Why wasn't Wagner backed in the January window?

[Monty13 2,235]

13 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Bloody hell. We're in the Championship, we have no spare cash, our investors don't feel confident enough yet to bankroll the Head coach.

And most importantly we have lots of youngsters busting a gut to play (Welch, Aboh, etc.) that other Championship managers would gladly put on the pitch, but Wagner doesn't. As he also doesn't play SvH (I'll leave others to debate this). These are the choices Wagner makes, and it is super, super important that he realises making statements like last night's does him no favours when he doesn't back it up by at least giving those youngsters a run out.

Last night was crying out for something to get Wednesday thinking about us in their half, rather than just focusing on bludgeoning us to death, but Wagner for whatever reason never changed it up - **** poor management yet again from Mr Cautious. 

So to come out with that criticism of the "backing he got in the transfer window" after he seemingly got his way in the summer window with all those "super experienced" 30 years olds is a bit rich. How many more 30 year old journeymen does he want? 

Trust in youth David. At least occasionally, if not all the time. 

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying here but I’m not sure it’s clear how much of the summer window was what Wagner wanted. The fact he barely plays Batth or Forshaw before he left makes me doubt how much influence he had over incomings.

I think it’s clear there is a level of divide between Manager and new SD, how deep who knows. But Wagner was vocal all through January about bodies, he’s stated that again here.

Knapper was clear we need to refocus on youth yet these players are not getting a look in.

Knappers one transfer is being effectively ignored (although I’m also in the camp of feeling it was a foolish move in hindsight).

I think it’s pretty clear top level management at Carrow Road no longer expected us to be genuine top 6 challengers and that January plans were based on that. 

I know money is tight but you don’t loan out Idah and not look to bring a single loan in while reducing the squad size if you’re fully focused on promotion, I just don’t believe that personally.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

i think the Idah loan must be saving or  making us money ,

No way is SVH on the same wages as Idah so you would of thought if it was not about money ( wages wise ) we still had some wages to get someone better if it was just like for like 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

It's amazing how many people forget ( or choose to ignore ) the fact that it has been said many times that Adam was the one pushing to leave. He wanted away. It's not simply BK or DW making that decision. 

[Monty13 2,235]

2 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

It's amazing how many people forget ( or choose to ignore ) the fact that it has been said many times that Adam was the one pushing to leave. He wanted away. It's not simply BK or DW making that decision. 

Not ignoring it personally but the guy signed a 5 year contract last year.

I get he’s been disappointed with his opportunities this year, but it’s also not as simple as a player saying they want a loan and everyone having to bend over backwards to immediately accommodate them IMO, especially mid season.

Idah should have had a loan a long time ago, he could have potentially had the desire for that opportunity managed to ensure a promise of finding him one this summer.

I just think that’s the difference between a club still expecting promotion and one not, I’m just not sure a club pushing to be promoted doesn’t manage that situation to keep him.

[hogesar 9,705]

18 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying here but I’m not sure it’s clear how much of the summer window was what Wagner wanted. The fact he barely plays Batth or Forshaw before he left makes me doubt how much influence he had over incomings.

I think it’s clear there is a level of divide between Manager and new SD, how deep who knows. But Wagner was vocal all through January about bodies, he’s stated that again here.

Knapper was clear we need to refocus on youth yet these players are not getting a look in.

Knappers one transfer is being effectively ignored (although I’m also in the camp of feeling it was a foolish move in hindsight).

I think it’s pretty clear top level management at Carrow Road no longer expected us to be genuine top 6 challengers and that January plans were based on that. 

I know money is tight but you don’t loan out Idah and not look to bring a single loan in while reducing the squad size if you’re fully focused on promotion, I just don’t believe that personally.

I mean @shefcanary makes some good points but ultimately it's all irrelevant regarding Wagner and playing / not playing youngsters.

Ultimately Wagner wanted to keep the squad the size it was, not reduce it. He didn't want to lose Idah but we all understand Idah wanted to go - what Wagner clearly didn't want is a completely different (unsuited) style of striker who was drastically un-fit and had never played football in England as a replacement. Especially when we know Wagner's counter-pressing has required high-intensity pre-seasons which meant it took Sainz a while post-injury to get into the side.

Ultimately Wagner's being asked to do a job with one hand tied behind his back by Knapper. Now, Knapper's long term vision could prove to be fruitful, and we win the title next season with SvH scoring 25 goals (ok, even with drugs that last bit is inconceivable). 

The problem I have is it feels like we're taking for granted the opportunity we have this season with the players we've got. Weakening the squad in January seemed a massive mistake on that basis and our current injuries suggests it is having an effect on us. 

[Nuff Said 5,147]

It seems fairly clear to me that:

1. The board don’t see a future for Wagner beyond this season. (They may have said “get us promoted and we’ll keep you on.” If we did go up, we will see, if not I doubt we’ll ever know).
2. Wagner knows this, so his only focus is promotion this season. Webber probably thought the same, wanting to go out on a high note. So they bought experienced players with no resale value as a “sh1t or bust” move. The development of young players would mean giving them game time to learn for the future, so Wagner isn’t interested. The only way he would play Aboh etc is if they could deliver immediately and we have to assume they don’t look that good in training.

[repman 635]

20 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

It seems fairly clear to me that:

1. The board don’t see a future for Wagner beyond this season. (They may have said “get us promoted and we’ll keep you on.” If we did go up, we will see, if not I doubt we’ll ever know).
2. Wagner knows this, so his only focus is promotion this season. Webber probably thought the same, wanting to go out on a high note. So they bought experienced players with no resale value as a “sh1t or bust” move. The development of young players would mean giving them game time to learn for the future, so Wagner isn’t interested. The only way he would play Aboh etc is if they could deliver immediately and we have to assume they don’t look that good in training.

I think this is true but at this point I think Wagner is starting to do harm by not making some subs at the minimum. The players consistently look knackered out there towards the end of games, we drop deeper and deeper and hope we hang on. It worked against Ipswich but most of the other times it has not (certainly away from home). By running the players into the ground it's only making it worse. 

It may be the case that Wagner doesn't like the look of these lads in training, but he's made it pretty clear his hands are tied in regards to squad makeup. At this point he's basically resembling a fussy eater kid who won't eat their greens, insisting that he doesn't like them despite never trying them. This of course is coming from a guy who played Nunez up front for the first few months of the season and kept Sainz on the bench for 2 months before giving him a start, it's not unfathomable to me that he's prone to getting these decisions wrong once in a while.

[Monty13 2,235]

20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I mean @shefcanary makes some good points but ultimately it's all irrelevant regarding Wagner and playing / not playing youngsters.

Ultimately Wagner wanted to keep the squad the size it was, not reduce it. He didn't want to lose Idah but we all understand Idah wanted to go - what Wagner clearly didn't want is a completely different (unsuited) style of striker who was drastically un-fit and had never played football in England as a replacement. Especially when we know Wagner's counter-pressing has required high-intensity pre-seasons which meant it took Sainz a while post-injury to get into the side.

Ultimately Wagner's being asked to do a job with one hand tied behind his back by Knapper. Now, Knapper's long term vision could prove to be fruitful, and we win the title next season with SvH scoring 25 goals (ok, even with drugs that last bit is inconceivable). 

The problem I have is it feels like we're taking for granted the opportunity we have this season with the players we've got. Weakening the squad in January seemed a massive mistake on that basis and our current injuries suggests it is having an effect on us. 

Get what you’re saying but I kind of think there’s a philosophical conflict internally.

Knapper has clearly been brought in to focus on youth/prospects, continue/restart the production line of talent out of Colney and balance success on the pitch with player asset development off it. At least that’s the way it seems to me from what he has said and his background.

Wagners remit was to get promotion. Wagner does not seem to be a Manager who focuses on youth to any degree, at least from what we’ve seen. Gibbs has been used sparingly compared to last season, Fisher trusted little to replace Stacy, Warner out on loan after some decent displays. Very little minutes given to youth players on the bench.

He said in this interview “they are talented, they are young, they need their time so a lot of players need to play a lot of minutes”.

More I think on it, Wagner may get us up and if he does IMO he deserves his chance but I’m just not sure how you reconcile what appears to be an impasse in forward direction of the club and ultimately Knapper owns that.

[yellowrider120 766]

40 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Not ignoring it personally but the guy signed a 5 year contract last year.

I get he’s been disappointed with his opportunities this year, but it’s also not as simple as a player saying they want a loan and everyone having to bend over backwards to immediately accommodate them IMO, especially mid season.

Idah should have had a loan a long time ago, he could have potentially had the desire for that opportunity managed to ensure a promise of finding him one this summer.

I just think that’s the difference between a club still expecting promotion and one not, I’m just not sure a club pushing to be promoted doesn’t manage that situation to keep him.

Correct of course and a grumbling Idah should have been reminded of that fact quite forcefully in January. The olive branch can / should have been dangled that .................'stay until the end of the season and we'll let you go in the summer'. Why on earth we didn't do that I've no idea. Stupidity beyond belief.

[Google Bot 3,296]

29 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

The only way he would play Aboh etc is if they could deliver immediately and we have to assume they don’t look that good in training.

That thinking should apply whether he was here this season or not, surely?  You don't **** about experimenting when you're sat in the top six, unless you have confidence in those players to affect the game.

He wasn't backed as we are skint, and it appeared that a number of moves we were attempting all broke down based on reports.  I'm quite sure that SvH isn't a Knapper type player and he's certainly not a DW player as he has no mobility.  I don't see any longterm thinking with him, that suggests it goes against DW being more short term either.  The club operate as a team, not individuals.

SvH seemed to be the only move available that we could get over the line, matched with his desire to play over here, so we took the option.

Last night happened as we didn't take our chances, I don't know if Aboh, SvH or Idah would be considered any better than Barnes, Sara, Sainz and Nunez who all missed great opportunities earlier.  Our away form seems more of a mentality issue than a player issue, our backline goes to **** and we give away possession once conceding - that's what needs addressing.

[Pyro Pete 1,906]

We haven't got any money.

Zoe made this quite clear in the public fans' forum last summer.

End of debate.

[Nuff Said 5,147]

2 hours ago, Pyro Pete said:

We haven't got any money.

Zoe made this quite clear in the public fans' forum last summer.

End of debate.

Uh oh.
 

You said Zoe and money in the same post. I can hear Essex firing up his keyboard now.

[Gordon Bennett 787]

7 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

It’s hard to judge someone on barely 20 mins of first team football. 

Buy the fact he's not even being brought on as a sub speaks volumes.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

8 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Wagner has said that it was Idah who was desperate for the move, you seem to be missing the third party here.

Are 

 

8 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Wagner has said that it was Idah who was desperate for the move, you seem to be missing the third party 

What Idah wanted was irrelevant in that he was under contract. He was really effective off the bench and we have removed that threat. Was a really poor poor decision.

Feel sorry for Wagmer.

[Google Bot 3,296]

13 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

What Idah wanted was irrelevant in that he was under contract.

In terms of obligation maybe, but Wagner said himself that he only wants players committed to the cause, and Idah made it clear he wanted out.  Perhaps the way Idah, or his agent, approached the subject with Wagner broke his trust?

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

31 minutes ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Buy the fact he's not even being brought on as a sub speaks volumes.

Maybe it says more about the coach than the player? Who knows…

[Channon’s Windmill 327]

8 hours ago, Indy said:

Unfortunately we’re a club in full transition, from premier money and squad to championship, we have massive debt held by MA who with his set up and a year later still waiting to be formally granted joint ownership of this club! Until that happens I’m not sure MA will fund much more.

So going into this summer in this division without promotion will have a massive impact. I think Wagner without promotion will be gone, I think we’ll have a new coach and coaching team focused on developing our youth culture, there will be a lot of higher earners out the door and it might take a good few years to readjust at board room and squad to anywhere near promotion again.

Just the way of football, we’ve had the high we’re adjusting to our low now, so I think promotion is crucial for our squad development and finances.

I 100% agree with this? But it sad when the high is bottom of the the table at our last two attempts. I know there are many clubs much worse of than ours but our ability to compete is now pretty clear.

[Robert N. LiM 4,426]

6 hours ago, Monty13 said:

He said in this interview “they are talented, they are young, they need their time so a lot of players need to play a lot of minutes”.

I'm sure this is just me being dense, but who is 'he' here and in what interview?

[Capt. Pants 4,261]

Well if we fail to get promoted it will be an interesting summer if we're going to part company with everyone who wants to leave.

Idah should have been told you under contract sunshine and paid handsomely for it, now do your fcukin job you're not moving mid-season.

 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

8 hours ago, hogesar said:

I mean @shefcanary makes some good points but ultimately it's all irrelevant regarding Wagner and playing / not playing youngsters.

Ultimately Wagner wanted to keep the squad the size it was, not reduce it. He didn't want to lose Idah but we all understand Idah wanted to go - what Wagner clearly didn't want is a completely different (unsuited) style of striker who was drastically un-fit and had never played football in England as a replacement. Especially when we know Wagner's counter-pressing has required high-intensity pre-seasons which meant it took Sainz a while post-injury to get into the side.

Ultimately Wagner's being asked to do a job with one hand tied behind his back by Knapper. Now, Knapper's long term vision could prove to be fruitful, and we win the title next season with SvH scoring 25 goals (ok, even with drugs that last bit is inconceivable). 

The problem I have is it feels like we're taking for granted the opportunity we have this season with the players we've got. Weakening the squad in January seemed a massive mistake on that basis and our current injuries suggests it is having an effect on us. 

I normally agree with most of what you have to say, but I think you are taking for granted the enormity of the turnaround since January. Back then, cutting costs on wages for the benefit of a rebuild in the Summer for next season strikes me as sound planning when even making play offs looked like a long shot in January when relegation was starting to look more likely than promotion.

on top of that, even if we’d had substantial incomings in January, and let’s remember you usually pay through the nose for players in January and young loanees aren’t the best thing to hit the ground running in the serious fight, it’s questionable whether there was really much that could have been done to radically alter the odds in our favour to deliver a much better position than where we are now. And whatever we’d done in January, automatic promotion would have been an implausible outcome; I think there would have had to be a more realistic chance of that as an outcome to justify splashing out in January. 
 

 

Edited April 10 by littleyellowbirdie

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I'm sure this is just me being dense, but who is 'he' here and in what interview?

Wagner in the interview post Sheffield Weds that Cambridge linked.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

4 hours ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Buy the fact he's not even being brought on as a sub speaks volumes.

To be fair, Harry Kane barely got a kick here after being written off after a couple of appearances.