McLean having a go at the fans

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,315]

1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Aw diddums - if you can't handle our player of the season giving a little bit back to a bunch of whinging morons perhaps you'd better go and watch another sport. Croquet perhaps?

Lol.. where did I say I can’t handle it? Doesn’t bother me in the slightest mate! 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,315]

1 hour ago, Nik Vawn said:

Why would we want to be like Leeds, we are Norwich and proud of it!

Please point out the bit where I said I want our club to be like Leeds?

[Robert N. LiM 4,656]

8 hours ago, hogesar said:

I'm really, really rooting for him to get us into the play-offs. I like him more each game.

Haha, yeah, that's awesome. Strong energy of a guy who knows he's not here beyond the end of the season and really couldn't give a f*** any more. Hard not to like him.

Edited March 3 by Robert N. LiM

[RobJames 905]

15 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

If you really think booing is exclusive to Norwich you are incredibly naive. In fact, it’s one of the most placid, non-demonstrative, places the players can play their football. If Kenny McLean can’t handle a few grumpy Norwich fans he’s in the wrong game. The fact he reacts so visibly to it, is evidence to how ‘safe’ he feels to do so, and supports my point above. He just wouldn’t do it at a Leeds or Sunderland, for example. In the same way Webber wouldn’t have strutted about throwing arrogant, egotistical, hand grenades around whenever he felt like it.

What a ridiculous post. Firstly the post you are replying to never said that of even suggested, It is just you making up stuff. Secondly players have always shown reaction to the crowd, probably not as stupid as that pretentious twt Cantona, but certainly with hand gestures, hands to the ears etc

And I doubt McLean had time to work out whether he was indispensable so he could react as he did. It was a spontaneous reaction no doubt borne of the frustration City players must have hearing that kind of cretinous whining. Not the best squad we have assembled, yet they have fought and battled to haul us up from 17th to 7th, with every possibility that we will make the play offs, and that is deserving of booing ? The same ignorant to ssers who booed Bennett then carried that through to Idah.

To try to excuse those rsoles by attacking McLean shows where you are coming from - so I expect you and your sort to at least boycott any games we play if we reach the playoffs

[Spillay 180]

On 02/03/2024 at 17:04, Ian said:

Exactly that. Fans are becoming really thin-skinned.

The sense of entitlement from some really is beyond the joke

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,315]

7 hours ago, RobJames said:

What a ridiculous post. Firstly the post you are replying to never said that of even suggested, It is just you making up stuff. Secondly players have always shown reaction to the crowd, probably not as stupid as that pretentious twt Cantona, but certainly with hand gestures, hands to the ears etc

And I doubt McLean had time to work out whether he was indispensable so he could react as he did. It was a spontaneous reaction no doubt borne of the frustration City players must have hearing that kind of cretinous whining. Not the best squad we have assembled, yet they have fought and battled to haul us up from 17th to 7th, with every possibility that we will make the play offs, and that is deserving of booing ? The same ignorant to ssers who booed Bennett then carried that through to Idah.

To try to excuse those rsoles by attacking McLean shows where you are coming from - so I expect you and your sort to at least boycott any games we play if we reach the playoffs

It isn’t ridiculous, and entirely relevant. Thanks for the air time.

I’m not excusing anyone for ‘attacking’ (way to over dramatise it) McLean. Please point that bit out. You suggesting I’m “making stuff up” is, well, you making stuff up! Indispensable? Where have you plucked that from? You’ve got your self all worked up, and lost your way here, RJ. But for one of the more eccentric and baffling posters, that’s not surprising. 

 

Edited March 4 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[JonnyJonnyRowe 552]

On 02/03/2024 at 18:32, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Kenny made 75 passes today with 83% passing accuracy. 

I think passing accuracy is a flawed statistics as it rewards the unambitious and punishes those who try the audacious, so best used alongside the 'key passes' per game metric.

Swansea last season had 7 of the top 10 players for passing accuracy, because they were playing boring tika-taka stuff with a million 2 yard passes that went out of fashion a decade ago, and they had nobody in the top 20 for number of assists. They finished 10th.

Interestingly though, out of our main three centre midfielders:

• Nunez 86.6% (0.7 key passes)
• Sara 85.6% (2.6 key passes)
• McLean 84.2% (0.7 key passes)

He does appear to be our poorest or least effective passer, and that 83% supports the idea that his passing was less accurate than usual.. Suppose you do have to consider that he has played a proportion of his football at centre back though.

And our most accurate passer is.... Borja Sainz! 

[shefcanary 2,503]

I posted this the other day in the thread where an article was shared that quoted memories from good ole bors from 100 years ago - as I said, nothing changes. 

Stop with winding each other up. This is what people pays their money for, it has ever been thus, and ever will be. 

[Serinus canaria 15]

It's been a long time since we had a 12th man crowd at Carrow Road. You can debate the reasons for that (e.g. getting battered in the PL, poor PR from the club etc.) but I think some of us underestimated the difference it would make. We have also been somewhat spoilt since the Lambert era. There were some dismal days in the late 90s and 00s where there was little to get excited about and a lot of random players coming through the team. There was perhaps a frustration amongst some that we never 'upgraded' from Kenny in either PL seasons but I certainly think if we don't go up this year we could look back in a couple of seasons and wish we had a Kenny in there again.

[dylanisabaddog 5,060]

[lake district canary 4,562]

On 02/03/2024 at 23:25, hogesar said:

2) Gibson was brilliant with his distribution out from the back and drove with the ball as his confidence grew too.

So you agree with me then that when we are slow and tentative at the back we look poor and when we are on it, in other words more confident, we look a lot better.

To my mind we should look confident from the first minute, especially at home, not spend a first half looking like we are scared of the ball in defence - and the conditions were the same for both teams, yet Sunderland looked way more comfortable passing the ball around. 

[hogesar 9,813]

Just now, lake district canary said:

So you agree with me then that when we are slow and tentative at the back we look poor and when we are on it, in other words more confident, we look a lot better.

To my mind we should look confident from the first minute, especially at home, not spend a first half looking like we are scared of the ball in defence - and the conditions were the same for both teams, yet Sunderland looked way more comfortable passing the ball around. 

No, I don't agree.

I certainly don't agree Sunderland looked way more comfortable. I'm convinced you didn't watch the match. That has to be the only explanation, because for all our disagreements, you're certainly not thick.

We had exactly the same passing accuracy as Sunderland but the difference is we made more of them. We also intercepted their passes more than they intercepted ours. We made more first time passes than them with a higher accuracy too. They were forced into playing more long balls than us too, and made more clearances than us.

We aren't being tentative, we are doing what each and every passing build-up team does. Slow things down for periods of the game whilst you shift the opposition or bait them into a press. Sometimes slowing it down is what frustrates the opposition into doing that, and is exactly what happened, freeing Kenny to dribble into space and open up the ball to our full-backs who are in final third positions.

 

[......and Smith must score. 1,368]

7 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

It isn’t ridiculous, and entirely relevant. Thanks for the air time.

I’m not excusing anyone for ‘attacking’ (way to over dramatise it) McLean. Please point that bit out. You suggesting I’m “making stuff up” is, well, you making stuff up! Indispensable? Where have you plucked that from? You’ve got your self all worked up, and lost your way here, RJ. But for one of the more eccentric and baffling posters, that’s not surprising. 

 

CCC, don’t forget that Rob James has been on here with previous incarnations starting off with a City 1st followed by City 2nd then Bill.

It’s pretty pointless engaging as he’s one weird poster…..

[yellowrider120 797]

14 hours ago, RobJames said:

What a ridiculous post. Firstly the post you are replying to never said that of even suggested, It is just you making up stuff. Secondly players have always shown reaction to the crowd, probably not as stupid as that pretentious twt Cantona, but certainly with hand gestures, hands to the ears etc

And I doubt McLean had time to work out whether he was indispensable so he could react as he did. It was a spontaneous reaction no doubt borne of the frustration City players must have hearing that kind of cretinous whining. Not the best squad we have assembled, yet they have fought and battled to haul us up from 17th to 7th, with every possibility that we will make the play offs, and that is deserving of booing ? The same ignorant to ssers who booed Bennett then carried that through to Idah.

To try to excuse those rsoles by attacking McLean shows where you are coming from - so I expect you and your sort to at least boycott any games we play if we reach the playoffs

Who is this 'Bennett' player to whom you refer? Can't see anyone of that name in our first team squad.

[yellowrider120 797]

1 minute ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

CCC, don’t forget that Rob James has been on here with previous incarnations starting off with a City 1st followed by City 2nd then Bill.

It’s pretty pointless engaging as he’s one weird poster…..

He certainly is although one trait remains consistent. I assume if that club get promoted he will take the honourable course of action?   

[lake district canary 4,562]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

No, I don't agree.

I certainly don't agree Sunderland looked way more comfortable. I'm convinced you didn't watch the match. That has to be the only explanation, because for all our disagreements, you're certainly not thick.

We had exactly the same passing accuracy as Sunderland but the difference is we made more of them. We also intercepted their passes more than they intercepted ours. We made more first time passes than them with a higher accuracy too. They were forced into playing more long balls than us too, and made more clearances than us.

We aren't being tentative, we are doing what each and every passing build-up team does. Slow things down for periods of the game whilst you shift the opposition or bait them into a press. Sometimes slowing it down is what frustrates the opposition into doing that, and is exactly what happened, freeing Kenny to dribble into space and open up the ball to our full-backs who are in final third positions.

 

I watched all the first half and was so fed up with the slowness of Gibson and Hanley and the paucity of entertainment, I went outside, only dipping in to the second half now and then. I've accepted that we improved in the second half from all the reports, but that first half was not even walking pace at times, almost standstill football. Awful to watch. If I'd been there I would have stayed of course and pleased to win in the end, but even as a mild mannered generally positive supporter, I would have been very unhappy at that first half drudgery with a big part of that due to Hanley and Gibson being so painfully slow on the ball. 

No doubt they were under instructions to play ultra safe and let McLean/Sara (mainly Mclean) do the "creative" work, ie hopeful punts up the pitch, but it was very poor football.

Three points is all that matters, but if that first half home performance is the standard - and there have been quite a few like that this season - then I can't see us progressing much more this season. 

And that's from someone who is generally positive about our football. 

[TIL 1010 4,826]

1 hour ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

CCC, don’t forget that Rob James has been on here with previous incarnations starting off with a City 1st followed by City 2nd then Bill.

It’s pretty pointless engaging as he’s one weird poster…..

A banned one at that.

[Robert N. LiM 4,656]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

We aren't being tentative, we are doing what each and every passing build-up team does. Slow things down for periods of the game whilst you shift the opposition or bait them into a press. Sometimes slowing it down is what frustrates the opposition into doing that, and is exactly what happened, freeing Kenny to dribble into space and open up the ball to our full-backs who are in final third positions.

It's fair to say, isn't it, that Hanley and especially Gibson were much more proactive in terms of carrying the ball forward and playing forward passes in the second half, when it had become clear that Sunlan were not especially baited by the slow passing between them. That was certainly my eye-test view of it.

Suggested to me that Wagner had encouraged this at HT, though why two experienced pros (3 if you count McLean) couldn't work this out for themselves, I'm not sure, nor why we don't have a plan B ready to go if the attempts by Gunn and the CBs to draw the press don't work.

There are obviously idiots who are just going to shout 'lump it forward' all the time, but that doesn't mean that all criticism of our attempts to play out from the back are invalid.

[hogesar 9,813]

10 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

It's fair to say, isn't it, that Hanley and especially Gibson were much more proactive in terms of carrying the ball forward and playing forward passes in the second half, when it had become clear that Sunlan were not especially baited by the slow passing between them. That was certainly my eye-test view of it.

Suggested to me that Wagner had encouraged this at HT, though why two experienced pros (3 if you count McLean) couldn't work this out for themselves, I'm not sure, nor why we don't have a plan B ready to go if the attempts by Gunn and the CBs to draw the press don't work.

There are obviously idiots who are just going to shout 'lump it forward' all the time, but that doesn't mean that all criticism of our attempts to play out from the back are invalid.

Gibson was decent all game. Hanley isn't a ball-playing CB by any stretch of the imagination so it's a reality he always struggles a bit in this regard, but certainly not to such a dire level as is being suggested.

Ultimately it's not a CB issue though. Both a positive and a negative of Wagners system is the overloading in the final third using the fullbacks so high. The problem is there are therefore often times where Hanley and Gibson don't have the standard CB out-ball to the fullback out wide. 

The other issue and something fans don't seem to want to acknowledge is there is another team playing. Sunderland defended deep but well. They kept shape pretty well too.

The Mclean fan interaction was a really good example.

There was a bit of space for Stacey who Mclean didn't play it to. I can't remember who said it but the point was incredibly pertinent - sometimes when a pass is so obviously on it's because the opposition want you to make that pass. Generally if us in the stands can see such a blatant obvious ball it's not that our players can't but that they understand the repercussions. Sunderland left Stacey in a bit of space on regular occasions but it was always when the only ball on was a longer switch to him, generally. It was wet too, and Stacey has a comparatively big first touch. There were two Sunderland players clearly instructed to trigger a press when it came out to Stacey - it was a way of trying to combat our "unique" style that their caretaker boss spoke about after the game as being difficult to nullify.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,656]

Thanks for the reply, Hoggy.

29 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Gibson was decent all game. Hanley isn't a ball-playing CB by any stretch of the imagination so it's a reality he always struggles a bit in this regard, but certainly not to such a dire level as is being suggested.

Sure, but to be honest that wasn't really the point of my post, which was much more about tactics than whether a player had a good bad game. I'm interested to know whether you felt there was a change of tactics in the second half - certainly seemed so from my stream.

 

31 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Ultimately it's not a CB issue though. Both a positive and a negative of Wagners system is the overloading in the final third using the fullbacks so high. The problem is there are therefore often times where Hanley and Gibson don't have the standard CB out-ball to the fullback out wide. 

Yeah, so this is the bit I'm most interested in, especially when you put it with this:

31 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The other issue and something fans don't seem to want to acknowledge is there is another team playing. Sunderland defended deep but well. They kept shape pretty well too.

So when there's an opposition like Sunderland who aren't especially baited by us biding our time at the back, surely we need to be a bit more flexible? I think @Parma Ham's gone mouldy suggested that Wagner's system is an attempt to create a weapon out of nothing, and he's basically calculated that its advantages outweigh its disadvantages, so I suppose I'm wondering whether it's possible to be slightly less wedded to that system - or at the very least to acknowledge that we might need to tweak it from opposition to opposition, and even within games. I think we did that on Saturday, and looked more like creating something in the second half as a result, so I'd be interested to know if you agree with that.

 

36 minutes ago, hogesar said:

There was a bit of space for Stacey who Mclean didn't play it to. I can't remember who said it but the point was incredibly pertinent - sometimes when a pass is so obviously on it's because the opposition want you to make that pass.

This is a really excellent point. (It was very unclear on the TV why McLean was gesticulating as he was. I assumed he was complaining at a player who wasn't where he wanted him.)

[shefcanary 2,503]

8 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

So when there's an opposition like Sunderland who aren't especially baited by us biding our time at the back, surely we need to be a bit more flexible? I think @Parma Ham's gone mouldy suggested that Wagner's system is an attempt to create a weapon out of nothing, and he's basically calculated that its advantages outweigh its disadvantages, so I suppose I'm wondering whether it's possible to be slightly less wedded to that system - or at the very least to acknowledge that we might need to tweak it from opposition to opposition, and even within games. I think we did that on Saturday, and looked more like creating something in the second half as a result, so I'd be interested to know if you agree with that.

That goes without saying really. But even more importantly, which is the source of my biggest frustration with Wagner especially during the period without Sarge, there is our own team and the limitations they all have. A coach has to adapt tactics to that. And very clearly for much of that run, Wagner stubbornly stuck to his Plan A and it did not work, we the fans could see that it wasn't working and the opposition also did and made hay during the game.

I seriously contend that Knapper has had words with him about this, because there has been a definite change in what happens now, with a lot more variation as you clearly saw in the 2nd half of the game on Saturday. But why did it take until half time? The Pep's, Klopps, Arteta's don't wait for half time. Even lesser managers in League's 1 and 2 try and do something different when they see Plan A isn't working. Wagner prior to Knapper's arrival even made substitutions, always on the 60th minute, without changing tactics despite the game state. Thankfully we are seeing more variation now. But am I right about it being Knapper's influence or not? 🤔

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,184]

On 03/03/2024 at 13:12, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Lol.. where did I say I can’t handle it? Doesn’t bother me in the slightest mate! 

For someone who's "not bothered in the slightest" you're posting on this thread an awful lot.

If your post count on this thread is indicitive of what happens when you're "not bothered" I'd hate to see how much you'd post when you were. 🤣

[Robert N. LiM 4,656]

@shefcanary - yeah, I think that's more or less as I see it, but I was fascinated by Parma's post here, which (if I read it correctly) understood Wagner's system as a weapon in a weaponless world.

Presumably shifting from plan A would create new disadvantages as well as removing existing ones. I was baffled by Wagner's reluctance to change the plan in the absence of Sargent and Barnes, but presumably he must have at least considered it, and felt he had good reasons for sticking with it...

[Indy 3,343]

3 hours ago, yellowrider120 said:

Who is this 'Bennett' player to whom you refer? Can't see anyone of that name in our first team squad.

Gordon he’s a new signing, 35 year old on a free! You can clearly hear his name mentioned every game! “Gordon Bennet not him again”

[hogesar 9,813]

31 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

That goes without saying really. But even more importantly, which is the source of my biggest frustration with Wagner especially during the period without Sarge, there is our own team and the limitations they all have. A coach has to adapt tactics to that. And very clearly for much of that run, Wagner stubbornly stuck to his Plan A and it did not work, we the fans could see that it wasn't working and the opposition also did and made hay during the game.

I seriously contend that Knapper has had words with him about this, because there has been a definite change in what happens now, with a lot more variation as you clearly saw in the 2nd half of the game on Saturday. But why did it take until half time? The Pep's, Klopps, Arteta's don't wait for half time. Even lesser managers in League's 1 and 2 try and do something different when they see Plan A isn't working. Wagner prior to Knapper's arrival even made substitutions, always on the 60th minute, without changing tactics despite the game state. Thankfully we are seeing more variation now. But am I right about it being Knapper's influence or not? 🤔

 

No, I don't think someone who's been loans manager in his first SD role has done anything to change Wagners tactics. What has changed is he has first team players back.

That's why pre Knapper but we had everyone fit, we started the season just as well. 

As for waiting till half time that's incredibly common throughout all of football although subtle changes are made all the time.. 

All of Farke, Smith and Wagner have been accused of no plan B after a game where they've changed shape at least 3 times in said game, by our fans.

I would say just because a fan can't see a change doesn't mean one hasn't been made.

[hogesar 9,813]

50 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Thanks for the reply, Hoggy.

Sure, but to be honest that wasn't really the point of my post, which was much more about tactics than whether a player had a good bad game. I'm interested to know whether you felt there was a change of tactics in the second half - certainly seemed so from my stream.

 

Yeah, so this is the bit I'm most interested in, especially when you put it with this:

So when there's an opposition like Sunderland who aren't especially baited by us biding our time at the back, surely we need to be a bit more flexible? I think @Parma Ham's gone mouldy suggested that Wagner's system is an attempt to create a weapon out of nothing, and he's basically calculated that its advantages outweigh its disadvantages, so I suppose I'm wondering whether it's possible to be slightly less wedded to that system - or at the very least to acknowledge that we might need to tweak it from opposition to opposition, and even within games. I think we did that on Saturday, and looked more like creating something in the second half as a result, so I'd be interested to know if you agree with that.

 

This is a really excellent point. (It was very unclear on the TV why McLean was gesticulating as he was. I assumed he was complaining at a player who wasn't where he wanted him.)

I think you probably reflect nearly all of us as fans. If something doesn't seem to be working why don't we change it?

Ultimately you're completely correct that we could be more flexible and certainly when we had our injury problems we 100% should have been - its the biggest stain on Wagners tenure that we didn't, to be honest.

But equally footballers are generally simple beings that love simple processes. Sometimes the Plan A you all know might not be working but a plan B might be even worse because as a team you're not as good at it.

That was always Farkes sort of argument.

And to really exemplify the issue and portray how us fans are compared to coaches - whenever Man City aren't working there are calls for them to be more direct, stop passing so much etc. Of course, Pep ignores that.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,315]

3 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

For someone who's "not bothered in the slightest" you're posting on this thread an awful lot.

If your post count on this thread is indicitive of what happens when you're "not bothered" I'd hate to see how much you'd post when you were. 🤣

I have no issue with the fans booing. Nor do I have an issue with McLean reacting. I really don’t think anything I’ve posted in this thread contradicts that. I do enjoy debate, which more accurately reflects my post count. Ta 😘