

https://www.hsj.co.uk/exclusive-deaths-of-nhs-staff-from-covid-19-analysed/7027471.article#.XqdEDHgrGaA.twitter

[Bill 1,788]

1 hour ago, Pugin said:

The worst thing about this is that it will cause the Government to re-double its efforts to reform the BBC, as it seeks to control the output of our only true liberal broadcasting outlet. Dominic and Boris will be referring to the Trump playbook and adding a few ideas of their own. 

I would suggest the opposite will be true.

I think you will find that it will be understood that any attacks in that direction will bring to mind attacks on the NHS before this crisis. Tory MPs cheering a vote to block paying nurses.

The mood will and I suspect already id similar to post war Britain where folk will want a change. Avoid going back to the 'old ways'. Too many have been working as volunteers. Too many will have had it shoved in the face where they really are. One wage payment from poverty And too many will have been shown who and what are really important to them, and society.

The questions will be asked, despite attempts to shut them down here and elsewhere. Too many will know they were lied to.

When the likes of Piers Morgan have jumped ship because he can see which way the wind is blowing then you know there has been a sea change in attitudes.

[sgncfc 1,253]

Whatever next? A government openly lying and with no plan? Suggesting that things are better than they are and still not planning for opening lockdown?

Todays was even better - non-Covid sufferers should please use the NHS as normal. Seriously? Try getting a referral to anywhere from your GP - there's nowhere to refer to, you complete morons! In fact, try getting to actually see a GP. The ONLY way to get any actual treatment is to call 999.

This government is surpassing all previous efforts at being incompetent and very few people in the media are being allowed to dissent.

 

[Bill 1,788]

And to underpin that I found

" Pollsters YouGov found that a majority of the public support paying people a universal basic income to ensure their financial security, introducing a jobs guarantee to keep employment stable, and bringing in rent controls to limit housing costs. "

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-poll-universal-basic-income-rent-control-job-safety-a9486806.html

And the deeper folk are exposed to how precarious their financial existence is the more they will question stories about supposed nonexistent 'magic money trees' that sudden;y spouted up over night recently.

And as the lies are exposed I think people are going to be more receptive to listening this time around. It is not about sending naughty Pavel home, but seeing Paul lose his home.. It is not Yakob who has been taking your money, but Jacob (Rees-Mogg).

It will be the recognition that much of the work on the frontline has been carried out by migrant labour and those on  the minimum wage. The wealthy have fled to their second homes;

Those that have been put up as the buffers for people's anger have been the police who have seen their numbers cut by 20,000.

We need to come out of this looking forward, and building a better and fairer society

[Pugin 601]

You are assuming an informed and intelligent electorate who are politically motivated and capable of effecting changes. 

The reality is that dominant swathes of society have fallen for Boris's floorshow. They are fond of the way in which he bimbles through life. They think he is sincere and they trust him. They will continue to forgive him his sins and will continue to allow the insidious Cummings and Patel to call the real shots. In terms of influencing opinion, Steve Bannon is still their guru. 

It's all well and good talking about the Sunday Times' exposé, the Panorama revelations, or the great investigative journalism of the Independent, but these are the information providers of choice for a very small minority of the population. 

[T 190]

9 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I think that this one is new because its the first report to give such a high level of recovered people.

True things are different in Sweden and what works (or does not) there wont necessarily work (or not work)here but it's probably the best model we've got as to how a relaxation might effect us. And of course the prospects of a person gaining longer term immunity.

I’d agree could be model for future. Basic social distancing and hygiene is likely to remain.  I think we do know recovered people generally from those that have been tested as you know confirmed cases, deaths and those in hospital do not really new. But we don’t   have good info on infection rates and immunity  So info on approach to restrictions is limited and as you say situations are not comparable so what works for Sweden would not make sense for London  

What I’m seeing elsewhere in countries starting to lift restrictions doesn’t look that different to Sweden in practice    It will be gradual shares of grey  Shops opening with social distancing. Schools opening with social distancing.  Production opening with social distancing  Offices putting in place measures to reopen with social distancing with say 50pc capacity with rest working from home  

Home working looks to be the new normality with Germany talking about giving staff indefinite right to work from home  And I’m also not seeing any pressure to return to the office as decision makers see that not an issue and older and more at risk themselves while younger staff with less home space and less risk keen to be back in office  I can see permanently smaller offices  

There will not be a return to the previous normality any time soon but a new normality some of which will remain  permanently  

LK saying Boris is best govt communicator. Since when does waffle count as good communication. What is wrong with clear factual information. I’m amazed people fall for it. There is no way he could work in business as there is no substance. But at least it isn’t harmful like the hard right poster boy Trump. Still in the balance with Biden. US public even more gullible. 

[lake district canary 4,542]

8 hours ago, Herman said:

They have allegedly stopped the Sunday Times from asking any questions during the covid briefings. Trumpian and petty. Even Piers Morgan was investigated by ofcom because of his robust questioning of a government minister. 

That would be because of the interviews where he refuses to let his interviewees finish a sentence, just carrying on his accusations without allowing any comeback.   It is almost unwatchable - unless people's only interest is seeing one sided arguments which appeal to their agenda.  The interviews with Helen Whately were pretty disgusting, pushing for simplistic answers to complex questions that every time she tried to explain context she was not allowed to finish.

I'm sure some people want simplistic answers and want to think the worst of tory ministers, but Morgan's speciality of shouting down anyone who wants to put a different point of view to him is anti-information and a form of total non-journalism.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,579]

11 hours ago, sonyc said:

I read that. Their view is that the world shouldn't judge them now but after the pandemic. They don't know fully themselves if they've got it right which is honesty incarnate.

There was a report on Bloomberg which highlighted some of the differences between Sweden and some other countries in terms of lockdowns.

Apparentty the country has a high percentage of single people, a high percentage of people who already worked from home, and a high level, certainly compared to elsewhere, of trust in the government, and so an ability and a willingness to obey its advice and self-enforce distancing and preventative measures.