McLean as CB

[canarybubbles 1,936]

This has worked well on the whole, so I don't really get why we abandon it. It seems to increase our creative options out from defence without notably weakening us as a defensive unit.

Having said that, this might be a moot point now if Nunez has a serious injury, since a large part of why it worked was how well Sara and Nunez play together as a pair.  

Edited February 25 by canarybubbles

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,295]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

This has worked well on the whole, so I don't really get why we abandon it. It seems to increase our creative options out from defence without notably weakening us as a defensive unit.

Having said that, this might be a moot point now if Nunez has a serious injury, since a large part of why it worked was how well Sara and Nunez play together as a pair.  

I agree it’s been on the whole a success. Although caveated, against lesser sides when we have plenty of the ball.

Agree it’s a moot point now. Especially with centre half’s back to fitness. But it shouldn’t be ignored as an option… Gibbs needs game time and next to Sara could prosper?

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

I totally agree, I was sceptical at first but for me he's our best CB right now, I'd like to see both Hanley and Gibson moved on in the summer and a quality CB brought in to play alongside McLean. 

[Matt Juler 155]

Playing out from the back works better with Kenny on the left side, he's much more progressive than any of the other options and quickly gets us up the pitch. He can see and execute long balls forward allowing us to counter.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

This has worked well on the whole, so I don't really get why we abandon it. It seems to increase our creative options out from defence without notably weakening us as a defensive unit.

Having said that, this might be a moot point now if Nunez has a serious injury, since a large part of why it worked was how well Sara and Nunez play together as a pair.  

Yesterday was a classic example of trying to show horn him into the team. Our best central midfield pairing is Nunez and Sara and yesterday we were far to deep as a team, he naturally wants to go deep to get the ball and that affects our shape.

As a CB we play much further forward and play through the lines far quicker.

He's either. CB or not in the starting 11 (for me) but I suspect with Nunez now injured he becomes Sara's partner. Which now exposes us in a different way.

[Well b back 3,263]

17 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Yesterday was a classic example of trying to show horn him into the team. Our best central midfield pairing is Nunez and Sara and yesterday we were far to deep as a team, he naturally wants to go deep to get the ball and that affects our shape.

As a CB we play much further forward and play through the lines far quicker.

He's either. CB or not in the starting 11 (for me) but I suspect with Nunez now injured he becomes Sara's partner. Which now exposes us in a different way.

Drop him or he gets injured Ala last season, we can kiss goodbye to the play offs. 
POTS by a country mile, but won’t win it as your post confirms

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,797]

48 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Yesterday was a classic example of trying to show horn him into the team. Our best central midfield pairing is Nunez and Sara and yesterday we were far to deep as a team, he naturally wants to go deep to get the ball and that affects our shape.

As a CB we play much further forward and play through the lines far quicker.

He's either. CB or not in the starting 11 (for me) but I suspect with Nunez now injured he becomes Sara's partner. Which now exposes us in a different way.

Indeed...he's neither one of our best 2 central midfielders nor is he one of our best 2 central defenders (yet people are pushing him for POTS?!) and on the occasions where we opt for Sargent/Barnes it is Nunez who is the fall guy ,which is just plain wrong.

He's done well at centre half when called upon but on the whole , not particularly in midfield this season bar the odd occasion. 

The first third of the season ,when we had the worst defence in the league ,shipping 2 goals a game, he was as culpable as any for a porous midfield. It was only when we took him out of there and moved him back in the second third of the season did our midfield/defence improve.

Duffy when fit will play, Wagner then has a straight choice between Gibson and McLean ..but it shouldnt be both if its at the expense of either Nunez in midfield or a second striker when its required, by playing all of Sara/Nunez/Mclean in midfield

 

Edited February 25 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, Well b back said:

Drop him or he gets injured Ala last season, we can kiss goodbye to the play offs. 
POTS by a country mile, but won’t win it as your post confirms

He probably will win it as he's one of those players that is busy and fans love that.

In the first 5 mins yesterday he gave the ball away 4 times and kicked it out of play with a simple pass. 

He drops so deep as a midfield player we lose shape and expose the gaps in the formation, he's doing a job that a centre half should do. 

He's a weird one we a midfield player, he's certainly not a defensively minded midfielder as he can't tackle so centre back is his best position but he needs to play there with a centre back who has pace as McLean has none and can tackle as McLean can't.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

4 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Indeed...he's neither one of our best 2 central midfielders nor is he one of our best 2 central defenders (yet people are pushing him for POTS?!) and on the occasions where we opt for Sargent/Barnes it is Nunez who is the fall guy ,which is just plain wrong.

He's done well at centre half when called upon but on the whole , not particularly in midfield this season bar the odd occasion. 

The first third of the season ,when we had the worst defence in the league ,shipping 2 goals a game, he was as culpable as any for a porous midfield. It was only when we took him out of there and moved him back in the second third of the season did our midfield/defence improve.

Duffy when fit will play, Wagner then has a straight choice between Gibson and McLean ..but it shouldnt be both if its at the expense of either Nunez in midfield or a second striker when its required

 

100% agree with all of this.

[lake district canary 4,542]

Putting him at centre back increases our midfield options - and aids midfield because of his passing ability.  Even with four defenders in the team we often see him or Nunez in the cb position with the central defenders on either side, when the team is in possession.

It's a tough ask, leaving an experienced defender like Gibson out, for a midfielder to take his place - but then it works, so that tough ask has to be made, even if it upsets the player, or affects his confidence or whatever.

When you have decent ball playing CBs, your team is much better - which is why we often played well with Zimmermann and Godfrey in the team, or with Klose there. Hanley and Gibson are not the best passers of the ball - Hanley has improved in that area and Gibson is capable, but needs to regain some confidence there - he used to look better on the ball.

Wagner identified Mclean as a good option - maybe the best option - at centre back, but hasn't followed it through. It makes us a better team. Now Nunez is injured, Wagner will probably keep him in midfield,  but Gibbs and Sorensen could do with more game time, so the option is still there.

Imo you make Mclean a CB general, running the game from that position. As he gets older, it's something that would suit him - and us.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Even with four defenders in the team we often see him or Nunez in the cb position with the central defenders on either side, when the team is in possession.

Which makes us very deep and exposes gaps for other teams to use.

With a CB who can pass there is no need for him or Nunez go drop so deep, there are times when he is deeper than the CB's which maybe isn't a problem if both full backs push on but there are times when they don't so we end up with 5 at the back for no reason.

[River End Rocker 46]

Hanley doesn't seem up to speed yet and Gibson is likely to leave in the summer. My preference would be Kenny and Duffy (when fit).  If Nunez is out for a while, I would drop Gibbs into midfield alongside Sara. The system works better with Kenny's distribution from the back and Barnes feeding Sergeant. 

[Mason 47 1,391]

McLean at CB is perhaps indicative of Wagnerism as a whole

In midfield he's generally used to drop into a situational back 3 in order to utilise his passing range from deep, but it tends to weaken us in the middle. When played at CB he naturally takes up this role without the compromise in midfield.

It's a feature of the team under Wagner that we utilise players to solve issues caused... by how we utilise players. This is where a lot of the frustration with the management comes from, despite decent results 

On the subject of CBs, I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere but I've felt Hanley has struggled since he's come back in (which is understandable). I think we've looked a great deal softer at the back since Duffy has been injured.

[DraytonBoy 160]

6 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

On the subject of CBs, I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere but I've felt Hanley has struggled since he's come back in (which is understandable). I think we've looked a great deal softer at the back since Duffy has been injured.

I think there are several players that are clearly not up to full fitness and being 'managed' (Hanley, Barnes and Sargent), Duffy will likely join the list when he returns. 

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

3 minutes ago, DraytonBoy said:

I think there are several players that are clearly not up to full fitness and being 'managed' (Hanley, Barnes and Sargent), Duffy will likely join the list when he returns. 

I thought fitness was a big thing for Wagner.

Are they overdoing it and that's the cause of injuries, you can do too much as much as you can do not enough.

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

2 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

 

Duffy when fit will play, Wagner then has a straight choice between Gibson and McLean ..but it shouldnt be both if its at the expense of either Nunez in midfield or a second striker when its required, by playing all of Sara/Nunez/Mclean in midfield

 

I'd totally forgotten all about Duffy 🤣

[norfolkngood 1,087]

Mclean should be our first choice CB 

if anyone watched Match of the day there and saw John Stones play for Man city it adds a extra body to the team ,

Mclean is a CB when defending and a Sitting Midfielder when attacking ,

Not saying Mclean is anything like john Stones or we are Man city 

But with a Midfielder playing at CB it adds so much to the team ,

if a team is sitting deep no point having 2 CB'S holding hands 

[hogesar 9,720]

2 hours ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Yesterday was a classic example of trying to show horn him into the team. Our best central midfield pairing is Nunez and Sara and yesterday we were far to deep as a team, he naturally wants to go deep to get the ball and that affects our shape.

As a CB we play much further forward and play through the lines far quicker.

He's either. CB or not in the starting 11 (for me) but I suspect with Nunez now injured he becomes Sara's partner. Which now exposes us in a different way.

With Barnes not fit enough to start I thought it was the opposite of shoe-horning.

As for McLean, he was our statistically highest rated player (again) but there is certainly a tendency to notice when McLean loses the ball but ignore when Nunez does it.

Yesterday, Nunez pass success % was lower than Kennys and they both lost possession the same amount of times. The difference is McLean actually played more progressive passes, won the ball back 2.5x as much as Nunez hence the higher rating despite the amount of value put towards goals.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

With Barnes not fit enough to start I thought it was the opposite of shoe-horning.

As for McLean, he was our statistically highest rated player (again) but there is certainly a tendency to notice when McLean loses the ball but ignore when Nunez does it.

Yesterday, Nunez pass success % was lower than Kennys and they both lost possession the same amount of times. The difference is McLean actually played more progressive passes, won the ball back 2.5x as much as Nunez hence the higher rating despite the amount of value put towards goals.

Love a stat 😬

Do you think that him playing centre midfield as opposed to centre back is better for the team?

Because of the way in which we now play and everything going through him, him dropping so deep every time is a problem for us, we lose shape, we become exposed and we sit far deeper than we need to.

Maybe Nunez does give it away as much, but less likely to be areas that will hurt us as much as if McLean does because of how deep he sits. 

He had a part to play in the goal we conceded, thought at the time he ducked away from the header that went in so watched it again today and he does. Why drop to the knee, he should be making himself big and try and get something on it, if it then goes in via a deflection then so be it.

[hogesar 9,720]

1 minute ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Love a stat 😬

Do you think that him playing centre midfield as opposed to centre back is better for the team?

Because of the way in which we now play and everything going through him, him dropping so deep every time is a problem for us, we lose shape, we become exposed and we sit far deeper than we need to.

Maybe Nunez does give it away as much, but less likely to be areas that will hurt us as much as if McLean does because of how deep he sits. 

He had a part to play in the goal we conceded, thought at the time he ducked away from the header that went in so watched it again today and he does. Why drop to the knee, he should be making himself big and try and get something on it, if it then goes in via a deflection then so be it.

Haha, it's not one stat though, it's six or seven.

McLean sitting deep is tactical as Nunez does the same if McLean isn't in that position.

As for the goal there are at least 2 more players far more culpable for that goal but again some posters have a particular focus 😃

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Haha, it's not one stat though, it's six or seven.

McLean sitting deep is tactical as Nunez does the same if McLean isn't in that position.

As for the goal there are at least 2 more players far more culpable for that goal but again some posters have a particular focus 😃

Guess in the same way that some will never "see" or admit to him having faults.

Didn't say it wasn't a tactic, although it's less of a tactic when McLean plays as CB, which I've already said he's better suited to.

As for the goal, great, let's avoid giving King Kenny any kind of blame as it's everyone else's fault before it got to him, just a shame that he had the ability to try and do something but decided ducking was the best defensive option available to him in front of goal.

[hogesar 9,720]

7 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Guess in the same way that some will never "see" or admit to him having faults.

Didn't say it wasn't a tactic, although it's less of a tactic when McLean plays as CB, which I've already said he's better suited to.

As for the goal, great, let's avoid giving King Kenny any kind of blame as it's everyone else's fault before it got to him, just a shame that he had the ability to try and do something but decided ducking was the best defensive option available to him in front of goal.

Of course he has faults he plays for Norwich.

And of course he could have done something about the goal but so could Stacey who's man it was to cover and Hanley was..Well im not sure what he was trying to do.

Ultimately the tackles and interceptions from Kenny far outweighs any other midfielder we have so ultimately he's likely saved us a lot more than a bit part role in a set piece goal conceded.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

12 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Of course he has faults he plays for Norwich.

And of course he could have done something about the goal but so could Stacey who's man it was to cover and Hanley was..Well im not sure what he was trying to do.

Ultimately the tackles and interceptions from Kenny far outweighs any other midfielder we have so ultimately he's likely saved us a lot more than a bit part role in a set piece goal conceded.

I'm sure it does outweigh.

As for Stacey and Hanley, poor defending but at least they tried to win the ball, that can't be said for McLean. 

As I said before some will never see his faults and had that been Stacey or others there would be plenty on here hammering him for not trying to do something.

People can't have it all ways

[The Real Buh 3,467]

McLean at Centre back? We’ll just have to see what the Tombola decides.

All hail the tombola

[daly 507]

2 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

I'd totally forgotten all about Duffy 🤣

That’s a good thing

[king canary 7,654]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

As for McLean, he was our statistically highest rated player

By one website.

Nunez rated higher by whoscored.

It's almost like these statistical models are still subjective.

 

[hogesar 9,720]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

By one website.

Nunez rated higher by whoscored.

It's almost like these statistical models are still subjective.

 

Yes, but even on whoscored the Nunez rating is purely because of how heavily weighted scoring a goal is.

Hence me looking at passing %, progressive passes, tackles and interceptions, long balls, y'know, a long list of things that are pretty relevant for a midfielder.

Oh, and  even on whoscored he's the joint second highest rated player lol, 0.2 behind Nunez who has the goal factor.

Edited February 25 by hogesar

[king canary 7,654]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yes, but even on whoscored the Nunez rating is purely because of how heavily weighted scoring a goal is.

Hence me looking at passing %, progressive passes, tackles and interceptions, long balls, y'know, a long list of things that are pretty relevant for a midfielder.

Oh, and  even on whoscored he's the joint second highest rated player lol, 0.2 behind Nunez who has the goal factor.

I'm not arguing he's ****e.

I'm arguing just posting the sofa score rating and saying 'this means he was better!' is overly simplistic.

[hogesar 9,720]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not arguing he's ****e.

I'm arguing just posting the sofa score rating and saying 'this means he was better!' is overly simplistic.

Good job I didn't do that then, happy to quote myself I guess. The overall point I was making is that these threads always pop up when we don't win a game against Kenny, I'm sure you know that much as a poster. Yet the weaknesses being discussed were weaknesses of Nunez too, in this case moreso:

 

Yesterday, Nunez pass success % was lower than Kennys and they both lost possession the same amount of times. The difference is McLean actually played more progressive passes, won the ball back 2.5x as much as Nunez hence the higher rating despite the amount of value put towards goals.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

6 hours ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Yesterday was a classic example of trying to show horn him into the team. Our best central midfield pairing is Nunez and Sara and yesterday we were far to deep as a team, he naturally wants to go deep to get the ball and that affects our shape.

As a CB we play much further forward and play through the lines far quicker.

He's either. CB or not in the starting 11 (for me) but I suspect with Nunez now injured he becomes Sara's partner. Which now exposes us in a different way.

Agree with this. You can't argue with some posters about Kenny. He has a unique position with some fans that he's never to blame for anything. His lack of goals and assists from no.8 over the years is criminal but that gets swept under the carpet. Our awful defensive record when he plays a deeper midfield role is the defenders fault and not his. Our yellow streak through September and October with him as captain was nothing to do with him. He is blameless for all failures and key in all successes. It's remarkable.

I think he is mostly just a bad footballer, but I will say he's done well at centre half this season all things considered, and he had a great game away at Leeds in midfield... but getting one of his fans to say he's been rubbish today, or he doesn't do enough of this, or maybe we need an upgrade, or perhaps he shouldn't be a starter week-in-week-out, or Nunez is a better bet or whatever it is will just never happen. 

Edited February 25 by Worthy Nigelton