The Positive Brexit Thread

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

😂 So there you go @Rock The Boat, it isn't just me that thinks Johnson is economically illiterate even his natural supporters in the right wing thinktanks say not only is he economically illiterate but 'vacuous' to boot 😂

Johnson's speech condemned by Thatcherite thinktanks as 'vacuous and economically illiterate''

You're backing a complete duffer and trying to defend the indefensible - think you may end up as the last man standing because he seems to be getting precious little support from anyone else.

[horsefly 4,300]

6 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

😂 So there you go @Rock The Boat, it isn't just me that thinks Johnson is economically illiterate even his natural supporters in the right wing thinktanks say not only is he economically illiterate but 'vacuous' to boot 😂

Johnson's speech condemned by Thatcherite thinktanks as 'vacuous and economically illiterate''

You're backing a complete duffer and trying to defend the indefensible - think you may end up as the last man standing because he seems to be getting precious little support from anyone else.

They're spot on! The idea that you simply banish foreign workers and somehow the nation will be magically transformed into a high wage, poverty free economy doesn't even merit calling a schoolboy's level of economic understanding. It reflects a complete abandonment of any attempt to manage the economy at all. Starmer called Johnson a "trivial man", and this catastrophic approach demonstrates exactly the truth of that sobriquet.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I despised Thatcher with a vengeance but she did have guts to stay with her misguided convictions.

This clown,  who runs for the hills whenever there is a crisis, is a kipper. Two faced and no backbone.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

It is impossible to work out what it means when you don't know what will replace it - zero immigration was never even suggested as the answer. Throughout at least 5 years of the non-existant 6 years you keep referring to we were told that FoM would be replaced by an immigration system that reflected the country's needs - that, like pretty much everything else, this government has said about Brexit was a lie as the new system they brought in does nothing of the sort.

This isn't just about lorry drivers - we have a massive shortage of nurses and in 2015, and I think pretty much every year since the government has promised to recruit an extra 50,000 nurses. We now have less nurses than we did in 2015!!!

Changes are definitely coming but many not for the better and none of them have been planned - that is just a ludicrous narrative dreamt up in the last fortnight by the Tories as a pathetic fig leaf for the shambles they've created.

Of course in the long run if certain occupations which are currently underpaid get a boost in wages that will be a good thing but no sane, or even semi-competent government would go about it the way this one has and in any case with inflation running ahead (and looking to rise a lot faster still) of pay rises then the pay rises are actually pay cuts for the vast majority.

We are not heading for a high skills, high wage economy as the economically illerate buffoons are trying to claim, we are heading for high inflation and a stagnant economy.

 

All of that is true. This is implicit but it may as well be spelled out. What Johnson is promising is a massive socio-economic change. Now there have been some post-war prime ministers who could have had a decent stab at achieving such a thing. Indeed arguably Attlee and Thatcher, in different ways, did just that. And a Blair-Brown government was certainly competent and successful enough in domestic policy to do likewise.

But Johnson, of the goldfish-like attention and concentration span, is positively the last person to attempt such a significant shift, leaving aside the obvious fact that this is indeed a hurried crisis-driven rationalisation for Brexit that was never promised - more accurately threatened - at the time.

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

47 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

😂 So there you go @Rock The Boat, it isn't just me that thinks Johnson is economically illiterate even his natural supporters in the right wing thinktanks say not only is he economically illiterate but 'vacuous' to boot 😂

Johnson's speech condemned by Thatcherite thinktanks as 'vacuous and economically illiterate''

You're backing a complete duffer and trying to defend the indefensible - think you may end up as the last man standing because he seems to be getting precious little support from anyone else.

I think Johnson is just trying to emulate his own gilded success.

After all he is high pay very low productivity individual.

[horsefly 4,300]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/pm-unaware-of-british-businesses-lived-realities/ar-AAPcSOv?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

PM unaware of British businesses’ ‘lived realities’

 

Business leaders and industry chiefs have lashed out at Prime Minister Boris Johnson for dismissing the “lived realities” of British companies after he delivered the concluding speech at the Conservative Party conference today.

In a policy-light but joke-heavy address, Johnson said the UK is barrelling toward a “high wage, high skill and low tax economy” by unlocking the potential of forgotten areas of the country.

However, industry chiefs blamed the Prime Minister for launching policies that are clamping down on businesses up and down the country.

 

[BigFish 1,987]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Again, it is not the job of the government to recruit abattoir workers. It's the job of the slaughter industry to do that and they, like the hauliers and farmers, have had six years to prepare for this. It's no use them trying to shift the blame. They didn't recruit because they thought they could twist the government's arm to provide state intervention. Thank goodness the government has resisted this and put the onus on employers to raise wages before profits. You posted a graph showing rising levels of in-work poverty. If we let the Farmers Union, the Road Haulage Association and other lobby groups get away with shirking their responsibilities then the in-work poverty rates will increase. You should be pleased to see wages rising for working class people.

It was this governemt that negotiated the Trade and Cooperation Treaty that is the the root cause of these issues. It was this government that did not put into place any migation during a period of transition to the new arrangements. It was this government whose policies caused rising poverty, rising inequality and built the system that you now think was so terrible. And you finish with a lie, on a day when millions are £1000 per year worse off at a stroke due to this government, that wages are rising. In real terms the incomes of working class people are falling or at best static. Again die to this government.

[BigFish 1,987]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

..... the effect of a cheap foreign pool of labour depressing wage rates in the UK to such a level that even those in work have to claim Universal Credit.

Of course, there is no evidence for this whatever*. It is made up nonsense for the benefit of gullible fools

* The Bank of England calculated that FoM reduced wages by 1p per hour work over a ten year period.

[Well b back 3,208]

I have a couple of questions RTB. When I voted leave I understood one of the reasons was that immigrants were taking British jobs and when the immigrants were gone the British would be queueing up for the jobs, clearly that is not true ? But more disturbingly every time I have challenged the likes of yourself would you take the jobs I get the response ‘ absolutely not even if they were better paid ‘. So do you think only people below you should take those jobs, all four of my children would tell you to f*** off whatever the pay, so who are these Britain’s that you feel should be filling these jobs ?

You now seem to support huge pay rises for the likes of haulage drivers, yet I believe you said the NHS are only worth 1%, is that still your view ? Around this subject you also say there will not be big inflation rises, I would be interested therefore to know how business will pay for these rises, will they just swallow the extra cost ( on top of wages their fuel has increased 6p per litre ).

On the same theme you mention prices are not increasing yet we order roughly the same things every week from Tesco and a couple of weeks ago that cost around £100, this week it will cost us £120. Garages around here ( when you can get petrol ) have upped their prices, some of them by as much as 20p per litre, although most 5 - 6p per litre. I have to use my car for work, about 28 miles a day and my trips to Norwich for the football cost about £4 more. My gas DD has increased by £17 per month, and I am told that will increase further next month, have I been taken for a ride or is this happening to everyone ?

My NI is about to go up by 1.25% which I am told is for the NHS and social care. I sort of believe that’s true as the booster programme is the NHS and coincidentally our 96 million doses of Pfizer bought from Europe and the cost of administering them adds up to about the same cost as the 1.25 % rise in NI, so I think you were misled as you were when we were told about Britain v EU in the vaccine stakes as the likes of France, Spain etc are now miles ahead of us and we are now having to purchase vaccine from the EU as we don’t manufacture Pfizer to the same extent as the EU ( 2 billion doses ). I wonder what your thoughts are, especially as the EU are now making huge sums from the manufacture of vaccines.

And one final question which I am a bit lost on. I will stand to be corrected but have you not supported people’s rights to do what they want ie storm the Parliament in America and people who get arrested being hassled by the police. Yet because you don’t agree with the M25 protestors you feel they should have their rights taken away. Now I agree they have overstepped the mark and should be removed, but they are 100 times less dangerous than those that stormed the state building. I hope you have the same thoughts about anti vax demonstrations where the government seem to support the intimidation of NHS staff.

[sonyc 5,519]

I think this article very soberly  responds with the facts underneath Johnson's speech. Very good journalism, neither castigating nor politically motivated but the simple truth. Yet..  these 8 points in their understated way undermine Johnson so completely, especially his comments on Brexit, on vaccines and the economy.... @Well b back you will no doubt be interested in his comments about Astrazeneca, and on hospitals /NHS.

Every future voter needs to understand this man ...what he says, how he obscures with humour (humour is a massive defence used by people to distract) and the truth of things beneath.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-speech-false-claims-b1933390.html

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

57 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I think this article very soberly  responds with the facts underneath Johnson's speech. Very good journalism, neither castigating nor politically motivated but the simple truth. Yet..  these 8 points in their understated way undermine Johnson so completely, especially his comments on Brexit, on vaccines and the economy.... @Well b back you will no doubt be interested in his comments about Astrazeneca, and on hospitals /NHS.

Every future voter needs to understand this man ...what he says, how he obscures with humour (humour is a massive defence used by people to distract) and the truth of things beneath.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-speech-false-claims-b1933390.html

Yes, excellent article - I find having a Prime Minister who routinely and very regularly tell lies grossly offensive, so I probably react a bit emotionally to it at times.

So, very good to see this revolting and shameful apology for a Prime Minister dismantled as an outright liar in a dispassionate and entirely objective manner. Just a shame that only a tiny portion of our media subjects him to any real scrutiny at all.

[Herman 9,767]

You'll probably like this too. A fine mix of humour and anger.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-tory-party-conference-speech-b1933343.html

[Well b back 3,208]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

I think this article very soberly  responds with the facts underneath Johnson's speech. Very good journalism, neither castigating nor politically motivated but the simple truth. Yet..  these 8 points in their understated way undermine Johnson so completely, especially his comments on Brexit, on vaccines and the economy.... @Well b back you will no doubt be interested in his comments about Astrazeneca, and on hospitals /NHS.

Every future voter needs to understand this man ...what he says, how he obscures with humour (humour is a massive defence used by people to distract) and the truth of things beneath.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-speech-false-claims-b1933390.html

Thanks for that Sonyc.

After following Oxford we know full well the vaccine was developed before the pandemic and our government when asked for funding flatly refused. Oxford will be the saviour of many nations, but not the rich Western Countries, with Britain initially picking Oxford and others picking Pfizer. He forgets to say he would rather dump vaccine, than export it to countries in desperate need. Then again I don’t suppose he would mention we are now well behind many EU countries.

[Herman 9,767]

A small and interesting point about our current woes.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Thanks for that Sonyc.

After following Oxford we know full well the vaccine was developed before the pandemic and our government when asked for funding flatly refused. Oxford will be the saviour of many nations, but not the rich Western Countries, with Britain initially picking Oxford and others picking Pfizer. He forgets to say he would rather dump vaccine, than export it to countries in desperate need. Then again I don’t suppose he would mention we are now well behind many EU countries.

I suppose all parties would take credit for something that happened on their watch.

However, his party have caused so many of the problems they are now trying to tell us they will rectify. Their cuts and austere policies dragged on seemingly forever.

But the lies he told today and the stupid wisecracks he kept making show his insecurity at the highest level.

[Well b back 3,208]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I suppose all parties would take credit for something that happened on their watch.

However, his party have caused so many of the problems they are now trying to tell us they will rectify. Their cuts and austere policies dragged on seemingly forever.

But the lies he told today and the stupid wisecracks he kept making show his insecurity at the highest level.

Indeed

Lord Wolfsof has now launched into him.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Well b back

[SwindonCanary 455]

In reply to Well b back rant. All I will write is if you listen to his speech  today you will see his plan to make everyone get a better wage and stop the south east being the power place, it will take time but that's his vision.

[Herman 9,767]

There was one policy in the whole speech and that was a watered down version of something they stopped a couple of years ago. That isn't vision.

[Herman 9,767]

Intel not considering UK chip factory after Brexit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599

[horsefly 4,300]

7 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

In reply to Well b back rant. All I will write is if you listen to his speech  today you will see his plan to make everyone get a better wage and stop the south east being the power place, it will take time but that's his vision.

OK! tell us what the details of that plan are? What ACTUAL strategies and policies are being introduced to achieve this. I listened to him and heard nothing but vacuous bluster. So feel free to tell us how "everyone" is suddenly going to be rewarded with a high wage. 

And while you're at it, please tell us what "unleashing the spirit of Britain" is supposed to mean, and how it is supposed to be achieved. Finally could you tell us what it is about the corrupt liar Johnson that makes people like you swoon and believe what he says given that he has lied to you on so many occasions.

[horsefly 4,300]

Boris Britain La-la land= we are all going to be earning high wages by the magic of banning a few foreign workers.

Brexit Britain reality= 840,000 people to be plunged into poverty

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/universal-credit-cut-will-plunge-840000-people-into-poverty-including-almost-300000-children/ar-AAPc9mz#:~:text=The government has been warned that ending the,© Provided by Evening Standard Universal Credit boost

Universal Credit cut ‘will plunge 840,000 people into poverty - including almost 300,000 children’

The government has been warned that ending the £20 uplift to Universal Credit will plunge 840,000 people into poverty – including almost 300,000 children.

The increase in the UK’s main welfare benefit is being removed from Wednesday, leaving 4.4million households facing a £1,000 fall in their annual income.

Despite a sharp rise in the cost of energy bills and food prices, ministers have rejected repeated calls to make the uplift – introduced at the start of the Covid-19 pandemic – permanent.

 

Baroness Philippa Stroud, the think-tank’s chief executive, said it was a “really bleak day for many, many families up and down the country.”

Torsten Bell, from the Resolution Foundation, added that the move would take the basic rate of benefits to its lowest level since 1990.

“For one million households it will mean an immediate loss of over 10 per cent of their income,” he added on Twitter.

[Herman 9,767]

I was watching a video on productivity first thing this morning and enjoying it. Brexit is turning me into some kind of monster. 

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Intel not considering UK chip factory after Brexit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599

This is very sad and a devastating indictment of Brexit. The multi-billion wafer fab plant and it's hinterland would of kept us at the forefront of technology as opposed to being a 2nd tier 'also ran'.

Our new engineers I'm sure will still be able to emigrate (uncontrolled) to the countries leading the world just as they did in the 70s. Intel have voted with their feet already. 

I wonder what all those overpaid unskilled Brits will eventually do - perhaps be 'tourist' guides to the past.   

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Yellow Fever

[SwindonCanary 455]

2 hours ago, horsefly said:

OK! tell us what the details of that plan are? What ACTUAL strategies and policies are being introduced to achieve this. I listened to him and heard nothing but vacuous bluster. So feel free to tell us how "everyone" is suddenly going to be rewarded with a high wage. 

And while you're at it, please tell us what "unleashing the spirit of Britain" is supposed to mean, and how it is supposed to be achieved. Finally could you tell us what it is about the corrupt liar Johnson that makes people like you swoon and believe what he says given that he has lied to you on so many occasions.

That's easy, they are stopping the  cheap EU members from coming over here, meaning bosses will not undercut the Brit's 

[horsefly 4,300]

1 minute ago, SwindonCanary said:

That's easy, they are stopping the  cheap EU members from coming over here, meaning bosses will not undercut the Brit's 

Jesus Christ! Are you really that incapable of understanding the questions? EXPLAIN the actual strategies and mechanisms by which preventing a few foreign workers coming to the UK is going to transform all of the UK's working population into high wage, high skilled employees. Saying it will is NOT the same as demonstrating how it will do so. Johnson hasn't a word to say about how it will do so, because there isn't any evidence at all that it can perform such a magic trick. As ever you are confused by Johnson's bluster and buffoonery into thinking that his words actually have substantive content.

[SwindonCanary 455]

32 minutes ago, horsefly said:

incapable of understanding the questions

It's you that is incapable of understanding what's  happening !

[Mr Apples 1,320]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

Intel not considering UK chip factory after Brexit

That's a blow for Norfolk's county dish, will this affect prices on Yarmouth Market? 😭🤣

Apples

[1902 1,167]

11 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

It's you that is incapable of understanding what's  happening !

I can't see how this works. The theory is that cheap migrant labour has for years undercut British wages, so just get rid of migrant labour and standards of living will be increased.

However without a corresponding increase in productivity, the only result of that that I can see will be increased inflation in the short term (especially where the supply of goods is artificially restricted by supply chain issues caused by both Brexit and the pandemic) and business closures in the mid to long term as cost of labour goes up without increased margins to support it.

The issue in the UK was low investment, and having cut ourselves off from one of our largest markets, investment has been startling low for a number of years now. Inflationary pressure and the inevitable higher interest rates which will follow will cut this further. 

So the current situation looks to me like it will only reduce real wages, not increase them.

Edited October 7, 2021 by 1902

[horsefly 4,300]

14 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

It's you that is incapable of understanding what's  happening !

Hahahahaha!

[horsefly 4,300]

8 minutes ago, 1902 said:

I can't see how this works. The theory is that cheap migrant labour has for years undercut British wages, so just get rid of migrant labour and standards of living will be increased.

However without a corresponding increase in productivity, the only result of that that I can see will be increased inflation in the short term (especially where the supply of goods is artificially restricted by supply chain issues caused by both Brexit and the pandemic) and business closures in the mid to long term as cost of labour goes up without increased margins to support it.

The issue in the UK was low investment, and having cut ourselves off from one of our largest markets, investment has been startling low for a number of years now. Inflationary pressure and the inevitable higher interest rates which will follow will cut this further. 

So the current situation looks to me like it will only reduce real wages, not increase them.

Tut! tut! 1902 it's your typical use of sober economic fact and theory that is holding back Johnson's release of the "spirit of Britain". I hope you realise that every time someone points out that Johnson is economically illiterate a fairy and her magical economic fairy dust dies.