Bryan Gunn

[Chip20 69]

I'm with crabby here, I'm afraid. Several observations in your response touch on the attitudes of motorists that really bother me; particularly the complacency and sense of entitlement. 'Conscientious' drivers being caught out are obviously not Conscientious enough. It is not beyond the wit of Man to stick to or below the maximum permissible speed (see my point above about being poked in the **** with a needle for even the most minor infraction); what is lacking is the will. People don't want to have to stick to the speed limit and they convince themselves it is fine to creep a little over occasionally because they get away with it time and time again. If you really cannot help creeping over the limit periodically then you are effectively admitting that you regularly lose control of your vehicle. Do you think people who regularly lose control of their vehicle on their test would pass it? Do you think it is right to have people on the roads who cannot control their vehicle? Where else would that be justified? "I occasionally open my door without checking for bikes; I occasionally set off without checking my mirrors and indicating; it's not my fault, I just can't help it; please let me keep my licence of competence anyway". Incompetence is not a justification for breaking the law. You would still be committing theft if you 'forgot' you were still wearing that watch you tried on as you left the store even if it were unintentional. We have to take personal responsibility for the things we do.

I'm also with crabby on your point about an indiscretion overtaking a lorry. Again, people justify breaking the rules (and the law) on the grounds that it is 'safer' in order to ease their conscience. If the lorry was travelling considerably slower than you then you would have been past it in seconds; if you were only creeping up on it and thus worried you would be adjacent to it for an extended period then why the 'need' to go past? If it was only travelling marginally faster than you then what is the harm in remaining a safe distance behind it? How many hours longer would your journey have been then? Again it is the attitude of entitlement. Got to get to my destination in the fastest possible time; it's ok to break the law occasionally to save myself a minute or two off my journey. The difference in attitudes can be seen at traffic lights too. So many drivers speed up as they approach them in case the lights change; the safe divers slow down as they approach them...in case the lights change. Safety first; not your own personal gain.

Drive to the conditions? Absolutely; I am with you on that one. But, still within the restrictions of the law. The rules, whether you agree with them or not, are there to be fair to everyone and to keep everyone as safe as is humanly possible. Driving to the conditions means going less than 30 in a 30 limit where necessary, or less than 70 on a motorway if the context demands it; not exceeding it because - hey - you're smart and you know best. The concept of driving to the conditions does not give an individual the right to unilaterally decide that the current speed restriction imposed is inappropriate and that it is acceptable to exceed it, even for ten seconds. Again it goes back to people feeling they should never be inconvenienced and they have a right to step outside the law for their own individual gain. In what other circumstances on the roads should we be able to use our discretion when it comes to the law? Would you jump through a red light at a crossroads because you can't see another vehicle approaching, for instance? The 'conditions' might appear to be an empty road and not a soul in sight, but is it acceptable to take that risk? Regularly?

I also sympathise with your experience of your progress being impeded unnecessarily when the road was empty. However, the limit is the limit regardless of how justified or otherwise individual drivers think it is. Everybody should stick to the rules or there would be anarchy and more to the point, even more unpredictability on the roads than there is already. The one about driving faster because there is hardly anybody on the roads really irks me. It's as if people think that accidents only happen when there is a lot of traffic around. I wonder how many of the 1,793 UK road deaths in 2017 happened on roads that appeared empty? I've certainly, in my time, read newspaper reports of fatalities where survivors have reported something along the lines of "he just came out of nowhere!"

I don't know how many instruments you think motorists are focusing on but the speedo is the only one that needs to be consulted regularly while moving. I see so many people suggesting it is dangerous to be focused on that instead of the road ahead as if they are being asked to stare at it and occasionally glance at the road in front of them instead of the other way around. That is not how checking the speedo works in reality and everybody who uses that excuse knows it. You don't have to drive with the needle persistently in the centre of the mark; you just have to not exceed it. But people don't like to ever be even 1mph slower for even five seconds. Again; their priorities are all wrong. Personal gain over safety.

You are right that speed cameras are one-dimensional and don't catch the plethora of other offences committed on the roads. However, the fact stands that if people adjusted their attitudes to speed and to road use in general then the cameras would serve no purpose; nobody - conscientious or otherwise - would ever get caught out. It is perfectly possible to drive within the rules if the will is there. What I have seen over the years, though, is that complacency creeping in. People don't feel they should have to concentrate as much as the driving test demands, they feel entitled to drive at the maximum limit (and beyond) for the entire duration of their journey and that anybody who impedes their progress is a 'hazard'. The attitudes are all wrong on the roads. Far too few drivers place an emphasis on safety first; it's all about me, me, me and it costs far too many people their lives year on year. Complacency, inattentiveness, and selfishness.

[Van wink 2,994]

A timely reminder to you all, the cameras on smart motorways are active now and lots of people, including myself are getting nicked. Had the pleasure of a particularly useless motorway speed awareness course recently. Pay heed to the limits on the overhead gantry!

[lake district canary 4,531]

52 minutes ago, Ginja said:

Everybody makes mistakes is true, which is why we have leeway like the 10% + 2 and the Speed Awareness Course but ultimately if you are a good driver and make the effort to stay within the speed limits it's very unlikely you'll ever get points on your license.

If you are caught speeding there is no one to blame but yourself. Breaking the speed limit to overtake a lorry that couldn't be doing more than 60 is not an excuse. Just drive the speed limit, it really is simple.

Right. So when I'm in the process of safely overtaking a vehicle, I am looking at the road, the lorry,  the distance I need to travel to get past the lorry, the awareness of any traffic that might be behind me, the awareness of the traffic in front of the lorry....oh but I have to stop all that, take my eyes off the road and look down at the  speedometer and if need be, jam on my brakes to stop me going over the speed limit, disrupt my manouvre, interupt the timing and all the judgements I am trying to make.....

Or I could keep my eyes glued to the speedometer to start with and make that my focus rather than all the above things.....

[Ginja 26]

42 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Right. So when I'm in the process of safely overtaking a vehicle, I am looking at the road, the lorry,  the distance I need to travel to get past the lorry, the awareness of any traffic that might be behind me, the awareness of the traffic in front of the lorry....oh but I have to stop all that, take my eyes off the road and look down at the  speedometer and if need be, jam on my brakes to stop me going over the speed limit, disrupt my manouvre, interupt the timing and all the judgements I am trying to make.....

Or I could keep my eyes glued to the speedometer to start with and make that my focus rather than all the above things.....

It's a fairly simple task to achieve, part of driving is to have an awareness of many things at once and prioritising your attention. You don't have to jam on your brake to control your speed you realise? and mirrors exist to help you monitor traffic behind?

I get it though, it sucks to be caught speeding and we make bitter excuses but honestly the way you describe it just sounds like you're a bad driver. The fault is with you though Lakey, nothing else.

[Chip20 69]

What Ginja said. People always describe the process of checking the speedo disingenuously, as if they are being asked to fix their gaze on the needle and nothing else. 

Lakey, you check your mirrors before your manoeuvre and you can be aware of the lateral distance as you pass the lorry in your peripheral vision. Once you've reached 70 you know full well whether you have sped up subsequently without having to stare at the needle. As above, if you have to stare at the needle to know if your speed is drifting upwards you are not competent to be in 'control' of a motor vehicle. It's like putting somebody with no spatial awareness in charge of a forklift. Do you have to think equally hard about which pedal each foot is on and which direction to move the stick in every time you change gear? 

[king canary 7,606]

Peoples attitudes to speeding are weird. 

I got caught speeding for the first time a couple of weeks ago and guess what...it was totally my fault. I put my foot down early when the speed limit was going to change from 40 to 50 and was flashed doing 47 still in the 40. No excuses and I'll take my punishment.

I knew the rules, I broke them, my fault. Pretty simple.

[cornish sam 953]

1 hour ago, Van wink said:

A timely reminder to you all, the cameras on smart motorways are active now and lots of people, including myself are getting nicked. Had the pleasure of a particularly useless motorway speed awareness course recently. Pay heed to the limits on the overhead gantry!

I believe VW that the cameras are only actually activated when there is a limit shown on the gantry, if the gantry is blank (so normal limit) then the cameras should be off... But if I'm wrong I ain't paying anyone's fine 

[lake district canary 4,531]

18 minutes ago, Chip20 said:

Once you've reached 70 you know full well whether you have sped up subsequently without having to stare at the needle. As above, if you have to stare at the needle to know if your speed is drifting upwards you are not competent to be in 'control' of a motor vehicle. It's like putting somebody with no spatial awareness in charge of a forklift.

So I have to watch the needle get up to 70, or should I be watching the traffic and the road situation?  In other words my awareness should be on the speedometer, not the lorry coming up in front of me which I was going to overtake?  But then my awareness was on my speed because I knew I was going aound 60mph, well within the limit.

Of course you know you are speeding up because you are doing so to overtake a vehicle - get past the vehicle safely and as efficiently as you can.  Speed in those situations is not the issue.  I was performing a manouvre in the way I knew how - totally under control and as safely as I possibly could.  By the letter of the law I was caught going over 70, but no-one will ever convince me that I did anything wrong in that manouvre, all I did was to overtake safely and efficiently and return to the inside lane and return to my previous speed. If I was driving along at 80 mph along the dual carriageway and got caught so be it, but I wasn't, I was travelling in the 60's and overtook a vehicle going slower than me and returning to that speed. 

Of course the issue is now one of caution - it makes me think twice about overtaking anything, regardless of whether it is safe to do so or not.........is that a better way to drive.....to have people who are afraid to overtake anything, just in case they are are caught out by a wretched camera that can't distinguish between those driving too fast and those just making a safe manouvre? And if anyone says again that what I did was "out of control", then they are wrong - speed is not always the issue.  Sometimes it is, but not always.  

[king canary 7,606]

3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

So I have to watch the needle get up to 70, or should I be watching the traffic and the road situation?  In other words my awareness should be on the speedometer, not the lorry coming up in front of me which I was going to overtake?  But then my awareness was on my speed because I knew I was going aound 60mph, well within the limit.

Of course you know you are speeding up because you are doing so to overtake a vehicle - get past the vehicle safely and as efficiently as you can.  Speed in those situations is not the issue.  I was performing a manouvre in the way I knew how - totally under control and as safely as I possibly could.  By the letter of the law I was caught going over 70, but no-one will ever convince me that I did anything wrong in that manouvre, all I did was to overtake safely and efficiently and return to the inside lane and return to my previous speed. If I was driving along at 80 mph along the dual carriageway and got caught so be it, but I wasn't, I was travelling in the 60's and overtook a vehicle going slower than me and returning to that speed. 

Of course the issue is now one of caution - it makes me think twice about overtaking anything, regardless of whether it is safe to do so or not.........is that a better way to drive.....to have people who are afraid to overtake anything, just in case they are are caught out by a wretched camera that can't distinguish between those driving too fast and those just making a safe manouvre? And if anyone says again that what I did was "out of control", then they are wrong - speed is not always the issue.  Sometimes it is, but not always.  

How long are you looking at your spedometer for? As others have suggested, you just sound like you're a bad driver who is incapable of thinking about more than one thing at a time.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

12 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

So I have to watch the needle get up to 70, or should I be watching the traffic and the road situation?  In other words my awareness should be on the speedometer, not the lorry coming up in front of me which I was going to overtake?  But then my awareness was on my speed because I knew I was going aound 60mph, well within the limit.

Of course you know you are speeding up because you are doing so to overtake a vehicle - get past the vehicle safely and as efficiently as you can.  Speed in those situations is not the issue.  I was performing a manouvre in the way I knew how - totally under control and as safely as I possibly could.  By the letter of the law I was caught going over 70, but no-one will ever convince me that I did anything wrong in that manouvre, all I did was to overtake safely and efficiently and return to the inside lane and return to my previous speed. If I was driving along at 80 mph along the dual carriageway and got caught so be it, but I wasn't, I was travelling in the 60's and overtook a vehicle going slower than me and returning to that speed. 

Of course the issue is now one of caution - it makes me think twice about overtaking anything, regardless of whether it is safe to do so or not.........is that a better way to drive.....to have people who are afraid to overtake anything, just in case they are are caught out by a wretched camera that can't distinguish between those driving too fast and those just making a safe manouvre? And if anyone says again that what I did was "out of control", then they are wrong - speed is not always the issue.  Sometimes it is, but not always.  

Very surprised at your responses LDC, always had you down as a reasonable and fair guy. To me it sounds a bit sulky teenagerish to say ''what am i to do ,watch the speedo and not the road?'' cmon, pleeeease.

[AJ 1,221]

People speeding is my biggest gripe about driving. In no circumstances, if I pull onto a clear road and do the speed limit, should I end up with a car 2cm from my rear bumper. But it happens on almost every single road I drive on. I don't get everyone's obsession with speed, or treating driving like a race. If you want to race, and at speed, then do a track day 🙄

[lake district canary 4,531]

Fair do's wcork, maybe I am not as good a driver as I could be, but then I learned to drive to road conditions and the awareness of what is around me to do with what is happening on the road and the last thing on my mind as I am in the process of accelerating to overtake something is to glance away from the road and the manouvre I am performing to check I am going 69mph and not 71mph.  

Ok, I have learned I will have to glance away from the road in future when I am performing that kind of manouvre in future, will that make that manouvring safer?  Not imo.

 

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

Fair do's wcork, maybe I am not as good a driver as I could be, but then I learned to drive to road conditions and the awareness of what is around me to do with what is happening on the road and the last thing on my mind as I am in the process of accelerating to overtake something is to glance away from the road and the manouvre I am performing to check I am going 69mph and not 71mph.  

Ok, I have learned I will have to glance away from the road in future when I am performing that kind of manouvre in future, will that make that manouvring safer?  Not imo.

 

 

Still sounds a bit Flaky to me LDC. Keeping an eye on your speed is just ONE of a MYRIAD of things we must do when driving.

You should try driving over here. There was an Amnesty here about 40 years ago due to a testing backlog, many thousands of people were given a full licence, just like that!! Which means many drivers here aged 57 to 90+ have never taken a test at all.

[king canary 7,606]

13 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Fair do's wcork, maybe I am not as good a driver as I could be, but then I learned to drive to road conditions and the awareness of what is around me to do with what is happening on the road and the last thing on my mind as I am in the process of accelerating to overtake something is to glance away from the road and the manouvre I am performing to check I am going 69mph and not 71mph.  

Ok, I have learned I will have to glance away from the road in future when I am performing that kind of manouvre in future, will that make that manouvring safer?  Not imo.

 

 

Your speedometer is just below your windscreen- a minuscule, millisecond flick of the eyes is all it takes to look at it. 

Would also be intrigued to know how much 'just' over the limit means...

[Van wink 2,994]

1 hour ago, cornish sam said:

I believe VW that the cameras are only actually activated when there is a limit shown on the gantry, if the gantry is blank (so normal limit) then the cameras should be off... But if I'm wrong I ain't paying anyone's fine 

No I think thats correct, but once there is a limit show you should say cheese.

[Chip20 69]

I would be astounded if you were punished for doing 1mph over 70, Lakey. As others have said, you genuinely seem like a reasonable kind of person but what you have described so far about your driving comes back to my fundamental issue with many drivers' attitudes on the road. It's alright to break the law (routinely, too) as long as it can be justified in people's own minds. As others have said, speed is one of many things we all have to be aware of every second we are on the roads but it falls down people's priority lists very quickly after passing their test. I don't understand why you can balance all the things you eloquently described in your overtaking manoeuvre but seem fundamentally incapable of assimilating an awareness of your speed into the equation. The whole excuse about focusing on the needle to the detriment of everything else is trotted out time and time again and is completely disingenuous. The periodic glance at the needle takes a fraction of a second and the view out of the front window remains in your peripheral vision during that nanosecond. You don't have to do it every second; you can 'feel' how the car is responding to your input. You also don't have to keep the needle right on 70; you are allowed to drop below it. If you can't get past your lorry doing 65-67 then there was little point in overtaking it.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Chip20

[Chip20 69]

Incidentally, I am fully aware that speed is not the only cause of accidents on the road. Lack of concentration and indicating is likely responsible for the majority of them. It is the overall attitude of motorists that irks me. Driving is dangerous and too many people seem to forget that very quickly once they have their licence. I appreciate your stance on safety, Lakey, but cannot understand your inability to keep below a maximum speed. It's more Gunn's attitude to driving that has set me off. Getting caught because you took your eye off the ball one time is one thing; to never learn anything from it suggests his attitude to road safety stinks.

[vos 155]

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Fair do's wcork, maybe I am not as good a driver as I could be, but then I learned to drive to road conditions and the awareness of what is around me to do with what is happening on the road and the last thing on my mind as I am in the process of accelerating to overtake something is to glance away from the road and the manouvre I am performing to check I am going 69mph and not 71mph.  

Ok, I have learned I will have to glance away from the road in future when I am performing that kind of manouvre in future, will that make that manouvring safer?  Not imo.

 

 

LDC I am with you 100%. There is nothing worse than a long queue behind a slowish moving lorry and the first vehicle behind it refuses to overtake when safe. Most of the remaining drivers will become increasingly frustrated and will have their concentration diverted on continually checking what is in front of them. In the worst case scenario someone will jump out and take a chance. In your case it was not "bad driving" but "bad luck". I personally had 60 odd years of "no points driving" but more recently have been caught twice doing 33mph in a 30 limit. In my humble opinion my driving standards have not slipped and it was a case of checking of all the distractions one faces these days. I would accept one can become a bit complacent although still remaining a perfectly safe driver. I have to confess I do not drive continually checking my speedo. Does it make sense to have adverts on a roundabout !!!

In Bryan's case the punishment is far too harsh. Being an ex modern day footballer I doubt if he will suffer any financial hardship, but many and their families would be devastated. As an aside we want Bryan earning some money and paying towards the NHS. You can hardly describe exceeding the speed limit by 10% as a crime. Yes, we have to try to respect the law, but I would prefer the authorities to get stuck in to violent offenders who continue to be rapidly on the increase.They are a far greater threat to our society. I personally think that bearing in mind the amount of traffic on the roads in the UK, driving standards in general are very good.

[Ian 1,129]

Let's not pretend context isn't important here either - doing 75/80 on a dual carriageway or motorway is completely different to doing nearly 40 in a 30.

[cornish sam 953]

Just as an aside, I was in NZ for Christmas a few years ago and a couple of days before Christmas day they announced on the news that Auckland police were going to be stopping anyone that was even 1 mph over Ethernet limit, then on Dec 27th it went back to normal (though they didn't say what rule they applied the implication and word from locals was that it was a 10% buffer). Apparently this happens every year around then...

[Mello Yello 2,293]

A can of Red Bull in one hand, my tablet clasped in the other with me watching 'Fast and Furious 8' whilst steering with my right knee and my gout addled left foot with a lit woodbine wedged between my toes and left leg resting on the dashboard......I honestly haven't got time to monitor my speedometer or even be aware of what's going on around me......Let's face it, it's only bl00dy fools and simpletons who speed or cause and have road accidents...... I've never caused or ever been in a road accident, but I've seen bleedin' shedloads in my rear view mirror.......

 

"KEEP DEATH OFF THE ROADS!"....... And drive on the pavement.......

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

On 20/02/2019 at 02:57, splendidrush said:

... is this the right time to ask 'haven't the Police got anything better to do?'👿

They certainly have some extremely weird priorities - I imagine you've seen the recent case in Manchester where some poor guy and his son had racist slogans painted all over his front door. He reported it to the police and then after a week without a response he posted some pictures on twitter and it all kicked off.

I wonder how many speeding tickets Manchester police handed out in that week whilst they were too busy to investigate a hate crime?

[Chip20 69]

3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

They certainly have some extremely weird priorities - I imagine you've seen the recent case in Manchester where some poor guy and his son had racist slogans painted all over his front door. He reported it to the police and then after a week without a response he posted some pictures on twitter and it all kicked off.

I wonder how many speeding tickets Manchester police handed out in that week whilst they were too busy to investigate a hate crime?

Just playing devil's advocate here but...

a) If a speed enforcement officer or two in Manchester were diverted to investigating the racist graffiti during that week surely some smartass could equally then ask why they were wasting resources on that (perhaps trivialising it as a mere act of graffiti in the same way many motorists trivialise the dangers of speeding) instead of crimes some might deem even more 'worthy', such as, perhaps, unsolved murders, sexual assaults, GBH, slave trading, child/domestic abuse where people have actually been hurt rather than intimidated. While the crime you describe was certainly vile and disgusting, your logic suggests scarce resources could still potentially be better deployed elsewhere. Is there no room in your hierarchy of worthiness for preventative policing at all? They should only be prioritising the  most heinous crimes and nothing else? The same way we should only spend NHS money on treating illnesses that have already happened and none whatsoever on preventing them in the first place?

b) Are you aware mobile speed enforcement vans are not always staffed by 'full fat' police officers? Oftentimes the person in the van is not qualified to be doing the 'proper' police work or "catching 'real' criminals" such as the example you cite. They have a dedicated role and are not available to be redeployed to your more 'deserving' acts of criminality.

 

[Il Pirata 249]

An ironic thread for me personally, I've come home from work today to open a letter from Humberside Police notifying me of their intention to prosecute. 

Caught doing 87mph on the M180 on the way back from Bolton last Saturday. Know the road really well, and the usual places the mobile speed camera van likes to sit, but somehow the sneaky ****s have got me. 

Not happy. Time for a Peroni. 

[......and Smith must score. 1,343]

2 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

An ironic thread for me personally, I've come home from work today to open a letter from Humberside Police notifying me of their intention to prosecute. 

Caught doing 87mph on the M180 on the way back from Bolton last Saturday. Know the road really well, and the usual places the mobile speed camera van likes to sit, but somehow the sneaky ****s have got me. 

Not happy. Time for a Peroni. 

That's really bad luck. I got nicked doing 86 on the A47 dual carriageway at West Walton a few years ago and was told that anything above 86 meant I had to take the points rather than attend a speed awareness course. The Old Bill get course money.

Surprise, surprise.....they said I was doing 86.

To be fair the course does make you more aware of how you should drive and I did take note but sadly not for long enough as I got done again last year on that cashcow of a camera on the A1067 at Taverham

[splendidrush 700]

7 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

They certainly have some extremely weird priorities - I imagine you've seen the recent case in Manchester where some poor guy and his son had racist slogans painted all over his front door. He reported it to the police and then after a week without a response he posted some pictures on twitter and it all kicked off.

I wonder how many speeding tickets Manchester police handed out in that week whilst they were too busy to investigate a hate crime?

Sorry CM, it was a throw away comment to 'stir the pot ' and no one picked up on it. 

[Chelm Canary 404]

You have to consider that these were only the times he was caught. If he managed to get caught speeding this many times in a short span, then it's fairly obvious he consistently and comfortably breaks the speed limit. 

The police and courtrooms aren't just out looking to get Bryan Gunn. 

[Fuzzar 1,702]

Bryan "Speed" Gunn.

[Ian 1,129]

21 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

You have to consider that these were only the times he was caught. If he managed to get caught speeding this many times in a short span, then it's fairly obvious he consistently and comfortably breaks the speed limit. 

The police and courtrooms aren't just out looking to get Bryan Gunn. 

Agreed. If someone already has 9 points on their licence and still speeds continually I find it difficult to have much sympathy.

[king canary 7,606]

5 hours ago, Il Pirata said:

An ironic thread for me personally, I've come home from work today to open a letter from Humberside Police notifying me of their intention to prosecute. 

Caught doing 87mph on the M180 on the way back from Bolton last Saturday. Know the road really well, and the usual places the mobile speed camera van likes to sit, but somehow the sneaky ****s have got me. 

Not happy. Time for a Peroni. 

This is the attitude that baffles me.

You broke the law, you knew you were breaking the law and you were not even close to the limit yet somehow the policy are 'sneaky' for catching you do it.