Football matches an easy target?

[Mr Apples 1,320]

If you believe in religion you may as well believe in pixies, leprechauns, trolls, sea monsters and the bigfoot. Purple''s point about the Nazis is well made, effectively they tried to create a new religion and therein lies the point...(any) religion is an artificial construct of the human race and so can be used to manipulate it''s followers.

 

Apples

[hogesar 9,665]

[quote user="Gainer the Gopher"]Hogesar, my comments about Boston were directed at Bore. Maybe you need help understanding the written word. Illiteracy among landless rural peasants like you is understandable. That''s why restaurants in Norwich have pictures in their menus.[/quote]

Pfft, the day i''m patronised by a red-neck American is the day civilisation around me crumbles. Note, I bolded the letter ''S''. Because that''s how it''s spelt. Not with a fucking ''Z''.

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Indy"]Not sure about all three but Hitler wrote in his book that he was doing the work in accordance with the creator!

I''m sure Stalin was an Othordox many Russian leaders were....

Its not the belief so much as the people who can convince the weak mined to follow them in whatever cause they see fit.[/quote]Stalin attended a seminary for a while but quickly became an atheist and all his actions in power, including the purges and mass killings, were motivated either by ideology or politics, depending on which seemed to him more appropriate. And the same would apply to Mao, who also racked up quite a death toll.The beliefs of Hitler and the other top Nazis are fascinating, if a bit confusing. But they owed pretty much everything to a crackpot mysticism rather than any orthodox religion.[/quote]Didn''t German military uniforms have the slogan "Got mit uns (God with us)" on them?

[/quote]Yes but not all mottos should be taken that seriously. Fox News claims it is "Fair and Balanced"...If there was an over-riding Nazi "theology" it was in a supposed Aryan superiority. Invoking God''s backing for that was standard practice, and many may have believed it. Hitler certainly attributed his escapes from death to divine providence. And you can portray the attempt to conquer Europe as a kind of crusade.

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Indy"]Not sure about all three but Hitler wrote in his book that he was doing the work in accordance with the creator!

I''m sure Stalin was an Othordox many Russian leaders were....

Its not the belief so much as the people who can convince the weak mined to follow them in whatever cause they see fit.[/quote]Stalin attended a seminary for a while but quickly became an atheist and all his actions in power, including the purges and mass killings, were motivated either by ideology or politics, depending on which seemed to him more appropriate. And the same would apply to Mao, who also racked up quite a death toll.The beliefs of Hitler and the other top Nazis are fascinating, if a bit confusing. But they owed pretty much everything to a crackpot mysticism rather than any orthodox religion.[/quote]Didn''t German military uniforms have the slogan "Got mit uns (God with us)" on them?

[/quote]Yes but not all mottos should be taken that seriously. Fox News claims it is "Fair and Balanced"...If there was an over-riding Nazi "theology" it was in a supposed Aryan superiority. Invoking God''s backing for that was standard practice, and many may have believed it. Hitler certainly attributed his escapes from death to divine providence. And you can portray the attempt to conquer Europe as a kind of crusade.[/quote]Now you''ve mentioned it there are a few similarities between Joeseph Goebbels and Roger Ailes!

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Well yes Mr Apples. But that view won''t stop at religion. It will then include all the doctrines and isms across the whole political and social spectrum leaving everyone with only themselves to serve. But then how much pain and suffering is caused by selfishness?

[Mr Apples 1,320]

Dunno Nige, I couldnt care less [:D][:D][:D]

 

Thats a fair point, but I''d rather people did a little more thinking for themselves rather than swallow whole the religion, doctrine, ism, theory, philosophy, etc. that suits their purposes. I''m not against anybody believing in religion, pixies or Harry Potter, just want them to recognise it for what it really is.

 

Apples

[hogesar 9,665]

[quote user="Mr Apples"]

Dunno Nige, I couldnt care less [:D][:D][:D]

 

Thats a fair point, but I''d rather people did a little more thinking for themselves rather than swallow whole the religion, doctrine, ism, theory, philosophy, etc. that suits their purposes. I''m not against anybody believing in religion, pixies or Harry Potter, just want them to recognise it for what it really is.

 

Apples

[/quote]

But if they recognised it as a make-believe world of history to fill a void in an otherwise empty space of their existence, i get the impression they wouldn''t be believing in it anymore..

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Lol buddy :)

But really that s some kind of weird reverse evangelism where unbelievers are trying to impose their unbelief on others.

[Mr Apples 1,320]

I suppose it depends how strong their faith in their particular belief system actually is (the difference between fundamentalist believers and believers lite)?!?!? Just because its make believe (and you know it) doesnt stop you from believing in it in general terms.

 

Apples

[Mr Apples 1,320]

Exactly...welcome to the Evangelical Church of Weird Reverse Unbelief (thats sounds so cool, I might just form it)!!! [:D][:D][:D]

 

Apples 

[Buh 0]

It has always seemed obtuse to me categorising myself as a "non-believer" when something is so simply wrong and it real it feels weird having to declare I don''t believe in it. It''s like officially declaring you don''t believe the world is flat. Surely it''s just obvious?

[Mr Apples 1,320]

Agree Buh, and it''s backed up by evidence. I''m not sure there''s anything to show the earth was created in 6 days (surely it would take at least two weeks) and is only a few thousand years old (apart from a book that says so...so it must be true).

 

Like (our) Newton, I believe in FACTS [:D]

 

Apples

[nutty nigel 7,533]

What we need to know is how old the earth is? And how long man has been on it? Why we are here? What is the purpose or meaning of life? Until we do its difficult to find the authority to dictate to others on what they believe.

On this thread I haven''t seen any God botherers bothering us with their unproven beliefs....

[lappinitup 629]

We do know that man was only second choice. Dinosaurs were first..........

[Mr Apples 1,320]

Well that''s easy (in order), ~4.5 billion years, ~250,000 years, we evolved like every other organism which has lived or continues to live on the earth, our only purpose (being an organism) is the continuance of the species. As I said before anyone is free to believe whatever they wish, that''s a matter of personal choice. Its just some belief systems are more credible (evidence-based) than others (faith-based).

 

Apples

 

[nutty nigel 7,533]

There is no proof in any of that buddy. So many scientists disagree. All you''ve done is quote the science which best fits the view you''re most comfortable with. Rather llike many followers of religion do.

[Buh 0]

Ever seen someone blow up a bus because they believe in science so much?

[Mr Apples 1,320]

They may disagree on the finer points, a few years here and there, etc. but the basics have to date not been disproven - and thus they remain ruling paradigms in the scientific world.

 

I should know...I''m a scientist. [:D]

 

Apples

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Well of course Apples buddy, you are the real deal big friendly harmless scientist that all of us on Rays Funds love to bits. But in answer to Buh - have you ever seen someone invent nuclear weapons because they bother God so much...

[Herman 9,758]

"Buh"

Ever seen someone blow up a bus because they believe in science so much?

No evil scientists and there wouldn''t be a bomb or a bus to blow up anyway.

[Mr Apples 1,320]

Hmmmmm I think he wanted us to, he put uranium on the planet and invented radioactive decay (or perhaps he was just teasing us)!!! [;)]

 

Strictly speaking, nuclear weapons have been very successful at maintaining peace. They finished one war and ensured that via the concept of mutually assured destruction their use ever again would be very unlikely. Yaaaaaaaaay for the nukes!

 

Apples

[Buh 0]

If God exists why would he allow a weapon as devastating as a nuclear bomb be invented

I agree with Stephen frys sentiment that if God is real I don''t want to know him but I''d go further and say if he does then he''s totally fuc4ing useless

And when they invented the nuke they didn''t do it out of religion or for religion. When they flew the planes into the towers it wasn''t the engineers at boeings fault it was the religious fanatics fault. Why is that hard for you to understand?

Religion is inherently evil

[nutty nigel 7,533]

Not people then Buh? Just religion. So how about doctors? Are they all inherently evil? Or just the ones like Shipman? If a doctor posted on here would he be somehow responsible for Shipman''s crimes? And what about celebrities? Are they all evil because of Jimmy Saville? If so does that make Stephen Fry a kiddy fiddler? And what about Roman Catholics? Are they all charged with the perversions of some of the clergy? You see with Delia and Fry on our board perhaps our very club is inherently evil....

But let''s leave relegion for a bit and consider the pain and suffering caused through land ownership. In this utopian world where we all serve ourselves who owns the land? As we just evolved then is it survival of the strongest? How do we ascertain who the strongest is? By armwrestling? Or do we fight wars using science as weapons of destruction? Maybe all scientists are really inherently evil but then I really like Apples!

[Buh 0]

A child is born a blank slate. You fill them with information

I''d rather fill there heads with facts than "God" I think that will make them a better person.

I''d like to think teaching them that faith in something isn''t as strong at working on what is real.

Also, that by following a medieval book of lies won''t get you into paradise forever.

[nutty nigel 7,533]

I can happily live alongside another human being who holds those views Buh! At long last you''ve stopped with the witch hunters broad brush.

And just another word about Stephen Fry. He was asked his opinion about religion and gave it honestly. He didn''t rant about other human beings being evil. And as I said originally he happily works alongside a devout Christian for the good of our club.

[Herman 9,758]

"Religion is inherently evil"

It really isn''t you know. As Nutty points out,the people who commit these crimes under the guise of religion are evil. The worse are the ''teachers'' who misuse their religious texts to brainwash people to commit these crimes. Religious texts and teachings can be a benefit to humankind but unfortunately there are some evil/stupid people that misinterpret them either on purpose or through ignorance etc.

[Gainer the Gopher 0]

Buh keeps puking up the same nonsense despite your eloquent explanations, nutty.

99% of the work churches do is helpful and positive. Buh is stuck on the 1%. He''s the guy who won''t wear a seatbelt so he can he thrown clear of an accident even tho he''s far more likely to survive if buckled in.

Apples seems stuck on hard core believers, Puritans. Most believers have a much more casual approach to their faith. They believe in God but don''t take religious literature verbatim. Im pretty sure the Pope doesn''t think the universe is 6000 years old. Most religious people accept evolution is likely albeit many think humans are different and don''t accept we started out the same as all the other vertebrates. They don''t think life just happened but accident either. But they sre, in many cases, extremely bright, open minded, well intentioned people.

[Buh 0]

If they think that then they are stupid.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Gainer the Gopher"]They don''t think life just happened but accident either.[/quote]If the answer is God created everything, then the next question must be.....who created God?

[Buh 0]

"God works in mysterious ways" I believe is the answer