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nu_matik

Mario Vrancic

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[quote user="nu_matik"]Bit harsh on Stiepermann and Trybull. They look very decent! I see your point but I don''t have any other major qualms with the starting players in the last 2 games other than Mario ''The Jogger'' Vrancic[/quote]

I''m not saying they are bad players. They look ok but our expectations have been lowered so much that anyone beat and tidy who seems competent is praised.

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It would appear that some of our fans already view Vrancic as a less talented Berbatov, with claims of laziness and not offering enough to the team, whilst ignoring the excellent attributes that he can offer.It''s great to have a player with a genuine eye for a killer pass and who has strong technical ability to go with it, but if the attacking players are too static (as they apparently were last night) or not in the right places, then how exactly can this type of player contribute to their maximum potential?What''s more, for someone claimed to be lazy, it''s bloody amazing how when you look at his heatmap for the Burton game, he was all over the attacking midfield positions, strong on both wings, and even showed a good workrate in covering the left side which Murphy couldn''t be bothered to half the time!Something else very noticeable from the heatmaps is how Nelson spent virtually no time anywhere near their area, half the time we has more towards one of the flanks, so again, how is Vrancic meant to use his passing to set the striker free, if the damn striker isn''t anywhere near the central striking position???It was almost like a reverse RvW situation, but rather than the striker simply not receiving the supply, this time the supply was available, but the striker wasn''t there to receive it!

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IB - Imagine... Vrancic and RvW in the same lineup... If that doesn''t get you hot under the collar on a blustery Wednesday then I don''t know what will?!!

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"Vrancic certainly seems to be suffering greatly from Martin and Naismith not being involved in the team."I think Yellow Wal has nailed it there.Apples

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[quote user="Morgan"]IB - Imagine... Vrancic and RvW in the same lineup... If that doesn''t get you hot under the collar on a blustery Wednesday then I don''t know what will?!![/quote]A man can dream [;)]

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It''s disappointing that Vrancic is being played in Wes'' best position. His passing ability is good, but we lack width and pace at the moment - with only Murphy and Wildschut having natural speed.

I''d have liked to have seen Wildschut on earlier (for Vrancic), which would have released Wes into a more central position to support Oliveira and Murphy. We would have still had Trybull and Tettey behind them to deal with any Burton counter attacks.

A frustrating night overall.

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I''m afraid looking at heat-maps is not giving you the right impression IB.

Vrancic has some good qualities (not best served by being played out wide IMO) but tracking back and working hard are not high on the list. It is so frustrating to see him lose his man and only make a half-hearted attempt at getting back at him.

As for suggesting he tracked back to cover for Murphy well that is laughable. Murphy had a poor game yesterday as his decision making was plain bad but tracking back he did in spades both against Birmingham and Burton. Half the time to cover for Stiepermann who tends to drift forwards.

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I wasn''t at the game HC so have to rely on match reports and data to interpret what happened, but the heatmap clearly shows Vrancic covering the left wing back position (whether he was effective or not is completely unknown), whereas Murphy did not seem to spend as much time there and was far more focused on an attacking position.What is a fact about heatmaps is that they don''t lie, which is why we can see that Nelson was completely out of position for virtually the entire time he was on the pitch, that Vrancic moved around a lot across the midfield (again, no idea how effective he was in this movement), and that Murphy didn''t ''track back in spades'' (in fact the data also shows he had less touches of the ball than any other starting player).Again though, what do our fans actually expect from players at times? If Vrancic could do everything people wanted, he''d be playing in the Prem rather than for us, so of course he has limitations, but he isn''t scared of a tackle, and last night he was completely hamstrung by the shocking positioning of Nelson rather than Vrancic himself simply having had a poor game.

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Indy - what''s the site for the heatmaps? Genuine question, I''m interested to see where Oliveira and Stiepermann spent most of last night as I felt they were ''out of position'' at times.

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Having the pleasure of sitting through that performance last night I can "only" rely on what I saw IB.

One of the small things I noticed was that Murphy and Vrancic played on different sides of the pitch. Mostly Murphy on the left and Vrancic on the right so it was totally impossible for Vrancic to track back to cover Murphy. When they played on the left both Murphy and Vrancic tracked back to cover Stiepermann who tends to push forward.

The reason why Vrancic''s heat-map showed he had touches right across the midfield is that he was switched to center midfield when Wes went off.

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Ian, dont you think comparing Trybull and Vrancic is a bit pointless? 2 differing roles but if you break it down, Trybull is a defensive player tasked with helping the defence. He did this and we earned a clean sheet despite him probably earning a 6/10. Vrancic is a creative player tasked with helping Oliveira score, which he did not and spent more time in Vrancic area than he did his own.

Thoughts?

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]It would appear that some of our fans already view Vrancic as a less talented Berbatov, with claims of laziness and not offering enough to the team, whilst ignoring the excellent attributes that he can offer.It''s great to have a player with a genuine eye for a killer pass and who has strong technical ability to go with it, but if the attacking players are too static (as they apparently were last night) or not in the right places, then how exactly can this type of player contribute to their maximum potential?What''s more, for someone claimed to be lazy, it''s bloody amazing how when you look at his heatmap for the Burton game, he was all over the attacking midfield positions, strong on both wings, and even showed a good workrate in covering the left side which Murphy couldn''t be bothered to half the time!Something else very noticeable from the heatmaps is how Nelson spent virtually no time anywhere near their area, half the time we has more towards one of the flanks, so again, how is Vrancic meant to use his passing to set the striker free, if the damn striker isn''t anywhere near the central striking position???It was almost like a reverse RvW situation, but rather than the striker simply not receiving the supply, this time the supply was available, but the striker wasn''t there to receive it![/quote]

Were you actually at the game Indy? Vrancic barely moved faster than a snail throughout the game! As for killer passes, he barely made a successful pass throughout the game either!

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The contrast in the approach from Hoolahan and Vrancic was stark. Hoolahan was trying to play with some urgency, covering the ground in sprints and short, sharp dashes to get things moving. And that''s what you need against a team setting up as Burton did. Vrancic, though passing the ball nicely, was easy for Burton to play against as he jogged around.

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Baldyboy wrote: "Were you actually at the game Indy? Vrancic barely moved faster than a snail throughout the game! As for killer passes, he barely made a successful pass throughout the game either!"

False. Vrancic made a total of 49 passes, 90% of which were successful and 44 of which were accurate; they included 3 key passes (only Wes made more). 
Were you at the game Baldy, and did you make any effort to ascertain whether your subjective impressions were actually accurate?
People at the game form subjective impressions of what went on. Stats like heatmaps and passes made etc. provide an objective way of checking the accuracy of those subjective impressions. 

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[quote user="Baldyboy"]Looks an absolute waste of money and to think loads on here were raving about him before the season started![/quote]

He also had one of our two shots on target last night albeit was deflected wide, so what would you say about the other 8 on the pitch?

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I, like Baldy, was at the game and not unsurprisingly agree with his view.

You can prove what you like with heat-maps, passes made etc but they cannot give an accurate assessment of a team or a players effectiveness. Just looking at our wonderful possession stats while getting stuffed at Millwall should tell you that.

As for Vrancic''s three key passes I''m pretty certain two of those came in the last ten minutes when he had been switched to the center (after Wes was substituted by Wildschut) where he is much more influential. The remaining 80, while he was played wide, his passes were largely ineffectual - he was most certainly not alone in that.

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Hairy Canary wrote: "Vrancic has some good qualities (not best served by being played out wide IMO) but tracking back and working hard are not high on the list."
"Having the pleasure of sitting through that performance last night I can "only" rely on what I saw IB. 
…………………… The reason why Vrancic''s heat-map showed he had touches right across the midfield is that he was switched to center midfield when Wes went off.” 
Woodman wrote: "It''s disappointing that Vrancic is being played in Wes'' best position. His passing ability is good, but we lack width and pace at the moment - with only Murphy and Wildschut having natural speed. I''d have liked to have seen Wildschut on earlier (for Vrancic), which would have released Wes into a more central position to support Oliveira and Murphy."
So, according to Hairy, Vrancic played out wide until moved centrally when Wes was substituted. But according to Woodman Vrancic played centrally and Wes played out wide not centrally (where he could have moved had Vrancic been earlier subbed for Wildschut).
Just another illustration of the point I made in reply to Baldyboy. Subjective impressions are just that, and those impressions don''t cease to be subjective just through being at the game. The two opinions here -- Hairy''s and Woodman''s -- about where Vrancic and Wes played, can''t both be correct unless Vrancic and Wes actually played fluidly, and interchanged a lot. Opinions are fine, but dogmatic assertion simply on the basis of "I was there" are not.

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The idea that Vrancic barely made a successful pass is simply ridiculous. I haven''t seen the stats but I was at the game and he created more than anyone, with the possible exception of Wes.That''s not to say he had a great game, he didn''t, but to single him out imo reflects a lack of understanding of what he does do. It is, of course, quite easy to see what he does not do - he is not the all-action type that some might prefer but does offer a more subtle and incisive passing that could be useful going forwards.

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Vrancic has obvious technical ability, decent delivery and can certainly pick a pass. I just don''t know where he fits into the system. I felt we were devoid of options far too often last night, Nelson would drop to get on the ball and then we''d have him, Wes and Vrancic occupying similar territory with no outlet on the right. We looked immediately more effective when Wildschut was introduced as we then had Murphy and Yanic capable of running at players and offering width.

Vrancic is not dynamic, doesn''t appear to have the pace to get beyond the striker and when we''ve got Wes in the side too it does seem to leave Nelson short of support which sees him coming deeper to get involved; if we then manufacture an opportunity to get the ball in we''ve nobody to get it in to.

It''s still early days and suggestions that he is L1 at best seems to be grossly unfair. However, if, as it appears to me, that playing him with Wes looks to reduce our attacking options rather than enhance them, it''s difficult to see how he will retain his place long term unless he adapts his role to suit. Whether he''s capable of doing that? I''m not convinced.

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Anybody else starting to see the similarities with Arsenal/Ozil here?

Yeah the quality may be there, but there is very little in terms of stuff going on between those glimpses. Not tracking back, lazy, no urgency etc - its all what Arsenal fans have been saying about Ozil for the last few weeks...

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[quote user=" Badger"]The idea that Vrancic barely made a successful pass is simply ridiculous. I haven''t seen the stats but I was at the game and he created more than anyone, with the possible exception of Wes.That''s not to say he had a great game, he didn''t, but to single him out imo reflects a lack of understanding of what he does do. It is, of course, quite easy to see what he does not do - he is not the all-action type that some might prefer but does offer a more subtle and incisive passing that could be useful going forwards.

[/quote]As I posted in reply to Baldyboy, the stats confirm your opinion Badger. But I disagree about Vrancic not being "the all-action type". For example, against Birmingham he made more tackles than anyone else and contributed crucially to our defensive performance. Yesterday he made no tackles, because he was playing a different role, in a different position. What Vrancic does reflects what he is asked to do, game by game -- the sign to me of a good player who can adjust to the demands made on him by his manager.

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[quote user="Woodman"]Indy - what''s the site for the heatmaps? Genuine question, I''m interested to see where Oliveira and Stiepermann spent most of last night as I felt they were ''out of position'' at times.[/quote][url]https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1192366/Live/England-Championship-2017-2018-Norwich-Burton#heatmaps[/url]If it doesn''t immediately load into the heatmaps, just click the tab for it.I like to disable all players maps firstly, then look at each individually, then look at them in either pairs or expected groupings (e.g. Wes, Murphy and Vrancic as a group).

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[quote user="Baldyboy"]Were you actually at the game Indy? Vrancic barely moved faster than a snail throughout the game! As for killer passes, he barely made a successful pass throughout the game either![/quote]You should know by now Baldy that I rarely get to home games, and most of my ''insight'' is based on highlights/streams/data instead.What you''ve just managed to prove however is exactly how observational bias works, and why I use stats so much to back up my opinions.Vrancic made 49 passes, with an 89.8% success rate, whilst also providing 10 crosses (7 more than ANY other player). Every one of his long balls was accurate. and he had the second highest ''key pass'' rate with 3 (with only Wes on 6 above him). Yet you claim he ''barely made a successful pass throughout the game''....Observations are opinions, statistics are facts.

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Thanks Indy (and TCC). Will have a look...

Westcoast - I agree that Wes and Mario (not fair to use a surname for one and a forename for the other!) did interchange, but, my opinion is that Wes is more effective in the middle.

I think most agree that the subs ought to have been made earlier. I would have subbed Vrancic for Wildschut & allowed Wes to operate centrally without the need to go wide, although he will always go to where he can get the ball, in any area of the pitch.

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