Grant Holt - Cheat!

[grantroederdisaster 0]

"Yellow Rider"]

If PL was the top manager that so many assume he is then I''m afraid to say he would have sorted out Holt and some of his ridiculous behaviour a long time ago. Fact is that as long as his theatrics and clear conning of refs works in our favour then the boy PL is obviously happy.

''All part of the game''you say - maybe but there''s no reason why we should lower ourselves to the cheating levels of others. Holt has a terrible reputation now and refs will (quite rightly) be very wary now of giving us a penalty whenever he goes down. He will take fearful stick at Portman Road and only has himself to blame.

The so annoying thing about all this is that the guy is actually a damn good player and if he just concentrated on playing the game, competing for every ball and battled to keep on his feet, I''m sure he would have even more goals by now! 

Er Look what Lamberts done for us since taking over the managers job!

One thing that Holt has cut out lately is the silly over the top bad tackles which is a good thing!

Yes Holt is a diver, good at drawing fouls and rightfully has a reputation for doing it but the Damien Delaney tugback was a sending off regardless of the fact Holt went down easily and the fact that Delaney and none of his s cummer team mates complained said it all!

Sure Holt should concentrate on playing the game rather than looking for free kicks &penalties in certain situations but quite a lot of the times he plays on a foul, he is actually fouled by the opposing player because hes that good, the opposing players only option was to foul him!

Yes its not a nice part of the game but I will always remember Jerry Goss getting taken out by a hidious tackle worthy of a straight red card by a certain Eric Cantona in a 1993/94 FA cup game at Carrow Road and because Gossy was too honest, getting up to his feet quickly, Cantona got away with it Scot free!

In the Delaney tugging back Holt incident in the Derby last November which rightfully earnt the S cum slogger a straight red card, yes Holty could of stayed on his feet but had he done so the ref may of let Delaney stay on the field?

Oh and without Holt in the side, I supect we''d be a bottom half team!

[James Kent 0]

If a player goes down after they have been fouled it''s not a dive, it''s being clever to try and win a penalty.

If a player goes down with no contact it''s a dive and should be booked.

Personally I felt it should have been a pen and had it happened outside the box we would have won a free kick, so what''s the difference?

[Yellow Rider 0]

[quote user="crab"]You don''t call your own player a cheat. He was trying to win a penalty. That isn''t cheating. He knew contact was coming and waited for it. Not everything is black and white. I know people are disappointed with the result, but why have a pop at our star player when you''ve just watched possibly the most cynical team to come to Carrow road this season. If Holt had got the penalty decision given, if would have been everything PNE deserved.[/quote]

Do you honestly believe those comments - read them again please.

So, let me get this right as I''m sometimes slow on the uptake. If an opposition player goes down like Holt did and gets a penalty then you will have no complaints obviously. Yeah right!! Bet you''d be the first guy on your feet bellowing all manner of abuse at the player!

Re the point about ''contact'' - sorry but you''ve fallen for this media, MOTD line that has been peddled in recent years where the ''experts'' pore over the slow motion replays from every conceivable angle trying to prove this ''contact'' evidence. Lo and behold if there is ''contact'' then the ''diver'' is immediately absolved from any blame and the pundits scream ''PENALTY''. For gods sake football IS a ''contact'' sport. There is nothing wrong with ''contact'' UNLESS it becomes a foul! Holt was not fouled in a million years but decided to try and con the ref. who fortunately knew better. Holt cheated and you know it.  

[CJ 0]

[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]"Yellow Rider"]

If PL was the top manager that so many assume he is then I''m afraid to say he would have sorted out Holt and some of his ridiculous behaviour a long time ago. Fact is that as long as his theatrics and clear conning of refs works in our favour then the boy PL is obviously happy.

''All part of the game''you say - maybe but there''s no reason why we should lower ourselves to the cheating levels of others. Holt has a terrible reputation now and refs will (quite rightly) be very wary now of giving us a penalty whenever he goes down. He will take fearful stick at Portman Road and only has himself to blame.

The so annoying thing about all this is that the guy is actually a damn good player and if he just concentrated on playing the game, competing for every ball and battled to keep on his feet, I''m sure he would have even more goals by now! 

Er Look what Lamberts done for us since taking over the managers job!

One thing that Holt has cut out lately is the silly over the top bad tackles which is a good thing!

Yes Holt is a diver, good at drawing fouls and rightfully has a reputation for doing it but the Damien Delaney tugback was a sending off regardless of the fact Holt went down easily and the fact that Delaney and none of his s cummer team mates complained said it all!

Sure Holt should concentrate on playing the game rather than looking for free kicks &penalties in certain situations but quite a lot of the times he plays on a foul, he is actually fouled by the opposing player because hes that good, the opposing players only option was to foul him!

Yes its not a nice part of the game but I will always remember Jerry Goss getting taken out by a hidious tackle worthy of a straight red card by a certain Eric Cantona in a 1993/94 FA cup game at Carrow Road and because Gossy was too honest, getting up to his feet quickly, Cantona got away with it Scot free!

In the Delaney tugging back Holt incident in the Derby last November which rightfully earnt the S cum slogger a straight red card, yes Holty could of stayed on his feet but had he done so the ref may of let Delaney stay on the field?

Oh and without Holt in the side, I supect we''d be a bottom half team![/quote]

It is interesting to see how some fans think Holt is a "cheat", I have to disagree I would rather say he is a player who realizes when to try to carry on even though fouled and when not to! I remember when Jackson was clearly fouled in the box against the Scum went down and got a yellow for his trouble, very poor ref. He was not cheating just got an arm across his chest to stop him getting to ball.

Same for Holt . Do people really think when thru on goal he would just dive, of course not. But get a push in the back by the defender just as lining up to shoot lose balance and over you go. Just like Sheff Utd penalty defender knew by just stepping in way would stop Holt run. Yes Holt could have gone round but probably lost chance to score.

QPR and Sheff Utd manager knew what they were doing saying about Holt and amazingly seems to even be working with our fans. Just like the Preston defender knew against Holt a little nudge at right moment was unlikely to give a penalty.

I have no problem with a ref not giving a penalty because he has to be CERTAIN it is a foul because of the consequences and clearly will sometimes give one outside he would not inside box. This reaching for a yellow however is silly and should be given only if he is CERTAIN a dive. As many have pointed out here Holt did get pushed probably not a penalty .

What worries me is if that booking is because of reputation not fact. Rather like red card he got at Reading

[crab 0]

Yellow Rider, let me clarify that Holt misjudged the situation; he had time to get a very decent effort in. But any striker in the league, when clean through on goal and given the opportunity, will cut across the defender chasing back. If you then get your legs clipped, its a foul.

Holt did the same thing outside the box on at least a couple of occasions yesterday, and won free kicks. Obviously not all ''contact'' amounts to a foul, but if that contact impedes you, and the tackler doesn''t win the ball, then it''s probably a foul.

Call it cheating if you wish, but i see no difference between trying to win a free kick (or pen) like this, and trying to win a decision by backing into a defender when challenging for a long ball, again to draw a foul.

As for the comparisons with Johnson, yes, i called him all the names under the sun at the time. But looking back, many of the decisions he won were legitimate ones. The worst accusation you can level at him is that he was ''theatrical'' when going to ground. I bet that there were no Palace fans at the time callling Johnson a cheat! So why are some of our own fans so keen to slag off Holt? And that''s exactly what''s happening here- ''Cheat'' is probably the most offensive thing to call a professional sportsman.

Finally, i think most would agree that the Sheff Utd penalty was soft. But again in Holt''s defence, i don''t think he was even playing for a penalty on that occasion. He got legitimately muscled out of possession and the ref gave us a soft decision. Just because an unjust decision is given, doesn''t mean that someone has cheated.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,042]

I am with Top Banana on this one, I think Holt is a legend but the side of the game where he needlessly fouls opponents and dives frustrates the hell out of me. The response from Ginger Pele saddens me from the perspective of acceptance of a side of the game that is so wrong, I really believe the football authorities need to start to take severe action against all forms of cheating (diving, feigning injury etc). It is inevitable that this sort of behaviour percolates down to the local leagues and it is understandable why there is a shortage of referees in these leagues....

[I am a Banana 0]

Cheat is not fair to call a pro sportmans? what about when they ''do/take'' drugs is that not cheating? If you are trying to gain an advantage in an unfair way that is cheating, and holt did just that! I haven''t seen it again, and tbh i dont really want to!

[Yellow Rider 0]

Crab- although we clearly diasagree on this one you''ve made some very good points in your last post so that''s fair dos.

I''m a big Holt fan but that''s based on his presence, leadership qualities and being a damn good player (when he puts his mind to it). I do take issue with your basic stance that because Holt ...''is one of ours'' then he is somehow above the law and can pretty much do what he wants to get favourable decisions even if that means going down when so much as brushed by an opponent. It just leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth from the pont of view of fair play. I agree with you that all teams get decisions that go against them which were ''unlucky'' or ''unjust'' but that''s mostly down to the fact that officials are human and have split seconds to give a verdict. Getting a decision when you''ve cheated or conned the ref. though is totally wrong.

[CJ 0]

For all those idiots who labeled Holt a cheat watch the BBC replay and you will see the Preston defender clearly catches Holts trailing leg hence Holt goes down.I agree not deliberate by defender but you have to get out of way when you are behind player. Should have been penalty and probably straight red.I really struggle to see how anyone including the ref saw it as a dive, as many have pointed out why dive when bearing down on goal and more importantly how on earth would Holt know a defender near enough behind to make dive look genuine. He clearly only has eyes on ball and going for it when tripped. He was perfectly balanced until caught by defenderTo all those who said he dived you are muppets and what worries me is the ref didnt give it when to me that is routine decision. In fact the more I look at it the more angry I get for f*s sake the Preston player ends up falling over Holt

[Guest]

I sit upstairs in the river end right in line with where this happened ... it looked like a dive to me and everybody around me. I can fully understand why Holt got booked for this.[:|]

[Gingerpele 0]

If you sit in line with it, you don''t exactly have a good view? (unless he was coming from the side) Because Holt''s body would be blocking your view of the other players legs......

The referee doesn''t have a replay, so its all well and good afterwards saying it wasn''t a dive, but during the match all that matters is the officials view....

[alysha 0]

I haven''t seen the replay, so haven''t benefited from other camera angles but from where I was sitting it looked like a blatent dive, and even if there was contact which put him off his stride to shoot then fair enough but at least go down more realistically, as it  just looked like a blantent dive was actually embarrasing. He is increasingly getting a reputation for this and for those who say it doesn''t put doubt in the refs head...Holt should have had a blantent penalty against Cardiff, couldn''t understand how the ref and linesmen missed it, but then again this penalty appeal came just a week after Warnock''s comments

[CJ 0]

[quote user="Pigs in Space"]I sit upstairs in the river end right in line with where this happened ... it looked like a dive to me and everybody around me. I can fully understand why Holt got booked for this.[:|][/quote]Well everyone has done it even playing around as a kid , tap someones trailing leg and they can go down like they have been shot and that is clearly what happened here. As Holt said why would he go down when he is about to pull the trigger and thru on goal and defender behind himWhat worries me is when even our own fans doubt it and think he dived. Starting to believe the hype from opposition manager like Colin

[canaryfan68 0]

At the end of the day the ref didn''t give it, move on!!

Holt has to decide what he wants to do, as at times he is far too easily moved off the ball.

 

[Lennon7 0]

I saw it from literally a few yards away (front of the n&p) stand and I gotta say it looked like a 100% dive. However, on watching the replay this morning, in a way it does look like a foul, certainly from that angle,

[CJ 0]

Best you look at replay then and think again as clear contact on trailing leg as Preston player ran into back of Holt. I suspect even he was surprised when no penalty given . Why oh why would he dive given he was running towards ball one on one to keeperGet a grip and stop believing Colin

[paul moy 235]

Neil Adams during commentary and on seeing the replay said it was a dive and that he deserved a booking. That''s good enough for me.

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="Yellow Rider"]

[quote user="crab"]You don''t call your own player a cheat. He was trying to win a penalty. That isn''t cheating. He knew contact was coming and waited for it. Not everything is black and white. I know people are disappointed with the result, but why have a pop at our star player when you''ve just watched possibly the most cynical team to come to Carrow road this season. If Holt had got the penalty decision given, if would have been everything PNE deserved.[/quote]

Do you honestly believe those comments - read them again please.

So, let me get this right as I''m sometimes slow on the uptake. If an opposition player goes down like Holt did and gets a penalty then you will have no complaints obviously. Yeah right!! Bet you''d be the first guy on your feet bellowing all manner of abuse at the player!

Re the point about ''contact'' - sorry but you''ve fallen for this media, MOTD line that has been peddled in recent years where the ''experts'' pore over the slow motion replays from every conceivable angle trying to prove this ''contact'' evidence. Lo and behold if there is ''contact'' then the ''diver'' is immediately absolved from any blame and the pundits scream ''PENALTY''. For gods sake football IS a ''contact'' sport. There is nothing wrong with ''contact'' UNLESS it becomes a foul! Holt was not fouled in a million years but decided to try and con the ref. who fortunately knew better. Holt cheated and you know it.  

[/quote]

Agreed. If a player goes down when he could have stayed up, that is attempting to con the referee, and is cheating. This has now backfired on Holt as referees are aware that he will go down easily on mimimal contact. Having said that, what is the point of trying to win a penalty if we don''t take them seriously anyway.

[jarroldstander 0]

All Holty was trying to do was go to ground. I don''t think that trying to get to the ball to get a shot on goal was even an option for him.

 

[Guest]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]If you sit in line with it, you don''t exactly have a good view? (unless he was coming from the side) Because Holt''s body would be blocking your view of the other players legs...... The referee doesn''t have a replay, so its all well and good afterwards saying it wasn''t a dive, but during the match all that matters is the officials view....[/quote]

 

As I said, I sit upstairs in the river end ... I was looking down on the play from above, if there was any degre of contact it was minimal. Holt did (and often does) go down very easily. Sometimes it works for him/us, this time it backfired. I have no complaints either way.

[Gingerpele 0]

He''s been doing it since he joined? Presumably before as well....

[Yellow Rider 0]

[quote user="CJ"]For all those idiots who labeled Holt a cheat watch the BBC replay and you will see the Preston defender clearly catches Holts trailing leg hence Holt goes down.
I agree not deliberate by defender but you have to get out of way when you are behind player. Should have been penalty and probably straight red.
I really struggle to see how anyone including the ref saw it as a dive, as many have pointed out why dive when bearing down on goal and more importantly how on earth would Holt know a defender near enough behind to make dive look genuine. He clearly only has eyes on ball and going for it when tripped. He was perfectly balanced until caught by defender
To all those who said he dived you are muppets and what worries me is the ref didnt give it when to me that is routine decision. In fact the more I look at it the more angry I get for f*s sake the Preston player ends up falling over Holt
[/quote]

Thank you for labelling me an idiot and muppet CJ - how very civil of you. Won''t lose any sleep over it so don''t worry!

Just watched it again on the BBC sports site - in fact as it doesn''t have slow motion or different angle shots, It''s very difficult to get a clear view. Having said that if your back leg was clipped and you''re travelling at pace (as Holt was), I believe you would stumble and fall very awkwardly. Watch it again CJ - the boy Holt is clearly looking for ''contact'' and when there was, he sprawls himself theatrically.

Do I still think he ''cheated'' - Yes, I stand by what I said yesterday. If he hadn''t got ''previous'' with this sort of thing then I would have given him the benefit of the doubt! 

 

[Guest]

Why start yet another thread on the issue?

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="paul moy"]

Neil Adams during commentary and on seeing the replay said it was a dive and that he deserved a booking. That''s good enough for me.

[/quote]

 

Why?

[hogesar 9,766]

I hate our fans. Are leading talisman, our captain and our top scorer goes down in the area after contact and everyone calls him a cheat. I know a lot of us norfolk folk like to live in our own little bubbles but if you spend anytime watching a decent forward play in this league or any other, you would know they would do exactly the same. Watching the replay there''s contact, if he feels he''s going to lose his footing, or not get to the ball in time then modern day football, whether you like it or not, suggests going down is the best alternative.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Pigs in Space"]Why start yet another thread on the issue?[/quote]

 

Has there already been one then?

["""""""""Ben """"""""""" 0]

I sit lower n&p and thought it was a blatent dive.

[Pinks 0]

[quote user="hogesar"]I hate our fans. Are leading talisman, our captain and our top scorer goes down in the area after contact and everyone calls him a cheat. I know a lot of us norfolk folk like to live in our own little bubbles but if you spend anytime watching a decent forward play in this league or any other, you would know they would do exactly the same. Watching the replay there''s contact, if he feels he''s going to lose his footing, or not get to the ball in time then modern day football, whether you like it or not, suggests going down is the best alternative.[/quote]

Hurrah. Well said.

[Guest]

[quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="Pigs in Space"]Why start yet another thread on the issue?[/quote]

 

Has there already been one then?

[/quote]

It would be lovely if the people that moderate these forums could mark merged threads as such...

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="hogesar"]I hate our fans. Are leading talisman, our captain and our top scorer goes down in the area after contact and everyone calls him a cheat. I know a lot of us norfolk folk like to live in our own little bubbles but if you spend anytime watching a decent forward play in this league or any other, you would know they would do exactly the same. Watching the replay there''s contact, if he feels he''s going to lose his footing, or not get to the ball in time then modern day football, whether you like it or not, suggests going down is the best alternative.[/quote]

 

... but going down when you can stay up is cheating, regardless of who is doing it. I admire Grant but this is a facet of football that I dislike intensely, and the fact that he is our talisman cannot change that fact. Once a team gets a reputation it is very difficult to shake off and unfortunately we are now tainted and Grant needs to concentrate on scoring goals rather than trying to con penalties out of the ref.