The Positive Brexit Thread

[A Load of Squit 5,161]

3 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Latest from the Independent. Dept of Transport writes to all Germans living in the UK.

This is not a joke either.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hgv-lorry-driver-shortage-germans-b1930558.html

 

My wife won a raffle and the prize was to have an Eddie Stobart lorry with her name on the front , I expect under the new Dept. of Transport rules she qualifies to drive an HGV.

 

[horsefly 4,296]

13 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Latest from the Independent. Dept of Transport writes to all Germans living in the UK.

This is not a joke either.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hgv-lorry-driver-shortage-germans-b1930558.html

 

Just received a personal letter from Boris noting I had passed my Cycling Proficiency Test back in 1971, it included the following picture and a set of keys. He signed it off, "wink, wink, tally-ho!"

 

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

18 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Latest from the Independent. Dept of Transport writes to all Germans living in the UK.

This is not a joke either.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hgv-lorry-driver-shortage-germans-b1930558.html

 

Looking forward to this job offer.....finally I can afford my Parsons terrier...:)

 

[Yellow Fever 3,767]

Perhaps the EU will send convoy of full fuel tankers with drivers - 

Out of their foreign 'aid' budget for third world countries.

[Fen Canary 811]

12 hours ago, horsefly said:

What utter tosh! "drowned out" was he? So you're seriously saying he couldn't be heard because of the tiny few Corbynite protesters.You obviously didn't watch any of the actual speech otherwise you would have seen the overwhelming support displayed by the conference hall. Even the Daily Mail said that his speech now proved Labour had a leader able genuinely to contend for power. Laura Kuenssberg view was that the heckling and Starmer's excellent response to it considerably helped him distinguish himself from the Corbynites (a view echoed by most political commentators). Find me one established and respected impartial journalist who agrees with your view. 

I didn’t mean drowned out in the literal sense of the word (as you’re well aware, you’re simply being deliberately obtuse as ever) as you’d do well to completely drown out a speech that dragged on for 90 minutes, rather that the behaviour of the Corbyn faction overshadowed a good chunk of what Starmer was trying to portray in the subsequent reporting of the event. Instead of policies we’re hearing about the heckles, Rosie Duffields abuse, Starmer refusing to answer a question on basic biology and Angela Rayners childish insults.

Whilst it no doubt makes the activists feel good about themselves, none of this ultimately plays well with those parts of the electorate that Labour desperately needs to win back. This isn’t a dig at Starmer, he’s a competent if uninspiring leader, but the impression many have of Labour is that it’s a party for middle class Twitter using student protestors rather than one looking to make serious changes to the day to day aspects of life that they care about, and Starmer needs to change that perception if he wants to take votes from the Tories 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

@Fen Canary

You were complaining about a two tier system of immigration a few days ago 

I asked what you thought of the CTA. I'm still interested in your opinion 🙂

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

Fishing industry to lose millions

Mummery not happy......again

Only positive is it's in the Express, so hopefully it is BS

Edited October 1, 2021 by How I Wrote Elastic Man

[Fen Canary 811]

7 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

@Fen Canary

You were complaining about a two tier system of immigration a few days ago 

I asked what you thought of the CTA. I'm still interested in your opinion 🙂

Apologies, I missed your question as it got drowned up by the now obligatory insults from Horse.

Perhaps rather hypocritically I don’t have a problem with the CTA with the Paddies. It was largely designed to keep the peace after Ireland left the UK, and not having it would cause carnage at the Northern Ireland border. Also the wages now on offer in Ireland mean you not going to get vast numbers coming to the UK to work in the low paying jobs in the same way those from Eastern Europe do. There’s a large Irish contingent in the country but they’ve arrived over a long period of time, rather than the flood we witnessed when the Eastern Bloc joined the EU so it hasn’t had the same abrupt effect. Ireland apart I I do believe everyone looking to come to the UK should be treated the same, whether they’re from Austria or Angola. I also believe companies should pay for the privilege of importing the workers they claim to need to encourage them to train and upskill the domestic workforce instead, and the migrants should earn above the going rate in the industry they’re employed. 

I understand that this is a rather contradictory view, but due to our shared history and unique situation regarding NI it’s the one I hold, though to be fair most of political opinion is one of rather contradictory interests. I’m naturally suspicious of those whose ideology just happens to perfectly match that of a single political party and for who politics is a tribal affair similar to football. 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

20 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Apologies, I missed your question as it got drowned up by the now obligatory insults from Horse.

Perhaps rather hypocritically I don’t have a problem with the CTA with the Paddies. It was largely designed to keep the peace after Ireland left the UK, and not having it would cause carnage at the Northern Ireland border. Also the wages now on offer in Ireland mean you not going to get vast numbers coming to the UK to work in the low paying jobs in the same way those from Eastern Europe do. There’s a large Irish contingent in the country but they’ve arrived over a long period of time, rather than the flood we witnessed when the Eastern Bloc joined the EU so it hasn’t had the same abrupt effect. Ireland apart I I do believe everyone looking to come to the UK should be treated the same, whether they’re from Austria or Angola. I also believe companies should pay for the privilege of importing the workers they claim to need to encourage them to train and upskill the domestic workforce instead, and the migrants should earn above the going rate in the industry they’re employed. 

I understand that this is a rather contradictory view, but due to our shared history and unique situation regarding NI it’s the one I hold, though to be fair most of political opinion is one of rather contradictory interests. I’m naturally suspicious of those whose ideology just happens to perfectly match that of a single political party and for who politics is a tribal affair similar to football. 

Whilst I disagree with your opinion on immigration from the EU, I think it is reasonable for a Brexit supporter to hold the view you have on the CTA 

Being impish for a minute, wouldn't it be fun if The ROI granted everyone in the EU Irish citizenship 😀

[Fen Canary 811]

10 hours ago, sonyc said:

I'm having to challenge this view too Fen Canary. It's far too reductive and too simplistic to cast it off in such a way.

The Brexit vote was influenced along class lines (36% of DE class voted to remain, same with C2, compared to 51% of C1 and 57% of AB yet you need to look at many other factors. 73% of 18--24 year old's voted to remain, compared to 62% for the group 25-34, 52% 35-44, 44% for 45-54, 43% for 55-64 and dropping right down to 40% for over 65+. Overlying this was a large difference in ethnicity (for remain:47% were White, 67% Mixed, 67% Asian, 73% Black, 70% Chinese and 65% Other). It gets more complex too....

Support for leave was 30 % higher amongst those with GCSE qualifications or below than those with a degree. Yet, hardly any elderly people who voted had been to university (atypical). LSE research shows that votes were divided by age, then social attitudes, then by education. The picture is complex even here....

More people participated in society following the war, and increasingly through the 50's and 60's. Britain since the 70's but especially the 80's onwards has seen less participation in politics. It was reported that only 36% of 18-24 year olds voted in the referendum (set that against 81% of those aged 65 and above). The older the person, the more likely they voted. Those aged over 65 were the highest turnout group. There were stories (urban myths?) that a despondent working class drove Britain to leave the EU but many in fact did not even turn out to vote. Likewise many younger people (far more likely to vote remain) did not turn out. The loudest remain group (the younger more affluent set) were often picked out by the right wing press as "woke". Some posters on here persist with this.

There was a big division in social conservatism and social liberalism (you can even group people on this very forum into those two groups). This was very influenced by age. As we get older there is a tendency to hold more socially conservative attitudes (and vice versa) - again this is evidenced and is not personal opinion. No doubt you'll also have anecdotal evidence. Younger people view immigration to be benign or a good thing. Support for immigration declines as one ages. Following the austerity era (which followed the market crash in 2008) immigration became more of a concern due to the perceived pressure on wages, public services and housing (which was my field of work). 

The LSE found that rising inequality in voter turnout was facilitated by parties failing to see the cost benefits of policies aimed at the young (hence we see a change in recent discourse). This was the politics of short-termism. We are good at that in the UK. The voter collapse in turnout of the most important generation - our supposed 'future'! It would appear we are heading back to the nineteenth century in so many ways (not even speaking here of colonialism but lack of suffrage) - politically, socially and economically. No wonder posters here are voicing their anger that we are becoming a global farce. Economic inequality has widened for the last 30, if not 40 years and none, arguably more so, than the last 12 years (especially driven by austerity).  Those better educated feel that EU membership and especially access to the single market (and free movement too) gives them opportunities for more well-paid jobs. Having worked in the EU environment too I know this to be true. As a father of a son who took languages (and Erasmus) I also have a personal view shaped by it. The barriers went up the moment we left the EU. Those less well-educated feel they have to compete with other nation-states for less well-paid roles or low skilled work.

Older folk also felt that they might face a decline in living standards as EU membership roughly matched the same time that Britain has been in industrial decline. It was a structural decline however and NOT because of the EU. We were moving more towards a service sector, power had (has) increasingly been deregulated. Inequality has soared - baby boomers spent typically £9000 on rent (1945-1965) but for Millennials (1981 - 2000) they will have spent £53,000 (adjusted). In the 21st century Millennials earn £8000 less in their twenties than the previous generation. This explains some of the democratic deficit we hear about.

Also its been a regional issue. Vote remain was highest in the south east (who also had the most positive views on immigration). As for less well-funded former industrial areas (North West, North East)? We all know the reasons here. Consider then Cameron and Osborne's austerity programme (I can state with 100% certainty I was made redundant precisely because of it - one of the strands). The whole mantra was deficit reduction and fiscal prudence - and cuts fell on the worst paid. People had their wages frozen for 4 years and services were removed from communities....often, community services that were hugely helpful. Cuts fell on areas most in need. Again, this is an matter of fact not conjecture.

Lines of the Brexit vote were drawn around inequality, age and centralisation of wealth. The EU and all the debate about it didn't cause these factors (Brexiters wrongly believe this), they have been baked in to British society for decades - economic inequality and democratic despondency. Society was based on capital and not wealth redistribution. It was largely unhelpful we had a PM like Cameron who gambled everything but did not understand what he was unleashing - he could not have appreciated the sheer divide in society or the effects of his policies (and those before) - some of us devoted our whole working lives trying (in vain) to tackle this inequality - yet all he had in his locker was his "Big Society" and that was based on volunteerism (which I'm betting many do a lot of anyway on this forum - in many different ways). Cameron may well be seen as a metaphor for the unequal and greedy society we are in future years.

What next Fen Canary? Time for some new ideas on how we might find solutions to structural problems would be a start. Secondly, an honest appraisal of Brexit would help (and educate many), thirdly, that folk gather together, come to their senses  and vote out such a populist government that we have at the moment, which is deepening division amongst us all. 

You’re correct that many of the problems regarding industrial decline and centralisation of wealth around London have little to do with the EU. They’re wholly domestic problems, and while a few manufacturers have gone to EU nations with cheaper wage costs this would have likely happened anyway, being a member of the single market just made it easier.

Also the vote was much more fractured than many claim, and I’ll admit I’ve been guilty of over simplifying it in the past, though to go through every nuance in every post would take days. However there is truth in that those in lower paid jobs that had seen large numbers of imports since the Eastern Bloc joined were more likely to have voted to leave as a whole.

This part for me though sums up the debate regarding free movement, and shows that you at least understand why people voted the way they did

“Those better educated feel that EU membership and especially access to the single market (and free movement too) gives them opportunities for more well-paid jobs. Having worked in the EU environment too I know this to be true. As a father of a son who took languages (and Erasmus) I also have a personal view shaped by it. The barriers went up the moment we left the EU. Those less well-educated feel they have to compete with other nation-states for less well-paid roles or low skilled work.”

For some free movement meant more opportunities, whilst for others in jobs for who moving abroad wouldn’t offer better wages then free movement was largely pointless, and they were understandably resentful of the increased competition open borders created.

My appraisal of Brexit is that I still believe it was the right decision to make, even if some aspects such as NI need major work. As for voting out the Tories, that’s entirely reliant on Labour making themselves electable again as I’ve written about in other replies 

[Fen Canary 811]

17 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

Whilst I disagree with your opinion on immigration from the EU, I think it is reasonable for a Brexit supporter to hold the view you have on the CTA 

Being impish for a minute, wouldn't it be fun if The ROI granted everyone in the EU Irish citizenship 😀

Ha ha I must admit that would cause absolute carnage. My views on the CTA might change somewhat if that were the case 

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

'My appraisal of Brexit is that I still believe it was the right decision to make, even if some aspects such as NI need major work.'

It is Friday night and I will not go into the detailed reasons why, but the vast majority of people who voted for  Brexit, close to all of them in fact, voted for an ultra-hard Brexit. Many may not have realised it but that is what they did. May initially and then Johnson get criticised for putting that into practice but they were actually following the clear mandate they'd been given.*

The point is that Northern Ireland and several all too obvious problems cannot just be fixed as you seem to think. They are an inevitable consequence of what Leavers voted for.

In terms of NI, for example, any mooted solution fails. By hard-Brexit definition there has to be a border somewhere. Put it between the two bits of Ireland and that is bad for the economies on both sides, leaving aside the question of the peace process. Have it where it is and the economies of NI and the rest of the UK suffer.

The only valid solution to that problem and the others involves in effect reneging on what  almost all Leavers voted for and renegotiating a soft Brexit in Name Only with the EU. As said in a previous post, this government will not do that.

*May in particular showed staggering stupidity and cowardice at the start, when she arguably could have got some compromise softish Brexit, by way of a customs' union, that would have avoided most of the current problems, but chickened out it.

[Barbe bleu 822]

14 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

 

It is Friday night and I will not go into the detailed reasons why

Probably because yesterday was Thursday and lunchtime ended a few hours ago?

[Fen Canary 811]

31 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

'My appraisal of Brexit is that I still believe it was the right decision to make, even if some aspects such as NI need major work.'

It is Friday night and I will not go into the detailed reasons why, but the vast majority of people who voted for  Brexit, close to all of them in fact, voted for an ultra-hard Brexit. Many may not have realised it but that is what they did. May initially and then Johnson get criticised for putting that into practice but they were actually following the clear mandate they'd been given.*

The point is that Northern Ireland and several all too obvious problems cannot just be fixed as you seem to think. They are an inevitable consequence of what Leavers voted for.

In terms of NI, for example, any mooted solution fails. By hard-Brexit definition there has to be a border somewhere. Put it between the two bits of Ireland and that is bad for the economies on both sides, leaving aside the question of the peace process. Have it where it is and the economies of NI and the rest of the UK suffer.

The only valid solution to that problem and the others involves in effect reneging on what  almost all Leavers voted for and renegotiating a soft Brexit in Name Only with the EU. As said in a previous post, this government will not do that.

*May in particular showed staggering stupidity and cowardice at the start, when she arguably could have got some compromise softish Brexit, by way of a customs' union, that would have avoided most of the current problems, but chickened out it.

By hard Brexit I assume you mean an end to free movement and the single market/customs union? If so then I agree, that is what most voted for, me included. Anything less than that to me wasn’t leaving, and would have been a halfway house worse than remaining a full member

[Herman 9,754]

6 hours ago, BigFish said:

For Fen.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

16 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

By hard Brexit I assume you mean an end to free movement and the single market/customs union? If so then I agree, that is what most voted for, me included. Anything less than that to me wasn’t leaving, and would have been a halfway house worse than remaining a full member

An end to freedom of movement, so no single market, and getting out from under EU rules and regulations, so no customs' union. So I am confused. You voted for that Hard Brexit and have said you are still happy with that decision, but at the same time are saying all these inevitable and predicted consequences (and they very much were predicted) are problems that need ''major work'' to fix.

It doesn't make sense. Either you didn't realise all these noxious consequences would happen but cannot admit that. Or you factored them all in before voting and regarded them as the necessary and acceptable price to pay for the Hard Brexit you desired. In which later case you can hardly regard them as problems to be fixed.

[Fen Canary 811]

15 minutes ago, Herman said:

For Fen.

You don’t think the pandemic and lockdowns had anything to do with it then Herman?

The fact that 350,000 EU nationals applied to live in the UK in January (after Brexit) compared to less than 50,000 in April once lockdowns started has nothing to do with it? Or the 200,000 visa applications from January and February had gone down to almost zero during lockdown? Also if you think it’s bad now it’ll be far worse in 5-10 years once the current drivers reach retirement seeing as the average age of drivers is 55.

But yes, I do feel slightly vindicated, as it does prove these industries had become reliant on cheap foreign labour, and now they’ll have to do more to attract workers 

[Herman 9,754]

Foreign=cheap. Isn't that a bit denigrating to the people of Europe?

Also, why are you brexiters not angry with how this has been planned out. You were sold an "oven ready deal", the easiest deal in history because the EU needs us more than they need them. None of it was true, nothing you were promised is going to happen and it was rushed through so quickly that it was pretty obvious that it was going to be a mess. It's now the mess you were warned about yet your still clinging on to some false dream and making up rubbish excuses.

[horsefly 4,296]

3 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I didn’t mean drowned out in the literal sense of the word (as you’re well aware, you’re simply being deliberately obtuse as ever) as you’d do well to completely drown out a speech that dragged on for 90 minutes, rather that the behaviour of the Corbyn faction overshadowed a good chunk of what Starmer was trying to portray in the subsequent reporting of the event. Instead of policies we’re hearing about the heckles, Rosie Duffields abuse, Starmer refusing to answer a question on basic biology and Angela Rayners childish insults.

Whilst it no doubt makes the activists feel good about themselves, none of this ultimately plays well with those parts of the electorate that Labour desperately needs to win back. This isn’t a dig at Starmer, he’s a competent if uninspiring leader, but the impression many have of Labour is that it’s a party for middle class Twitter using student protestors rather than one looking to make serious changes to the day to day aspects of life that they care about, and Starmer needs to change that perception if he wants to take votes from the Tories 

I see you're whining again about insults despite the fact that you have hurled plenty of them at me (and indeed started them off, "fu*cking idiot" being your last one), pathetic. As ever it's just a distraction from any genuine attempt to answer the questions put to you. Your claims remain total poppycock and it's very notable you didn't manage to quote one serious political commentator who agrees remotely with your assessment. Indeed, all the serious commentators claimed that the heckling, and Starmer's response to it, did him an immense power of good as it enabled him to clearly distinguish himself from the Corbynite minority. Even the Daily Mail described his performance as proving he now is a serious contender for PM. I don't think Labour Party head office will be calling on you any time soon for your "insights".

[sonyc 5,510]

I see now that the government has relented to pressure again (U Turn #xxx....and counting) and extended emergency visas until March. Wonder if Brexit will keep being softened by tiny changes? All that hard work and those hard hours...the midnight oil burning and all the forward planning seems to have been in vain...the whole thing is not just fraying at the edges it's rather disastrous. Even your own side of the media is mocking you too with the Mail weighing in of all papers.

So, ... an HGV driver isn't just for Christmas even though he (or she) isn't quite for life (but 'til early Spring). 

 

[horsefly 4,296]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

My appraisal of Brexit is that I still believe it was the right decision to make, even if some aspects such as NI need major work.

In other words you haven't got a clue how this problem can be solved. No great shame in that because no hard brexiteer has the slightest clue how to resolve that issue, which is why Johnson blatantly lied about it. Indeed, the problem is not resolvable while the island of Ireland remains divided between the UK and Eire. It was patently obvious to all but the seriously dumb that a land border between two different market systems would necessitate a customs border and all the checks and bureaucracy that necessitates (the inevitable consequence of leaving the single market). As the GFA ruled out the possibility of that happening at the georaphical border between north and south there was no other option than a border in the Irish sea. "Major work" is just a disigenuous attempt to ignore the fact that brexit has truly stuffed NI.

[SwindonCanary 455]

 

[horsefly 4,296]

2 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

 

Why do you keep posting videos from right wing loons? Surely you can find something better than these rantings. BTW where was their evidence for empty supermarket shelves and closed petrol stations "All over Europe"?

[Fen Canary 811]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

I see you're whining again about insults despite the fact that you have hurled plenty of them at me (and indeed started them off, "fu*cking idiot" being your last one), pathetic. As ever it's just a distraction from any genuine attempt to answer the questions put to you. Your claims remain total poppycock and it's very notable you didn't manage to quote one serious political commentator who agrees remotely with your assessment. Indeed, all the serious commentators claimed that the heckling, and Starmer's response to it, did him an immense power of good as it enabled him to clearly distinguish himself from the Corbynite minority. Even the Daily Mail described his performance as proving he now is a serious contender for PM. I don't think Labour Party head office will be calling on you any time soon for your "insights".

I stand by my insult, and quite frankly I’m bored by your antics so I’ll no longer be replying to you, it’s a waste of my time

[Fen Canary 811]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Foreign=cheap. Isn't that a bit denigrating to the people of Europe?

Also, why are you brexiters not angry with how this has been planned out. You were sold an "oven ready deal", the easiest deal in history because the EU needs us more than they need them. None of it was true, nothing you were promised is going to happen and it was rushed through so quickly that it was pretty obvious that it was going to be a mess. It's now the mess you were warned about yet your still clinging on to some false dream and making up rubbish excuses.

I don’t think it’s denigrating, I believe that’s how many businesses saw those who came to the UK to be honest with you. In the trades I saw it all the time, why bother training apprentices and competing for workers when you can just import them from poorer nations in Eastern Europe and pay them little above the minimum wage. I’ll happily admit my reasons for wanting freedom of movement ended was entirely protectionist 

[Herman 9,754]

6 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I don’t think it’s denigrating, I believe that’s how many businesses saw those who came to the UK to be honest with you. In the trades I saw it all the time, why bother training apprentices and competing for workers when you can just import them from poorer nations in Eastern Europe and pay them little above the minimum wage. I’ll happily admit my reasons for wanting freedom of movement ended was entirely protectionist 

I'll tell you what they were seen as, from my own company's experience. Good quality, reliable and hard working. They were not paid any less than the other staff. The fact that they had these traits meant my boss didn't have to worry every day that stuff would get done and now he has expanded the business, in the knowledge that people would be available.

 

[Herman 9,754]

Seeing some of the brexiters seize on some news out of Brussels I'll leave this handy, copy and paste response.

https://www.retaildetail.eu/en/news/food/empty-shelves-carrefour-due-strikes-distribution-centres

[Herman 9,754]

Simple evidence that being in the CU/SM was not a bad thing, no matter how many people pretend it was.

 

[SwindonCanary 455]

 

[Fen Canary 811]

38 minutes ago, Herman said:

I'll tell you what they were seen as, from my own company's experience. Good quality, reliable and hard working. They were not paid any less than the other staff. The fact that they had these traits meant my boss didn't have to worry every day that stuff would get done and now he has expanded the business, in the knowledge that people would be available.

 

Then your company was one of the good ones. I’ll wager it wasn’t in the building industry, and those Europeans they employed weren’t sourced predominantly from poorer Eastern nations however