Dont be fooled by the frees-wheres the money gone?

[Arthur Whittle 0]

These figures are based on what the pro boarders were quoting to claim we are ambitious.At the start of the summer everyone was saying we had 5m to spend, so wheres it gone? You can add Earnshaws 3.5m that the board promised would go into transfers, so if we believe this we have 8.5m available. So what do we have to show for it? Jamie Cureton, David Marshall and 3 or 4 bosmans. Now dont get me wrong if a decnt player is available on a bosman sign him, but im not getting carried away with the bosmans as none are proven at this level. Now i know every player has signing on fees and agents fees but realisticly the bosmans would only have been around £50-75,000 each and i doubt Marshall and Cureton were much more. Ok we have signed players and im not slagging them off because we havent seen them yet, but we have also lost out on proven talent and its not a case of us not having the money-or have we? Why did Eastwood go for only 1.5m and we made little attempt to tempt him here even though Peter Grant said he wanted him.

Heres my breakdown of how the money has been spent { apparantly}

in

3m original transfer kitty

2m from turners

3.5m Earnshaw

=8.5m 

out

800,000 max with signing on fees etc. on cureton

1m max on marshall with signing on fees etc

Ostemboor, Gilks, Brellier, signing on fees 150-200,000 max

Dave striker 700,000 with siging on fees ?

=2-2.7m depending on Dave striker

That leaves anywhere between 5 and 6.5m

This is my real issue, earlier in the month Delia supporters were saying we had no right to slag them off as we had plenty of money to spend and they would be more ambitious this season, so why havent we spent this money and why is no one bothered that we have made little attempt to bring in proven quality-not all proven players are on bosmans after all. It seems to me that people are quick to defend the board yet we seem to have been hoodwinked by 5 cheap signings.Surely we need quality big signings to make this team promotion contenders. I personally think that apart from Marshall the rest could turn out to be bench warmers and no better than what we have already. On top of that Earnshaw has already gone, now Ethuhu, Safri and Colin are being linked to moves away. i understand its difficult for Peter Grant and am very supportive of him as i think hes got a lot of fire in his belly but i feel is hands are being tied by the board. We need a big signing to bring back that feel good factor. Marshall i rate highly, Ostemboor was in the league 1 team of the year but thats the old division 3 for gods sake! Dave the striker plays his trade in Czech republic yet just what is the standard of football like over there and how long will he take to settle-ill keep an open mind on him, Cureton will score goals but hes not one for the future, he may struggle unless we sign someone in the Iwelomu mold. Gilks is a bench man, Brellier, well if he is that good why did we face little competition in signing him even from Burley. May sound negative but i find this very frustrating.

Your opinions please

Cheers

[Show Me What You Gooot! 0]

I thought the Turners £2m was to balance the books, not for transfers?

And I''ve no idea what the original transfer kitty was. All I heard is they wouldn''t need to sell Earnie to raise funds. Did they ever actually say what they had to start with?

[ricardo 8,109]

You are dead right Arthur.

Those are my calculations also. Perhaps we could argue about the original transfer budget and what the Turners put in but we most certainly have not spent the Earnie money yet.

Some people have mentioned the fact that we might get this money in stages so can''t spend it yet. They seem to have forgotten that the McKenzie , Ashton, Green money was also staged so a tranch of that should now be rolling in.

If we don''t spend big on a central defender then I for one will be displeased.

[Ginja 43]

[quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

3m original transfer kitty

2m from turners

3.5m Earnshaw

=8.5m 

[/quote]Firstly its pure speculation on the 3m transfer fund, and the 2m Turners money was to balance the books so no sales were necessary, that did not go into the transfer fund and that was made very clear. Personally I make the transfer fund at about 5-6 million with 2 million already gone I reckon we''ve got 2.5-3 milion left realistically. I find it particularly funny you think we had 8.5 million to spend on transfers [:P]

[Mello Yello 2,588]

[quote user="UEA Graduate Canary"][quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

3m original transfer kitty

2m from turners

3.5m Earnshaw

=8.5m 

[/quote]

Firstly its pure speculation on the 3m transfer fund, and the 2m Turners money was to balance the books so no sales were necessary, that did not go into the transfer fund and that was made very clear. Personally I make the transfer fund at about 5-6 million with 2 million already gone I reckon we''ve got 2.5-3 milion left realistically. I find it particularly funny you think we had 8.5 million to spend on transfers [:P]

[/quote]

And your pertinent reply..........is also, ''just pure speculation''.......[8-)]

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="UEA Graduate Canary"][quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

3m original transfer kitty

2m from turners

3.5m Earnshaw

=8.5m 

[/quote]

Firstly its pure speculation on the 3m transfer fund, and the 2m Turners money was to balance the books so no sales were necessary, that did not go into the transfer fund and that was made very clear. Personally I make the transfer fund at about 5-6 million with 2 million already gone I reckon we''ve got 2.5-3 milion left realistically. I find it particularly funny you think we had 8.5 million to spend on transfers [:P]

[/quote]

Yes it is pure speculation, Speculation on behalf of people who are saying the board are going to be more ambitious this season as quoted from the pro board posters. These are not my personal calculations of the transfer kitty, i was merely asking where the money had gone with regards to the people who thought we ever had it in the first place.

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="paint_me_yellow"]

I thought the Turners £2m was to balance the books, not for transfers?

And I''ve no idea what the original transfer kitty was. All I heard is they wouldn''t need to sell Earnie to raise funds. Did they ever actually say what they had to start with?

[/quote]

We put in bids of 2m plus for Sharp and 500.000 for Marshall prior to the Earnshaw transfer which would suggest we had somewhere in the region of 3m before his departure. As for the Turners 2m loan, i am only quoting what some have said on here that it is actually for on field investment.

[Time to go Delia 0]

Must say i had been wondering when we were going to actually spend some of our transfer fund , truth is we have spent nothing because Earnies sale covers all we have brought in . Do not doubt our ambition ? its hard to do anything other than doubt it .

[Mr_Chimp 0]

Hang on - we''re now bemoaning the fact that the manager hasn''t spent big to get the players he thinks will make our team better?

[First Jedi 0]

Arthur - good points all well made. I''m hoping the reason why it hasn''t been spent is simply they haven''t been able to attract players worth £2m plus or whatever. I don''t believe they would blow that money on anyone but a real quality investment - like Ashton or Earnshaw previously. I''m glad they are building a squad off, free or cheap players. I''m glad they aren''t blowing money equally.

[CRAFTY CANARY 0]

Dont forget,we also had extra money/final payments to come in from the Sales

of Ashton,Mckenie and Green.Surely this would have gone into the pot as well.

As this been taken into condideration?

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="Mr_Chimp"]Hang on - we''re now bemoaning the fact that the manager hasn''t spent big to get the players he thinks will make our team better?
[/quote]

Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood, why didnt we better the wolves bid,Grant came out and said he wanted Sharp, why didnt we better the Sheff utd bid? Grant came out and said he wanted Varney, why didnt we better Charltons bid? Grant ends up with Cureton, why didnt he come out as soon as Cureton made it cear he wanted out of Colchester and sign him straight away? answer me that? in my opinion poor PG has ended up with his last Choice because the Board bottled it.

[hurricane 0]

Come on guys....its obviously a clear case of prudence with ambition......get with the programme!!

[A Load of Squit 6,260]

[quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

[quote user="Mr_Chimp"]Hang on - we''re now bemoaning the fact that the manager hasn''t spent big to get the players he thinks will make our team better?
[/quote]

Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood, why didnt we better the wolves bid,Grant came out and said he wanted Sharp, why didnt we better the Sheff utd bid? Grant came out and said he wanted Varney, why didnt we better Charltons bid? Grant ends up with Cureton, why didnt he come out as soon as Cureton made it cear he wanted out of Colchester and sign him straight away? answer me that? in my opinion poor PG has ended up with his last Choice because the Board bottled it.

[/quote]

Fortunatley for us all your opinion does not count as it based on nothing more than supposition.

 

[Graham Humphrey 13]

As has been stated before, Sharp wanted to go to Sheffield Utd and Eastwood wanted to go to Wolves. Also I''m pretty sure Varney wanted to go to Charlton (our bid was accepted I think) but I might be wrong with that one. The point is we could have offered £20m for those players but if they want to go elsewhere it''s irrelevant.

[Boogle 0]

[quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

[quote user="Mr_Chimp"]Hang on - we''re now bemoaning the fact that the manager hasn''t spent big to get the players he thinks will make our team better?
[/quote]

Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood, why didnt we better the wolves bid,Grant came out and said he wanted Sharp, why didnt we better the Sheff utd bid? Grant came out and said he wanted Varney, why didnt we better Charltons bid? Grant ends up with Cureton, why didnt he come out as soon as Cureton made it cear he wanted out of Colchester and sign him straight away? answer me that? in my opinion poor PG has ended up with his last Choice because the Board bottled it.

[/quote]

Fortunatley for us all your opinion does not count as it based on nothing more than supposition.

 

[/quote]

Ever considered that people think your opinion doesnt count?

For someone whos opinion doesnt count he doesnt half get a lot of replys.

[Boogle 0]

[quote user="UEA Graduate Canary"][quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

3m original transfer kitty

2m from turners

3.5m Earnshaw

=8.5m 

[/quote]

Firstly its pure speculation on the 3m transfer fund, and the 2m Turners money was to balance the books so no sales were necessary, that did not go into the transfer fund and that was made very clear. Personally I make the transfer fund at about 5-6 million with 2 million already gone I reckon we''ve got 2.5-3 milion left realistically. I find it particularly funny you think we had 8.5 million to spend on transfers [:P]

[/quote]

If by your sums you subtract 2m from 5-6m it does not leave 2.5-3m it leaves 3-4m.Unless you believe we spent 1m in signing on fees, in which case why have you subtracted 2m when we have only spent 1.6m? I thought you were supposed to be a UEA graduate?

On the theory of signing on fees, a player recieves 10% of the value of the transfer and pays the agent out of his money. Clubs no longer pay agents directly it comes out of the players pocket if they choose to use an agent.

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

[quote user="Mr_Chimp"]Hang on - we''re now bemoaning the fact that the manager hasn''t spent big to get the players he thinks will make our team better?
[/quote]

Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood, why didnt we better the wolves bid,Grant came out and said he wanted Sharp, why didnt we better the Sheff utd bid? Grant came out and said he wanted Varney, why didnt we better Charltons bid? Grant ends up with Cureton, why didnt he come out as soon as Cureton made it cear he wanted out of Colchester and sign him straight away? answer me that? in my opinion poor PG has ended up with his last Choice because the Board bottled it.

[/quote]

Fortunatley for us all your opinion does not count as it based on nothing more than supposition.

 

[/quote]

Agreed i have no evidence other than what has been suggested on here and what Grant stated when questioned if he was interested in such players but surely if Grant had said he wanted those players and we had the money from the Earnie sale plus the cash that was bid for Sharp/Marshall we could of got at least Eastwood. Im wondering if the sale of Earnie will ever be invested into the squad. I very much doubt it to be honest.

[Hairy Canary 773]

The £2m that the Turners put in was clearly identified as money to prevent sales to balance the books so was never transfer money. That leaves (on your calculations) £3 - 4.5 million.

Then there is the £3m that you state was in the kitty to start with. You back that up by quoting £2m bids we made for top strikers as proff that that money existed. Its equally possible that the board were bidding for those players with the expectation that Earnie could well be going and using the money from him to finance the approach. That leaves £1 - 2.5 million.

Then there is the fact that we have lost £7 million in parachute payments this year. Some of that has been recouped by reducing the wage bill by getting rid of no hope players but it is obvious that that sort of shortfall cannot be fully recovered. Heance my specualtion is that there is very little left in the kitty.

So your calculations show we have millions to spend and mine show we have nothing. All it goes to prove is that you can do anything with figures and neither of us has any idea what the true picture is. 

[Old Shuck 300]

"Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood, why didn''t he better the Wolves bid?"

Because Eastwood wasn''t interested in joining Norwich- or Charlton come to that- he wanted to join Wolves, end of story. What is the club meant to do, put him in a sack and make him sign a contract at gunpoint? Do we really want a player playing for us who clearly would prefer to be at another club? Do we even want to be chasing a player who has made it clear which club he wants to join? You talk about our ambition, what about Eastwoods? If he wanted Prem football, shouldn''t he have joined Charlton who have a far better chance than either us -or Wolves- of promotion next season. What is he motivated by, therefore-football or money? Do we want a player who is in it more for the money than to achieve anything in the game?

Same with Sharp. He wanted to join Sheffield United. End of, as above. 

Varney. Charlton offered him silly money, its supposedly over £20k a week-want us to pay an ex-Crewe player that much money, want us to break the existing pay structure and have the rest of the squad demanding parity? Dressing room unrest?

Cureton WANTED to join Norwich. And, argue away, he was the highest goalscorer in the CCC last season, Eastwood was no where. Cureton was half the cost of Eastwood, transfer fee and I would imagine, wages. I know who I''d prefer.

Where has the money gone? Well, I hope some of it has gone on paying off some debts. Or should the club run at a loss, year after year after year? Is that acceptable to you? It isn''t to the people that the club owe money to, what are they going to do in 3,4,5 years time if the debts keep on going up, laugh and say "never mind, you keep the money and spend it on lots of players" or are they going to take action to get their money back, look what happened at Leeds, they are where they are because their Chairman was a supporter and was in a position to do what all of you think we should do, spend money we haven''t got and will never have.

The way some people go on, you''d think that is what we should be doing. Bet you aren''t so cavalier with your own incomes and expenses-yet its OK to sit there and make unrealistic demands of someone elses? OK, I can play that game, lets do it with all of yours-got a house worth £200''000? Hell, what sort of ambition is that, go on, get out there and buy one for £400''000, you earnt £40''000 last year alone, wheres the money gone? Only driving a Ford Focus? God help us all, you''re happy with that and so-and-so up the road is swanning about in a Lexus, why didn''t you make a bid for that Lexus? Lack of motoring ambition, get out there and buy one. Only going to France on holiday? See you''re accepting the cheap option again, you and the wife have bottled it, why can''t you go for three weeks in New Zealand like some others are? Can''t afford it-thats got nothingn to do with it, go anyway, wheres the ambition and where has all the money gone...?

 

[Smudger 0]

Truth is that we nevere ever had any money in the transfer kitty... as I have stated time and time again.. but did anybody listen?

FACT is also that the board planned to sell Earnshaw all along and invest part of that money only on the team... they know it, I know it and anybody isn''t as naive as hell knows it too!!!  [:D]

[Stevie Wonder 0]

Good post Arthur, I posted something similar on another thread i.e apart from Marshall are any of the others better than what we have/had is Brellier better than Safri? Is Cureton better than Earnie? The signings so far have improved the squad but not necessarily the first eleven. Like you, I''m not knocking the new players and hope they become legends but we definitely need at least 2 more players namely a centre half & striker (could be David Striker) plus one for one replacements on any further departures i.e Colin, Safri etc.

I would like to have seen a signing to get all his excited in the way that Hux, Ashton & Earnie did - the only one left who could do this would possibly be Zamora.

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Arthur Whittle"]Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood,[/quote]

From Waghorn :

"I''ve never, ever enquired about Freddy," said Grant. "So I don''t know about that story. I''ve never enquired about that one.

 

[Arthur Whittle 0]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]

"Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood, why didn''t he better the Wolves bid?"

Because Eastwood wasn''t interested in joining Norwich- or Charlton come to that- he wanted to join Wolves, end of story. What is the club meant to do, put him in a sack and make him sign a contract at gunpoint? Do we really want a player playing for us who clearly would prefer to be at another club? Do we even want to be chasing a player who has made it clear which club he wants to join? You talk about our ambition, what about Eastwoods? If he wanted Prem football, shouldn''t he have joined Charlton who have a far better chance than either us -or Wolves- of promotion next season. What is he motivated by, therefore-football or money? Do we want a player who is in it more for the money than to achieve anything in the game?

Same with Sharp. He wanted to join Sheffield United. End of, as above. 

Varney. Charlton offered him silly money, its supposedly over £20k a week-want us to pay an ex-Crewe player that much money, want us to break the existing pay structure and have the rest of the squad demanding parity? Dressing room unrest?

Cureton WANTED to join Norwich. And, argue away, he was the highest goalscorer in the CCC last season, Eastwood was no where. Cureton was half the cost of Eastwood, transfer fee and I would imagine, wages. I know who I''d prefer.

Where has the money gone? Well, I hope some of it has gone on paying off some debts. Or should the club run at a loss, year after year after year? Is that acceptable to you? It isn''t to the people that the club owe money to, what are they going to do in 3,4,5 years time if the debts keep on going up, laugh and say "never mind, you keep the money and spend it on lots of players" or are they going to take action to get their money back, look what happened at Leeds, they are where they are because their Chairman was a supporter and was in a position to do what all of you think we should do, spend money we haven''t got and will never have.

The way some people go on, you''d think that is what we should be doing. Bet you aren''t so cavalier with your own incomes and expenses-yet its OK to sit there and make unrealistic demands of someone elses? OK, I can play that game, lets do it with all of yours-got a house worth £200''000? Hell, what sort of ambition is that, go on, get out there and buy one for £400''000, you earnt £40''000 last year alone, wheres the money gone? Only driving a Ford Focus? God help us all, you''re happy with that and so-and-so up the road is swanning about in a Lexus, why didn''t you make a bid for that Lexus? Lack of motoring ambition, get out there and buy one. Only going to France on holiday? See you''re accepting the cheap option again, you and the wife have bottled it, why can''t you go for three weeks in New Zealand like some others are? Can''t afford it-thats got nothingn to do with it, go anyway, wheres the ambition and where has all the money gone...?

 

[/quote]

Ive taken it what you have said but ultimately we are languishing in the bottom half of a league we shouldnt be in if the club was managed in the right way. Cureton WAS third choice and we have to except that. As for the Leeds example....well what about Derby,Wolves,Portsmouth ect ect? By the way i was made redundant in the 80s from bouton and pauls and invested my money  into a company that now has outlets in 3 European countries. I would rather die knowing i had tried insted of plodding along wondering what could of been!

[A Load of Squit 6,260]

[quote user="Millo"][quote user="A Load of Squit"][quote user="Arthur Whittle"]

[quote user="Mr_Chimp"]Hang on - we''re now bemoaning the fact that the manager hasn''t spent big to get the players he thinks will make our team better?
[/quote]

Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood, why didnt we better the wolves bid,Grant came out and said he wanted Sharp, why didnt we better the Sheff utd bid? Grant came out and said he wanted Varney, why didnt we better Charltons bid? Grant ends up with Cureton, why didnt he come out as soon as Cureton made it cear he wanted out of Colchester and sign him straight away? answer me that? in my opinion poor PG has ended up with his last Choice because the Board bottled it.

[/quote]

Fortunatley for us all your opinion does not count as it based on nothing more than supposition.

 

[/quote]

Ever considered that people think your opinion doesnt count?

For someone whos opinion doesnt count he doesnt half get a lot of replys.

[/quote]

Read the second part of the sentence.

 

 

[Mello Yello 2,588]

[quote user="Old Shuck"]

"Grant has came out and said he wanted Eastwood, why didn''t he better the Wolves bid?"

Because Eastwood wasn''t interested in joining Norwich- or Charlton come to that- he wanted to join Wolves, end of story. What is the club meant to do, put him in a sack and make him sign a contract at gunpoint? Do we really want a player playing for us who clearly would prefer to be at another club? Do we even want to be chasing a player who has made it clear which club he wants to join? You talk about our ambition, what about Eastwoods? If he wanted Prem football, shouldn''t he have joined Charlton who have a far better chance than either us -or Wolves- of promotion next season. What is he motivated by, therefore-football or money? Do we want a player who is in it more for the money than to achieve anything in the game?

Same with Sharp. He wanted to join Sheffield United. End of, as above. 

Varney. Charlton offered him silly money, its supposedly over £20k a week-want us to pay an ex-Crewe player that much money, want us to break the existing pay structure and have the rest of the squad demanding parity? Dressing room unrest?

Cureton WANTED to join Norwich. And, argue away, he was the highest goalscorer in the CCC last season, Eastwood was no where. Cureton was half the cost of Eastwood, transfer fee and I would imagine, wages. I know who I''d prefer.

Where has the money gone? Well, I hope some of it has gone on paying off some debts. Or should the club run at a loss, year after year after year? Is that acceptable to you? It isn''t to the people that the club owe money to, what are they going to do in 3,4,5 years time if the debts keep on going up, laugh and say "never mind, you keep the money and spend it on lots of players" or are they going to take action to get their money back, look what happened at Leeds, they are where they are because their Chairman was a supporter and was in a position to do what all of you think we should do, spend money we haven''t got and will never have.

The way some people go on, you''d think that is what we should be doing. Bet you aren''t so cavalier with your own incomes and expenses-yet its OK to sit there and make unrealistic demands of someone elses? OK, I can play that game, lets do it with all of yours-got a house worth £200''000? Hell, what sort of ambition is that, go on, get out there and buy one for £400''000, you earnt £40''000 last year alone, wheres the money gone? Only driving a Ford Focus? God help us all, you''re happy with that and so-and-so up the road is swanning about in a Lexus, why didn''t you make a bid for that Lexus? Lack of motoring ambition, get out there and buy one. Only going to France on holiday? See you''re accepting the cheap option again, you and the wife have bottled it, why can''t you go for three weeks in New Zealand like some others are? Can''t afford it-thats got nothingn to do with it, go anyway, wheres the ambition and where has all the money gone...?

 

[/quote]

Your assumption and opinion on where you think the money has gone - is purely speculative...........Did Earnshaw or the majority of players, really want to come to Norwich? Did Earnie actually want a Ferrari instead of a Hummer?......Are we actually going from 8+ million of debt to 20+ million quid in debt - because of the ITV digital collapse, or due to mis-management and poor business acumen? Is the money from ''off the field'' projects actually making a difference to our current debt?..........Are you an individual who uses the excuse ''in hindsight'' instead of ''due to lack of foresight''.......Is Neil Doncaster the right man for the job? (he''s had a few years at it!).......We''ve also had the same board (with a couple of new additions) for the last 10 years........do they really have the supporters'' best interests at heart?.........Have you been into ''Scores'' recently? Just have a look at the decor, the carpets - and state of the toilets etc......They certainly wouldn''t need a facelift in Delia''s or any of the corporate/hospitality areas. But, that''s just my opinion from what I''ve seen with my own mince pies.

You, like me, are just a poster who has an opinion......

[Huddy 0]

I was saying that we had around 3 Million before the Earnshaw sale so in theory we should have around £6 Million to spend. We spent around 750k on Cureton, 1 Million on marshall  meaning that there should be around £4 Million left. Well, 600k looks likely to go on strihavka, leaving ober £3 Million still. I would hope that a big money centre half may still sign, plus a creative midfielder to replace safri and maybe another striker! (Sign up Steven Naismith!). Knowing Norwich, though this transfer kttty includes signing on fees and wages, so Doomcaster will tell us we''ve spent more than we''ve realised.

Anyway though, i''m still positive, Peter the Pointer''s poiting us in the right direction.

[Huddy 0]

Can i just add

No-one ever said we had, £8 Million, thats ridiculous.

The Turner''s have put in a sum, which seems to be arounf £3 Million for transfers, add this to the Earny Sale, you get £6 Million.

[Branston Pickle 4,169]

The simple truth is that all the figures bandied around were never anything more than guesses by posters who were mostly poo-pooed at the time, so this whole thread starts with guesswork and conjecture and gets worse; the simple fact (and this is a fact, not one of Smudger''s opinions dressed up as one!) is that none of us knows what the transfer budget is/was.  Since we have not actually finished with the transfer window yet - it has nigh-on 2 months to run (to the end of August) - perhaps people should reserve judgement on who we have/haven''t signed and what we have/haven''t spent until then? 

My only real thought on the subject is that I couldn''t really give a toss what budget we have, and how much we do or don''t spend, as long as we get decent people in who can do the job asked of them (something that has been missing rather a lot in the last 2 seasons).   So far, the signs have been promising but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. 

[ZLF 342]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]

You, like me, are just a poster who has an opinion......[/quote]

 

Well said Mello - there is no first amongst equals in posterland.