Football matches an easy target?

[im spartacus canary 0]

I wasn''t making lite of it Ricardo,you are right it is inevitable.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

Agreed. Some of the people (including family and friends of murdered hostages) were saying yesterday that Jihadi John should have been captured and brought to ''justice''. I am afraid that they (with the greatest of respect) are being a tad naive. It would have been impossible to capture him and smuggle him out.

We are past the stage of negotiation. You just have to face force with greater force. That is what has worked throughout history when you get faced with one minded aholes.

We cannot back down.

[morty 0]

Actually had to unfollow people on twitter last night who were implying Paris was kind of our own fault, tracing it back to the first gulf war.

[Van wink 2,994]

I wasn''t aware that there was an attack inside the ground, I may be wrong, from what I have seen there were two attacks at food outlets outside the the ground with speculation that the target was to get into the stadium, which the ****** failled to do.

[AJ 1,219]

In such chaotic circumstances news reports are a bit vague but I think you''re right Vanwink and that nothing happened inside the ground but on the outside where 3 people are reported as killed. Security at sporting events is usually pretty good, especially national stadiums.

The German squad actually stayed the night inside the ground instead of going back to their hotel.

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

This took a lot of planning and organization. Sadly the scheme wasn''t discovered prior to its execution. There are still several others to be rounded up. Their neighbors and congregations need to speak up.

[Herman 9,764]

[quote user="morty"]Actually had to unfollow people on twitter last night who were implying Paris was kind of our own fault, tracing it back to the first gulf war.

[/quote]A short explanation on the rise of ISIS.[url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/25/tony-blair-is-right-without-the-iraq-war-there-would-be-no-isis?CMP=share_btn_tw[/url]

[morty 0]

Interesting article Herman.

But I still don''t buy into the attitude of people that what happened in Paris was somehow our own faults.

Should we have stood by and done nothing while Saddam Hussein committed genocide on a massive scale then?

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"]Actually had to unfollow people on twitter last night who were implying Paris was kind of our own fault, tracing it back to the first gulf war.

[/quote]A short explanation on the rise of ISIS.[url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/25/tony-blair-is-right-without-the-iraq-war-there-would-be-no-isis?CMP=share_btn_tw[/url][/quote]Interesting but simplistic analysis, Herman. To pretend that Iraq was a peaceful and tolerant society where Sunni and Shia lived happily together is just a load of nonsense. Saddam kept the lid on things with repression and murder of all minorities. His removal has simply lifted that lid and led to a religious Civil War. The US led invasion certainly facilitated this but are we now saying that leaving Saddam in place would have been a better option?In the end we are going to have to stop making excuses for the people who want to kill us or suffer the consequences. What ever happens now, its not going to end well.

[morty 0]

Boots on the ground is what''s next. We must surgically remove ISIL from the planet. Ensuring not one civilian is harmed. We need to break the cycle of fuelling hatred for subsequent generations of jihadists.

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

[quote user="morty"]Interesting article Herman.

But I still don''t buy into the attitude of people that what happened in Paris was somehow our own faults.

Should we have stood by and done nothing while Saddam Hussein committed genocide on a massive scale then?[/quote]

It looks like they never have a plan of what to do after the conflict, what were the exit strategies for Iraq and Libya?

[Herman 9,764]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"]Actually had to unfollow people on twitter last night who were implying Paris was kind of our own fault, tracing it back to the first gulf war.

[/quote]A short explanation on the rise of ISIS.[url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/25/tony-blair-is-right-without-the-iraq-war-there-would-be-no-isis?CMP=share_btn_tw[/url][/quote]Interesting but simplistic analysis, Herman. To pretend that Iraq was a peaceful and tolerant society where Sunni and Shia lived happily together is just a load of nonsense. Saddam kept the lid on things with repression and murder of all minorities. His removal has simply lifted that lid and led to a religious Civil War. The US led invasion certainly facilitated this but are we now saying that leaving Saddam in place would have been a better option?In the end we are going to have to stop making excuses for the people who want to kill us or suffer the consequences. What ever happens now, its not going to end well.[/quote]I haven''t said it was. The only thing keeping Iraq in one piece was Saddam''s repressive regime. With us removing him and not planning the peace properly (the war was the easy bit) has led to the complete destabilisation of the middle east. Removing Saddam and Gaddaffi was fantastic in theory, but in practise has been a disaster. Why do you think the west is turning a blind eye to Sisi in Egypt?As to making excuses, I don''t think I am. Just trying to point out history and why these people want to kill us.

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="Herman "][quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Herman "][quote user="morty"]Actually had to unfollow people on twitter last night who were implying Paris was kind of our own fault, tracing it back to the first gulf war.

[/quote]A short explanation on the rise of ISIS.[url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/25/tony-blair-is-right-without-the-iraq-war-there-would-be-no-isis?CMP=share_btn_tw[/url][/quote]Interesting but simplistic analysis, Herman. To pretend that Iraq was a peaceful and tolerant society where Sunni and Shia lived happily together is just a load of nonsense. Saddam kept the lid on things with repression and murder of all minorities. His removal has simply lifted that lid and led to a religious Civil War. The US led invasion certainly facilitated this but are we now saying that leaving Saddam in place would have been a better option?In the end we are going to have to stop making excuses for the people who want to kill us or suffer the consequences. What ever happens now, its not going to end well.[/quote]I haven''t said it was. The only thing keeping Iraq in one piece was Saddam''s repressive regime. With us removing him and not planning the peace properly (the war was the easy bit) has led to the complete destabilisation of the middle east. Removing Saddam and Gaddaffi was fantastic in theory, but in practise has been a disaster. Why do you think the west is turning a blind eye to Sisi in Egypt?As to making excuses, I don''t think I am. Just trying to point out history and why these people want to kill us.

[/quote]For the same reason that we are now coming to the conclusion that Assad should be left in place. These countries are simply not ready for liberal democracies. We may not like it but things are as they are and not how we''d like them to be.I now see that one of the dead terrorists came in through Greece as a Syrian refugee last month. I doubt that he was a lone wolf. This plays right into the hands of the far right and you don''t need to be clairvoyant to see what is coming.In the face of innocent people ripped apart by grenades and mowed down in cold blood while going about their business the hand wringing over drowned children, (while tragic in its own rite) is not going to cut it for much longer.

[mrs miggins 0]

What we should''ve done is made sure we had a proper plan of action for the period after the war; that is the hard bit and would''ve determined whether Iraq was a success or failure (and quite evidently if no-one has recognised, it was/is a failure). I know this is pretty much ''state the obvious,'' but intentions are all well and good but there''s no doubt that America especially have made things worse and ISIS have risen from those ashes. Al-Qaeda are nothing compared to ISIS. However, I don''t want to sound apologetic to terrorists in any way and it''s clear that terrorism is not the fault of the west, it is of course the fault of people reading the Quaran and interpreting it differently to the majority of muslims. They believe they are doing gods will.

We did not create ISIS, instead we created a vacuum for them to flourish in. After the war ISIS built schools for children, they built hospitals for the sick when Iraq was in chaos. ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) is no longer an organisation, they have succeeded on becoming a state. I think too many people think that they (ISIS) are just content with killing westerners every now and again because they don''t like our governments and our ''way of life,'' yet it has nothing to do with this really, in fact it is much bigger than this. They want to take over Europe and then eventually America because they think they are doing Gods will; they''re not like christians and most muslims who just believe in god for fun; these guys really believe it, and thats why the kurds have started to employ women in combat to fight against ISIS. (ISIS think they''ll go to hell if they kill a woman....who hasn''t cheated on their husband or isn''t a lesbian).

The Swiss journalist Jurgen Toddenhofer flew with his son to Syria a few years ago because they (ISIS) agreed to be interviewed. It the only real interview where we in the west can understand their ambitions.

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="morty"]Boots on the ground is what''s next. We must surgically remove ISIL from the planet. Ensuring not one civilian is harmed. We need to break the cycle of fuelling hatred for subsequent generations of jihadists.[/quote]Whilst I agree with the sentiment Morty, I cannot believe your naivete.  With the greatest respect my friend, who on earth do you think you''re dealing with here, Father Christmas?  Do you seriously believe you can wipe out a group of barbaric ''people'' who will kill anyone at the drop of a hat to survive, without civilians being harmed?  They are already proving that the more of them are killed the more innocents are killed in retribution, and the softer the target the better, like all terrorists.  Just like the Nazis as their situation became more hopeless they annihilated the helpless, so would ISIS.If you have a masterplan, let''s hear it, I''m sure world politicians would love to hear it too, and it is not my intention to deliberately pick an argument here like some.[:)]

[mrs miggins 0]

Well I wonder who''s going to last longer; Assad or ISIS. I know who my moneys on.

[mrs miggins 0]

(also agree with Robert; boots on the ground would be the worst tactic at this time)

[morty 0]

Drone strikes with increased risk of harming non combatants a better one then?

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="morty"]Drone strikes with increased risk of harming non combatants a better one then?[/quote]These fanatics just kill anybody and anything when confronted with something or somebody they don''t like whether that''s a drone or an opposition soldier.  Which bit of that don''t you get? 

[ricardo 7,395]

[quote user="OldRobert"][quote user="morty"]Boots on the ground is what''s next. We must surgically remove ISIL from the planet. Ensuring not one civilian is harmed. We need to break the cycle of fuelling hatred for subsequent generations of jihadists.[/quote]Whilst I agree with the sentiment Morty, I cannot believe your naivete.  With the greatest respect my friend, who on earth do you think you''re dealing with here, Father Christmas?  Do you seriously believe you can wipe out a group of barbaric ''people'' who will kill anyone at the drop of a hat to survive, without civilians being harmed?  They are already proving that the more of them are killed the more innocents are killed in retribution, and the softer the target the better, like all terrorists.  Just like the Nazis as their situation became more hopeless they annihilated the helpless, so would ISIS.If you have a masterplan, let''s hear it, I''m sure world politicians would love to hear it too, and it is not my intention to deliberately pick an argument here like some.[:)] [/quote]I have to agree. Drawing us into a ground war with all the attendant civilian casualties is what they are hoping to achieve. They think it will unite the entire Muslim world against the West. The best we can hope for is containment and attrition. It also means that we need to regain control of our borders else we become the easy target that was demonstrated by Paris last night.This is going to be a very long struggle.

[morty 0]

What''s your plan then Robert?

[Herman 9,764]

Personally the current plan of funding and helping the various groups, Kurd, Yazidi, Shia,Sunni tribesmen etc is our best bet. Us sending ground troops is exactly what ISIS wants. (Look up their ''end of world'' philosophy).

[morty 0]

So basically leave them to fight it out themselves?

[ricardo 7,395]

Casualties now approaching 500.129 dead, 352 injured (99 critically)

[OldRobert 38]

[quote user="morty"]What''s your plan then Robert?[/quote]I wish I had one Morty, like lots on here.  Would probably be able to save some lives, as sure as eggs is eggs last night in Paris won''t be the last one.How you deal with fanatics like that I don''t have a clue.  I doubt you could negotiate with them if you wanted to.  To strike a deal people need to have a moral code, and I don''t see much sign of that with ISIS do you?  The finest political brains in the world struggle with this current problem, and all of us with upward or half a brain cell working know that there is no easy answer.  They always say ''jaw, jaw is better than war, war'' but that pre-supposes you can talk to the other side.I''m not side stepping your perfectly reasonable question..............I just don''t know.[:)]

[mrs miggins 0]

It''s not leaving them to fight for themselves; its not a ''wait and see'' approach. It''s making sure they''re well equipt and well funded, but also making sure there is co-operation between the rebel groups against ISIS.

Also what we need to do is ensure western countries such as the U.S, Germany (and ourselves) stop selling weapons to the free Syrian army and countries such as Saudi Arabia which are then going into the hands of ISIS.

Most of the money ISIS makes are from illegal oil fields, as Mr Corbyn has said, this is where we can really hurt ISIS. If we control the oil/funding, then we put ISIS in a difficult position. Unfortunately the governments in Europe don''t seem to be doing anything except droning the $hit out of the country...excellent plan, not.

[mrs miggins 0]

You can''t negotiate with these people. They truly believe this is a war which has already been decided thousands of years ago (except from the Earth being 4.5 billion years old). They believe this is good v evil (us of course being evil) and they are all individually important muslims, doing what is right. If they had their way, we''d all be living under Sharia Law...if we made it that far.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

There isn''t a perfect solution to this. There will be plenty more innocent people that will die before this is resolved. ISIS will run out of Western hostages soon. The towns they have captured (killing males, but keeping females for sexual pleasure etc) would just need to be effectively nuked, killing a load of innocents in the process, to wipe them out, leaving the odd few splinter groups/individuals, who have no direction, eventually.

This won''t happen of course, because we in the Western World are more civilized.

[morty 0]

No easy answers here. We either install a multi national peace keeping force, or we pretty much leave Syria to burn.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

No peace keeping force is going to succeed in Syria I''m afraid, sponsoring local fighters with air support is a reasonable approach and will secure some success.

The "solution" will come from Iran, but that''s going to create further massive regional insecurity in the Middle East which could end up being a bigger threat to the west than ISIS ever was.