The Positive Brexit Thread

[horsefly 4,301]

1 minute ago, SwindonCanary said:

I'm quite good at lip reading, but not so good when the lips don't move, you twonk!

[horsefly 4,301]

23 minutes ago, Herman said:

Do you lads remember old Moyo ranting away that voting Labour would turn this country into the new Venezuela? I wonder if he regrets those statements??🤨

Cleraly his aspirations for the country post brexit were way too high, why can't we be Venezuela!!!

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

32 minutes ago, BigFish said:

 

The Tories aren't being heckled by the conference floor, they are heckled by the rest of the world. 😀

Global Britain is a global joke.

[horsefly 4,301]

22 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

Fixed it for you, no need to thank me:

 

 

[BigFish 1,988]

"We are talking with the government on the need for much more pragmatism from both sides with how the post-Brexit trade and cooperation agreement works in practice to ensure fewer business activities, particularly services-related, require work permits. "

Shevaun Haviland, Director General of the British Chambers of Commerce

Sooooo, the government is in talks to reconstitute some form of Freedom of Movement of Labour. Very interesting, and rather makes idiots of those claiming its abolition was a benefit to the UK

[sonyc 5,526]

5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

The conference is a prime example of the problems facing Labour at present. For all the ideas Starmer put forward during it, he’s managed to be drowned out by the lunatic fringe on the left so that’s all people will talk about. Any potential policy he may have had has already been forgotten about, and all it will be remembered for is Jeremy Corbyn songs, the threats against Rosie Duffield and Starmer telling Andrew Marr that’s it’s wrong to say only women have a cervix. If he can’t even control the narrative in his own party at their conference he’s never likely to do it at an election.

 

I think you've: (a) taken out one point from my post which was made to indicate a positive story (boosting work experience opportunity) to support my main point (which was a plea for a joined up labour and industrial strategy) and (b) I'm not really sure if you are correct that Starmer was drowned out. Without being an apologist for him, the hecklers were not loud and were few in number and indeed Starmer turned this challenge head on quite effectively. To say the conference would only be remembered for Corbyn songs again is, I believe, rather a one-eyed view.

That Labour has many challenges to climb, would agree with that.

[Herman 9,780]

Tim Martin and Wetherspoons have reported record losses and I can't even laugh at them. What a mess.

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I think you've: (a) taken out one point from my post which was made to indicate a positive story (boosting work experience opportunity) to support my main point (which was a plea for a joined up labour and industrial strategy) and (b) I'm not really sure if you are correct that Starmer was drowned out. Without being an apologist for him, the hecklers were not loud and were few in number and indeed Starmer turned this challenge head on quite effectively. To say the conference would only be remembered for Corbyn songs again is, I believe, rather a one-eyed view.

That Labour has many challenges to climb, would agree with that.

People see only what they want to see.

[KernowCanary 214]

Self inflicted damage all brought on by a government who didn’t even need to open the referendum up in the first place.

[horsefly 4,301]

 

 

 

Have I Got News For You

 

@haveigotnews

·

21h

 

Government says ‘large number of tankers’ has been assembled to try and solve the fuel crisis - unclear if it’s a typo:

 

 

 

190

 

3.3K

 

14.6K

 

 

[horsefly 4,301]

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

9 minutes ago, horsefly said:

My favourite joke in the latest edition of Private Eye is;

I hate non-alcoholic lager, I think it may be a faux beer. 😄

[horsefly 4,301]

2 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

My favourite joke in the latest edition of Private Eye is;

I hate non-alcoholic lager, I think it may be a faux beer. 😄

Haha! I think it's PI that keeps a lot of us sane in these modern times

[sonyc 5,526]

8 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Ultimately the pros and cons of EU membership weren’t evenly spread. The cons were disproportionately felt by those at the bottom, hence the reason they voted in larger numbers to leave, whereas those more comfortably financially felt more of the benefits which is why they wanted to defend the status quo. The article you posted explains the situation very well 

I'm having to challenge this view too Fen Canary. It's far too reductive and too simplistic to cast it off in such a way.

The Brexit vote was influenced along class lines (36% of DE class voted to remain, same with C2, compared to 51% of C1 and 57% of AB yet you need to look at many other factors. 73% of 18--24 year old's voted to remain, compared to 62% for the group 25-34, 52% 35-44, 44% for 45-54, 43% for 55-64 and dropping right down to 40% for over 65+. Overlying this was a large difference in ethnicity (for remain:47% were White, 67% Mixed, 67% Asian, 73% Black, 70% Chinese and 65% Other). It gets more complex too....

Support for leave was 30 % higher amongst those with GCSE qualifications or below than those with a degree. Yet, hardly any elderly people who voted had been to university (atypical). LSE research shows that votes were divided by age, then social attitudes, then by education. The picture is complex even here....

More people participated in society following the war, and increasingly through the 50's and 60's. Britain since the 70's but especially the 80's onwards has seen less participation in politics. It was reported that only 36% of 18-24 year olds voted in the referendum (set that against 81% of those aged 65 and above). The older the person, the more likely they voted. Those aged over 65 were the highest turnout group. There were stories (urban myths?) that a despondent working class drove Britain to leave the EU but many in fact did not even turn out to vote. Likewise many younger people (far more likely to vote remain) did not turn out. The loudest remain group (the younger more affluent set) were often picked out by the right wing press as "woke". Some posters on here persist with this.

There was a big division in social conservatism and social liberalism (you can even group people on this very forum into those two groups). This was very influenced by age. As we get older there is a tendency to hold more socially conservative attitudes (and vice versa) - again this is evidenced and is not personal opinion. No doubt you'll also have anecdotal evidence. Younger people view immigration to be benign or a good thing. Support for immigration declines as one ages. Following the austerity era (which followed the market crash in 2008) immigration became more of a concern due to the perceived pressure on wages, public services and housing (which was my field of work). 

The LSE found that rising inequality in voter turnout was facilitated by parties failing to see the cost benefits of policies aimed at the young (hence we see a change in recent discourse). This was the politics of short-termism. We are good at that in the UK. The voter collapse in turnout of the most important generation - our supposed 'future'! It would appear we are heading back to the nineteenth century in so many ways (not even speaking here of colonialism but lack of suffrage) - politically, socially and economically. No wonder posters here are voicing their anger that we are becoming a global farce. Economic inequality has widened for the last 30, if not 40 years and none, arguably more so, than the last 12 years (especially driven by austerity).  Those better educated feel that EU membership and especially access to the single market (and free movement too) gives them opportunities for more well-paid jobs. Having worked in the EU environment too I know this to be true. As a father of a son who took languages (and Erasmus) I also have a personal view shaped by it. The barriers went up the moment we left the EU. Those less well-educated feel they have to compete with other nation-states for less well-paid roles or low skilled work.

Older folk also felt that they might face a decline in living standards as EU membership roughly matched the same time that Britain has been in industrial decline. It was a structural decline however and NOT because of the EU. We were moving more towards a service sector, power had (has) increasingly been deregulated. Inequality has soared - baby boomers spent typically £9000 on rent (1945-1965) but for Millennials (1981 - 2000) they will have spent £53,000 (adjusted). In the 21st century Millennials earn £8000 less in their twenties than the previous generation. This explains some of the democratic deficit we hear about.

Also its been a regional issue. Vote remain was highest in the south east (who also had the most positive views on immigration). As for less well-funded former industrial areas (North West, North East)? We all know the reasons here. Consider then Cameron and Osborne's austerity programme (I can state with 100% certainty I was made redundant precisely because of it - one of the strands). The whole mantra was deficit reduction and fiscal prudence - and cuts fell on the worst paid. People had their wages frozen for 4 years and services were removed from communities....often, community services that were hugely helpful. Cuts fell on areas most in need. Again, this is an matter of fact not conjecture.

Lines of the Brexit vote were drawn around inequality, age and centralisation of wealth. The EU and all the debate about it didn't cause these factors (Brexiters wrongly believe this), they have been baked in to British society for decades - economic inequality and democratic despondency. Society was based on capital and not wealth redistribution. It was largely unhelpful we had a PM like Cameron who gambled everything but did not understand what he was unleashing - he could not have appreciated the sheer divide in society or the effects of his policies (and those before) - some of us devoted our whole working lives trying (in vain) to tackle this inequality - yet all he had in his locker was his "Big Society" and that was based on volunteerism (which I'm betting many do a lot of anyway on this forum - in many different ways). Cameron may well be seen as a metaphor for the unequal and greedy society we are in future years.

What next Fen Canary? Time for some new ideas on how we might find solutions to structural problems would be a start. Secondly, an honest appraisal of Brexit would help (and educate many), thirdly, that folk gather together, come to their senses  and vote out such a populist government that we have at the moment, which is deepening division amongst us all. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by sonyc
re-read and re-edited unfinished parts

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

58 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I'm having to challenge this view too Fen Canary. It's far too reductive and too simplistic to cast it off in such a way.

The Brexit vote was influenced along class lines (36% of DE class voted to remain, same with C2, compared to 51% of C1 and 57% of AB yet you need to look at many other factors. 73% of 18--24 year old's voted to remain, compared to 62% for the group 25-34, 52% 35-44, 44% for 45-54, 43% for 55-64 and dropping right down to 40% for over 65+. Overlying this was a large difference in ethnicity (for remain:47% were White, 67% Mixed, 67% Asian, 73% Black, 70% Chinese and 65% Other). It gets more complex too....

Support for leave was 30 % higher amongst those with GCSE qualifications or below than those with a degree. Yet, hardly any elderly people who voted had been to university (atypical). LSE research shows that votes were divided by age, then social attitudes, then by education. The picture is complex even here....

More people participated in society following the war, and increasingly through the 50's and 60's. Britain since the 70's but especially the 80's onwards has seen less participation in politics. It was reported that only 36% of 18-24 year olds voted in the referendum (set that against 81% of those aged 65 and above). The older the person, the more likely they voted. Those aged over 65 were the highest turnout group. There were stories (urban myths?) that a despondent working class drove Britain to leave the EU but many in fact did not even turn out to vote. Likewise many younger people (far more likely to vote remain) did not turn out. The loudest remain group (the younger more affluent set) were often picked out by the right wing press as "woke". Some posters on here persist with this.

There was a big division in social conservatism and social liberalism (you can even group people on this very forum into those two groups). This was very influenced by age. As we get older there is a tendency to hold more socially conservative attitudes (and vice versa) - again this is evidenced and is not personal opinion. No doubt you'll also have anecdotal evidence. Younger people view immigration to be benign or a good thing. Support for immigration declines as one ages. Following the austerity era (which followed the market crash in 2008) immigration became more of a concern due to the perceived pressure on wages, public services and housing (which was my field of work). 

The LSE found that rising inequality in voter turnout was facilitated by parties failing to see the cost benefits of policies aimed at the young (hence we see a change in recent discourse). This was the politics of short-termism. We are good at that in the UK. The voter collapse in turnout of the most important generation - our supposed 'future'! It would appear we are heading back to the nineteenth century in so many ways (not even speaking here of colonialism but lack of suffrage) - politically, socially and economically. No wonder posters here are voicing their anger that we are becoming a global farce. Economic inequality has widened for the last 30, if not 40 years and none, arguably more so, than the last 12 years (especially driven by austerity).  Those better educated feel that EU membership and especially access to the single market (and free movement too) gives them opportunities for more well-paid jobs. Having worked in the EU environment too I know this to be true. As a father of a son who took languages (and Erasmus) I also have a personal view shaped by it. The barriers went up the moment we left the EU. Those less well-educated feel they have to compete with other nation-states for less well-paid roles or low skilled work.

Older folk also felt that they might face a decline in living standards as EU membership roughly matched the same time that Britain has been in industrial decline. It was a structural decline however and NOT because of the EU. We were moving more towards a service sector, power had (has) increasingly been deregulated. Inequality has soared - baby boomers spent typically £9000 on rent (1945-1965) but for Millennials (1981 - 2000) they will have spent £53,000 (adjusted). In the 21st century Millennials earn £8000 less in their twenties than the previous generation. This explains some of the democratic deficit we hear about.

Also its been a regional issue. Vote remain was highest in the south east (who also had the most positive views on immigration). Less well-funded areas (North West, North East). We all know the reasons here. Consider then Cameron and Osborne's austerity programme (I can state with 100% I was made redundant precisely because of it - one of the strands). The whole mantra was deficit reduction and fiscal prudence - and it fell on the worst paid. People had their wages frozen for 4 years and services removed from communities. Often community services that were hugely helpful. Cuts fell on areas most in need. Again, this is an matter of fact not conjecture.

Lines of the Brexit vote were drawn around inequality, age and centralisation of wealth. The EU and all the debate about it didn't cause these factors (Brexiters wrongly believe this), they have been baked in to British society for decades - economic inequality and democratic despondency. Society was based on capital and not wealth redistribution. It was largely unhelpful we had a PM like Cameron who gambled everything but did not understand what he was unleashing - he could not have appreciated the sheer divide in society or the effects of his policies (and those before) - some of us devoted our whole working lives trying (in vain) to tackle this inequality - yet all he had in his locker was his "Big Society" and that was based on volunteerism (which I'm betting many do a lot of anyway on this forum - in many different ways). Cameron may well be seen as a metaphor for the unequal and greedy society we are in future years.

What next Fen Canary? Time for some new ideas on how we might find solutions to structural problems would be a start. Secondly, an honest appraisal of Brexit would help (and educate many), thirdly, that folk gather together, come to their senses  and vote out such a populist government that we have at the moment, which is deepening division amongst us all. 

Excellent piece SC - but sadly most Brexiteers only hear the parts of it they want to hear and ignore the bigger story. Age age age.

I still give our recent isolation less than ten years before we will, tail between our legs, be trying to 'realign' in some manner. That's just progress in a modern world of which Brexit is a hiccup.  

My own take on it, as a boomer, is that many of my generation still hark back to WW2, the 'how we won the' movies on TV which we grew up with. A nostalgia for past triumphs. As the Catholics used to say - give me the child and I will give you the man. 

[SwindonCanary 455]

2 hours ago, horsefly said:

Fixed it for you, no need to thank me:

 

 

Once again you are wrong 

[horsefly 4,301]

1 minute ago, SwindonCanary said:

Once again you are wrong 

He said it. Read his lips!

[SwindonCanary 455]

3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

He said it. Read his lips!

LIES ALL LIES 

[horsefly 4,301]

TRUTH ALL TRUTH!!!

[SwindonCanary 455]

 

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

13 hours ago, BigFish said:

 

I said an age go that it was by far the stupidest decision taken by an electorate anywhere in the world since world war two (Trump lost the popular vote in 2016). What's worse is that the UK is lumbered with a government that is in such an ideological straitjacket that it has to deny there is any link between Brexit and its many avoidable crises. And an official opposition that is so scared of the supposed electoral consequences that it dare not make the obvious link.

[horsefly 4,301]

Yeah! He definitely said it was your fault.

[horsefly 4,301]

34 minutes ago, SwindonCanary said:

 

How many times does it need explaining that there has been a massive HGV driver shortage for many years, the RHA have been pointing this out ad infinitum. What is UNIQUE is that the driver shortage at this particular time has manifested itself in empty supermarket shelves and empty petrol stations. NOWHERE else in Europe is experiencing the same problem despite the driver shortage in the EU too. FFS work out what the difference is between the UK and the rest of Europe. I'll give you a clue, YOU and many other deluded fools voted for it in 2016.

Edited October 1, 2021 by horsefly

[Herman 9,780]

I went to Morrisons to see if they had any petrol but was told on arrival that they had just sold out, so I went to the shop for twenty minutes and started to head home. At the garage a tanker had just arrived BUT word had got around and a massive queue had already formed. So I did a loop of the block and joined the back of the queue. An hour later, (and one of those stupid self pay pumps which they don't explain how to use) I had filled but the queue was still massive.

Off on a tangent but I am not sure how this petrol crisis is going to get fixed. The garages can't fill up quick enough.

 

[horsefly 4,301]

4 minutes ago, Herman said:

I went to Morrisons to see if they had any petrol but was told on arrival that they had just sold out, so I went to the shop for twenty minutes and started to head home. At the garage a tanker had just arrived BUT word had got around and a massive queue had already formed. So I did a loop of the block and joined the back of the queue. An hour later, (and one of those stupid self pay pumps which they don't explain how to use) I had filled but the queue was still massive.

Off on a tangent but I am not sure how this petrol crisis is going to get fixed. The garages can't fill up quick enough.

 

We need to stop brexiteers drinking it.

[Herman 9,780]

29 minutes ago, horsefly said:

We need to stop brexiteers drinking it.

They should be banned from having any.Shame we didn't brand them at the vote.😀

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

14 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Finally a graphic we can all relate to. Assuming that we can do something about 'it' then we must appoint a Minister of 'It' who has one job and one job only, identifing what 'it' is and then develop a plan to deal with 'it'. A catchy slogan would be a start, perhaps 'Don't be a tw'it'' or ''it', you know what to do'. Maybe Simon Cowell could host a TV programme called the 'it factor'. 

We are indebted to Swindon for bringing 'it' to our attention.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

As others see us. From the staid New York Times:

The signs of breakdown are everywhere: empty shelves in supermarkets, food going to waste in fields, more and more vacancy posters tacked to the windows of shops and restaurants. Meat producers have even called on the government to let them hire prisoners to plug the gap.

One of the main causes of this predicament is Brexit, or at least the government’s handling of Brexit. Britain’s protracted departure from the bloc, undertaken without any real effort by Mr. Johnson to ensure a smooth transition, led to an exodus of European workers — a process then compounded by the pandemic. As many as 1.3 million overseas nationals left Britain between July 2019 and September 2020.

Yet as it became clear that Britain faced substantial shortages in labor, the Conservatives refused to respond. They bloviated, calling it a “manufactured situation.” They prevaricated, assuring the public there was nothing to worry about. And, seeing the chance to recast their negligence as benevolence, they claimed their failure to act was because they wanted companies to pay British workers more, instead of relying on cheap foreign labor.

This alibi for inaction is unconvincing. In the Netherlands, for example, new legislation has improved the pay and working conditions for truck drivers. In Britain, conditions remain among the worst in Europe. The government’s belated response — offering 5,000 temporary visas for drivers from E.U. nations — is too little, too late.

[BigFish 1,988]

[sonyc 5,526]

Latest from the Independent. Dept of Transport writes to all Germans living in the UK.

This is not a joke either.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hgv-lorry-driver-shortage-germans-b1930558.html

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by sonyc