NCFC, the ultimate yo-yo club.

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

Is it a good or bad thing? What are the implications of this? Will this time be any different?

I used to think of WBA when thinking about this accolade and envied them for it.

If we do go up, as now seems highly probable, it will be the 4th. time since the inauguration of the Premiership/Premier League, since Delia took over the reigns and since our last play-off defeat to Birmingham City in 2003 under Worthy, that we have achieved the assumed very difficult feat of being promoted from the Championship.

In relative terms, promotion has been easy for our club and this compares favourably  with the travails of other big clubs (Derby, Forest, Leeds, Villa,) and smaller outfits notably our hapless rivals who have spent some eighteen seasons stagnating in the Chumps without hardly a sniff at the big-time.

We will surely now assume the title of current "YoYo Champions" at least.

Is it a good thing?

Well it's certainly not boring for the fans. The thrill of a promotion season, be it a Wembley Final or the current euphoric dominance certainly keeps the fan base on it's toes. Being a yo-yo club gives the supporters full value for money.

It gives the club for, one season at least, a taste of the big time, a place in the spotlight, the chance to see the top clubs and players grace the turf and an ensured income from television,sponsorship and full houses for every home game. Weekly streams(or whatever) are a massive bonus for the long distant supporter and for all others on away days.

We always get the parachute payments in order to "start again" at the very least.

Bad thing? Well it's no fun constantly being on the losing end of things as a  matter of course and being subject to, for example,  the backs to the wall defeatist football that the Hoots subjected the Carrow Road faithful to.

Also, financial collapse, despite the parachute payments, seems to be common and expected when a club gets kicked off the top table. The massive wage gap ensures this.

What are the implications of having assumed the mantle of being the number one yo-yo club then?

The first is the obvious ie. That's our lot, that's our destiny, we are not one of the big boys after all so at the end of the day we must be reminded of our place in the hierarchy.

Perhaps there's more to it than that though. Smaller fry than us seem to be doing rather well up there at the moment and for various reasons.

It is probably true to say that, in the past, we have neither been prepared nor structured to cope with along stay at the top. The air has been too rarified for the likes of  'Lil 'Ol Norwich." However this implies criticism of the club's hierarchy, and I do not wish to go there at this moment in time. Suffice to say that, the last time around, the decisions of that ultimate gambler Mad McNally ensured that the club became massively unstuck both in the bank and on the park. Again, I do not want to go there as nothing is black and white, the dice rolled badly for the Hoots, for example, when RVW turned out to be a dud and Alex Neil constantly had the Simon Hooper's of the refereeing world to contend with. It's always small margins and we didn't we aquire the likes of Aarons, Maddison and Godfrey whilst McNally held the reigns?

Can it be different this time?

Well the structure and planning at the club is surely the soundest ever. From Webber through to Farke, from the scouting to the technology involved in doing this, from Category A to the excellent Neil Adams as loans manager, everything seems well put.

This is the most professional that the institution/business Norwich City Football Club has ever been.

It is proving it's self on the field of play, by the success of the youth players and by the perceived enormous value of our current squad and the almost certain realisation of yet another promotion.

 

This time around it might be different. We can but hope. All success in this precarious business is ephemeral.  

The club (Webber) has suggested that the club should not venture any further than is absolutely necessary down that perilous big spending route should we find ourselves among the elite. The fans (on this forum at least) seem unanimous in not wanting to see those same mistakes made again.

That's a start then.

Is our current mode d'operation enough to finally ensure some decent top flight stability though?

Edited April 7, 2019 by BroadstairsR

[Aggy 758]

I quite like being a “yo-yo” club. The idea of finishing around 12th in the prem for the next ten years doesn’t appeal that much. If you could guarantee a cup run or European football every few years then it wouldn’t be too bad, but I’d much rather be going up then down then up again than mid table mediocrity (either in the prem or in the championship) with no excitement.

[Ramrod 258]

Excellent op

[splendidrush 700]

Good stuff Broadstairs, lots of questions to answer, not easy to come to a conclusion. What I will say is that we have been a yoyo Club for nearly 50 years. 

When we first arrived in the old Division One we felt almost privileged to be there, since then we've had periods where we were established, relegated and back again. 

I remember at Wigan, our first game in seven years, the players played like they didn't belong, but we stayed for 3 years, clearing the debt and giving the fans some memorable performances. 

Some of the Clubs currently at the Top table are there under false pretenses,  if Bournemouth had to pay their own way they'd be lucky to be in the Championship. Unfortunately the game has moved on and our business model has been largely abandoned. 

Personally I'd rather be a yoyo Club than risk becoming another Coventry or, dare I say it, that lot down the road. 

[Jonncfc 28]

The way we play is absolutely the right system for the Prem, but obviously we’ll have to step it up another notch for it to be successful.  I genuinely think the current squad has the potential to do that and it’ll be important that we stick with them and that we’re not tempted to bring in too many new faces, simply because they have Premier League “experience”.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

40 minutes ago, Aggy said:

I quite like being a “yo-yo” club. The idea of finishing around 12th in the prem for the next ten years doesn’t appeal that much. If you could guarantee a cup run or European football every few years then it wouldn’t be too bad, but I’d much rather be going up then down then up again than mid table mediocrity (either in the prem or in the championship) with no excitement.

Indeed Aggy, how excited can Everton fans get these days? They are to burst the top 6 bubble (14 points currently between 6th and 7th positions), and who ever will now? They have to pay out millions to ensure they do not flirt with relegation, and the way football is going (most promoted teams struggle to do anything of sustained note in the Prem), then I cannot see them getting close to it, so how bored must they be?

[Nuff Said 5,152]

What’s the alternative to being a yo-yo club? Becoming “established” in the PL.

 

I think we all can name recent examples of clubs who would have been called established but turned out not to be. I would say an almost inevitable result of staying up is that your annual spending will gradually increase, meaning the longer you are in the PL, the greater the impact of relegation when it happens. For the next season or two, I picture our campaign as a guerilla raid - we’re not setting up camp for a long-term project yet, just surveying the land and seeing what gains we can make.

Given our financial situation we always need to be prepared to go down again, otherwise it could seriously damage us. So strategically, I think we will behave as a yo-yo club for some time to come.

BTW, I work with a Brighton supporter. Every time I see him, he talks about the Championship with a little bit of regret, the PL slog is taking its toll on them. Is that the best we have to look forward to?

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

In truth the dominance of the top six has nullified the Premier League as a truly competitive league.

Everton are perpetually in no-man's-land and Leicester were the extreme exception.

The entirety of the rest begin each season looking over their shoulders at the possibility of relegation.This is the first thing they are concerned with and reaching that forty points mark is therefore their singular cause for real celebration, unless they can pull a result out of the hat against one of the big boys or have a cup run.

When discussing our chances of survival up there we are really talking about our chances against this latter group. The Premier League is not just the top six.

I believe that our current squad/system/method, whatever, has us in the best position of all our recent promotions to vie successfully against this group.

Just how long we will be able to maintain survival is the optimum question. Just how"unique" is our current approach (compared with past experience) is the optimum question.

Edited April 7, 2019 by BroadstairsR

[NorwichRat 4]

Always said that being a yo yo club is preferred to being a Everton. We all like to watch our side compete week in week out.

Having said that I hate being relegated but if we play attacking football and go for the win it makes it easier to swallow. The Hoots style sucked the life out of us all.

I'd be happy with a couple of years in the prem then drop down a league or two then have some fun 😀

[Michael Starr 519]

YoYo club sounds fun. Always something to fight for, but still getting decent income from the Prem riches. Clearly, we should invest some of that cash into the infrastructure. There has to be a longer term strategy if you adopt the yoyo method.

[king canary 7,641]

One of the few things I agree with Nutty Nigel about on here is the idea of an established Premier League club isn't actually a thing. About 13 of the 20 teams can easily have one bad season and go down. Sure a team can string together 5 or 6 seasons but you're never established.

The worst thing that can happen to a club is stagnation. My concern before this season was that we were in for a long period of midtable Championship finishes ala Ipswich or Nottingham Forest. I'd much rather yo-yo than that. It's interesting to see that Ipswich as a fan base appear to have been more invigorated by this season than most of the previous ones. It won't last if they stay in League One though.

[sonyc 5,539]

What an excellent post, one that has had me reflecting again on what I love about NCFC. And I've concluded (not necessarily naturally) that I'm proud that as a comparatively small city we have created this position as being in the top 25 clubs in the country. I love the community feel of course and the fact that we are owned by enthusiastic, supporting owners. The vibe this year could be recreated in the Prem....It won't go away now. Things are changing at Carrow Road. 

I am less interested in the Prem and you're right, it's about 6 or 7 clubs and each year you may have an over-achieving Bournemouth or Watford but on the whole it's a slog and I often wonder how enjoyable it is to be a Brighton, let alone a previous Championship club like Huddersfield. The fun has always been getting there. Yoyo-ing is great. I hope it continues. Let the self-entitlement of Leeds fans ( it never seems to escape them) continue. It's not about little old Norwich for me so much as the journey and the pride.

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by sonyc

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

Well, all institutions come to an end eventually.

From the Roman Empire, to the Berlin Wall and onto Jean Claude Juncker they all end up ending.

Metamorphysically (what a great word ... if it exists) speaking the changes Norwich City Football Club over the past two years  have placed the club at the sharp end of the mold-breakers within the game. Big risks have been taken, but will they continue to yield big rewards?

Will we finally break the hegemony of the big-six, or will we go the way of all flesh after a gallant try? 

Well we know the answer to that, and I am, of course, being seriously tongue in cheek now.

BUT: I do feel there is a fair chance of us bucking our self-inflicted trend of up then down in record time, as long as we hold on to the current personnel that is.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by BroadstairsR

[king canary 7,641]

1 minute ago, BroadstairsR said:

Will we finally break the hegemony of the big-six,or will we go the way of all flesh after a gallant try? 

Well we know the answer to that, and I am, of course, being seriously tongue in cheek now.

I think some Leeds fans reckon they might.

[SwindonCanary 455]

The good thing is that the club and fans are all aiming for the same thing. If we go up, it will not be a surprise if we are relegated the following year, but this time we will not end up in debt. We will have the money to bounce back up again. 

[Yellow Fever 3,810]

As with all supporters... Its the journey not the result!

[sonyc 5,539]

Leeds is the 4th largest city in the country and given the size of it's fanbase arguably it ought to have a PL team, that is what I'm always told. You have to say they have massively under-achieved for many seasons. Yet we have bucked the trend with many promotions.

 

A good cohort of Leeds fans  look down on Norwich City, Bournemouth and many similar other 'tinpot' clubs. I know because I live this way. Just read (if you must) the hatred voiced on social media when we win (even yesterday). Its a strength to believe in yourself of course but such entitlement leads to profound bitterness too. Just like a someone who is a perfectionist, one will never really be happy. 

Leeds have played good football this year and I'm predicting they will join us (it's looking likely we will go up) so there will be more 'rivalry' ahead.

Edited April 7, 2019 by sonyc

[Boris 56]

I believe is better Sheff Utd to promote with us than Leeds

not about hate etc simply Sheff Utd look like more probably relegation material than Leeds imo.

Leeds have interesting manager and fan base also will invest more i think so they can be better to stay for play off's who will be won by Villa 😛

All in all from what I reed our sports director say we will not spend much in Summer who is logical as we need to not repeat same mistakes as last time promoted etc.

Only afraid what will happen with our open style with repeat once after under Alex Neil we was crashed away at Newcastle !?

Sure will be some pain against some like Man City etc but we must try play our style who of course is different job on Premier League  ...

[westcoastcanary 173]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

As with all supporters... Its the journey not the result!

Not for players, coaches or even sporting directors though. Or, to put it another way, ambition is satisfied only by results. Of course, a club's ambition might be limited to maintaining financial security and keeping the supporters happy by playing entertaining football.

One implication of being a yo-yo club, which I don't think anyone has yet mentioned, is that your best young players are always going to move on. So, if we look with equanimity at returning swiftly to the Championship, we need to accept that the likes of Lewis, Aarons, Buendia  and Godfrey will almost certainly not be turning out in yellow and green the following season. The concept of "continuity through change" to which the club are committed will likely be tested to the full at the first return to the Championship.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

I don't mind it too much  it would be nice to have a few successful years in the prem though, maybe keep the likes of Aarons and Godfrey while they get full international honours and get a bit of widespread respect for our club from other fans. Inevitably we will eventually come back down and have to go again but this time round I hope we can actually enjoy it for a few years first.

[wcorkcanary 4,335]

16 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

Not for players, coaches or even sporting directors though. Or, to put it another way, ambition is satisfied only by results. Of course, a club's ambition might be limited to maintaining financial security and keeping the supporters happy by playing entertaining football.

One implication of being a yo-yo club, which I don't think anyone has yet mentioned, is that your best young players are always going to move on. So, if we look with equanimity at returning swiftly to the Championship, we need to accept that the likes of Lewis, Aarons, Buendia  and Godfrey will almost certainly not be turning out in yellow and green the following season. The concept of "continuity through change" to which the club are committed will likely be tested to the full at the first return to the Championship.

Let's give it a good old rattle though shall we? I get what you say about results and players leaving, all we can do is our best, like boy scouts.  If we successful ( ie stay up ) then the vultures will be circling and if we're unsuccessful they'll still be there waiting....just offering a lot less for our better players. Liverpool couldn't stop the sale of Coutinho to Barca, but boy did they get some dosh for him......he was recently booed off at the nou camp. 

There is no real escape from the harsh reality of being NCFC in that it is very unlikely that we'll do a Leicester and win the premier League, but our Club can be better , stronger, richer and dare I say more fun to support if we carry on with the self funding model. I would love to see us in the position where we can turn down a shirt sponsor because we don't NEED the money.  Continuity through change must be exactly that and if Aarons et al are sold they will be funding what comes after them, as did Madders and Murphy.  

 

[kingsway 94]

I get where fans are coming from in saying that yo-yoing is more exciting. Take away the relegations and it would be even better!

 

But, me personally, from where I'm sitting, Norwich City FC haven't achieved their full potential which is a regular top 15 club, Carrow Road holding 35-40,000, getting to a cup final somewhere along the line and a few European campaigns!

 

Norwich City fulfilling their potential will only happen after a 6+ unbroken spell in the top flight!

 

So like others I do realise the Premiership isn't the be all and end all from a fans point of view, from the clubs point of view it certainly is if the full potential is ever to be realized! 

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

Good points Mr.K. and ambition over realism should never be knocked. I particularly like the vision of a 30,000+ ground with that rather, out of place and ancient, main stand being replaced in some way.

I suppose the crux of this thread is whether or not we should consider yo-yoing as being the peak of our realistic ambition or whether we can aspire to the hope that the current model can finally break that mindset.

Many a club supporter would give their right hand to be able to follow a yo-yo club after all. There is a certain amount of status, interest/fun and, if handled correctly, profit in such an existence after all. 

Nobody is expecting Norwich City to be a Premier League club forever, but a pro-longed spell could finally change the collective club psyche, which has a slight inferiority complex, forevermore. Particularly if structural improvements are able to be implemented and there is another trophy of sorts in that cabinet (aka the 'League Cup Box.')

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by BroadstairsR

[westcoastcanary 173]

28 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

There is no real escape from the harsh reality of being NCFC in that it is very unlikely that we'll do a Leicester and win the premier League, but our Club can be better , stronger, richer and dare I say more fun to support if we carry on with the self funding model.

Absolutely. My point was that it's easy to say that you are going to be content with being a yo-yo club but the proof will be in the eating. People have commented adversely on some Leeds fans' attitude of entitlement, but there has been plenty of that same attitude in evidence on here and at Carrow Road until really very recently -- well, actually, until this season. 

[A Load of Squit 5,194]

Me and the lad at the Norwich & District Yo-Yo Society are  a bit peeved as we've been practicing our cats cradle for weeks. 😀

 

 

[westcoastcanary 173]

3 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I suppose the crux of this thread is whether or not we should consider yo-yoing as being the peak of our realistic ambition or whether we can aspire to the hope that the current model can finally break that mindset.

"Break that mindset"? Come off it Broadstairs, the mindset of taking satisfaction from being a successful yo-yo club is so recent as to need nurturing, not "breaking". The entrenched mindset of NCFC supporters is better represented by Kingsway, not Aggy.

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

 " .... but there has been plenty of that same attitude in evidence on here and at Carrow Road until really very recently -- well, actually, until this season."

You seem to have a need to be critical of Canary supporters WCC in so many of your postings.Often it seems unfounded. 

I do not really think that you could label most City supporters with the "entitlement" tag either on this forum or elsewhere. It just isn't true.

The fact is our club has spent a fair bit of time at the top table in the last decade or so and, along with the fact that our squads have been littered with Premier League players,  means we are therefore somewhat geared to looking upwards rather than in the opposite direction. It's quite normal.

Reasonable expectation? Yes. Entitlement? No (except for Big Vince and his various nommes de keyboard.) 

Edited April 7, 2019 by BroadstairsR

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

4 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

"Break that mindset"? Come off it Broadstairs, the mindset of taking satisfaction from being a successful yo-yo club is so recent as to need nurturing, not "breaking". The entrenched mindset of NCFC supporters is better represented by Kingsway, not Aggy.

I actually said "peak of our ambition" when referring to 'mindset' rather than take "satisfaction" from it as you mistakenly imply.

[westcoastcanary 173]

15 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

I actually said "peak of our ambition" when referring to 'mindset' rather than take "satisfaction" from it as you mistakenly imply.

That's a linguistic quibble; my point still applies. Less than two seasons ago, any suggestion that yo-yo status should be accepted as the peak of our ambition would have been howled down with derision, just as it was over twenty years ago when Robert Chase first enunciated it.

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

 

"..... any suggestion that yo-yo status should be accepted as the peak of our ambition would have been howled down with derision, just as it was over twenty years ago when Robert Chase first enunciated it."

 

And so it be should now.

But, we're talking about realistic expectations here and all football supporters always need more than that. Not just those who sit in the stands of Carrow Road or post on this forum.

You mention of "linguistic quibbles."  Is a "mindset" the same as an "acceptance" then, with the former being clearly more involuntary than the latter?

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by BroadstairsR