I'm open to giving Wagner a chance

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

I was firmly Wagner out a few weeks back, at the point where we looked like strong relegation candidates, but now questioning how much of our situation is down to Wagner and how much of it is down to him being given a poor squad to work with. 50/50 might be fair.

I suppose it depends very much on what Knapper is thinking and he hasn't given too much away so far.

If he's backed with a signing or two in January, in the loan market perhaps, then we might as well just get behind him for the rest of the season and see where that takes us? Its a poor league this season and who knows whether some shrewd business could see us creep into the top 6.

Anybody else coming around to that idea? When I look at the managers we could realistically have taken in the summer, I don't see how this group would have fit those managers either. Russell Martin for example needs ball playing central defenders and a deep lying playmaker who is constantly looking to get on the ball; and he would have had been given Duffy, Baath, and a bunch of number 10s to shoehorn into three centre mid positions.

[Jim Smith 2,325]

I don’t think we have a choice as the club won’t act but I’ve not changed my mind. This team is still playing well below the standards it is capable of snd tactically our set up remains flawed. I’ve seen no signs that Wagner recognises that.

it will take a significant upturn in the quality of performances and some indication that he can see the issues for me to change my mind. 

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

Reluctantly yes, but only out of necessity. I don't like what I see on the pitch but accept there has been improvement.

The return of Sargent is another factor to consider, but there will be a lot of expectation on him to hit the ground running.

I would like to think Knapper is constantly evaluating the situation. If he does have a list of potential candidates to replace DW and one suddenly becomes available, then I wouldn't necessarily wait until the summer...

So are we rebuilding the squad (I.e Knapper's words to reduce average) around Wagnerball or something else?

 

 

[Deptford Yellow 259]

I have also been wondering recently whether this is as much about the players he has at his disposal … (A useful thought experiment is to ask which /how many of our players you could imagine performing in in the Premier League next year if we did somehow sneak promotion via the play-offs?) That said he has a very variable track record and I have never really liked the way he sets his teams up ….

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,755]

I get the feeling calling for Wagner to be sacked is pointless given its clear the players like him and those running the club want him here

 

I do feel regardless of what happens he will be here for the rest of the season at the very least

[RobJames 883]

I think Johnny Rowe's post match comment that City were there to win says a lot. Wagner is not trying to play it safe, as it might have been thought that at 1-1 he would be looking to stick, rather than twist. What, one of the main problems has been the constant loss of players through a few weeks injury - Gino the latest.

Go back a couple of decades, even one perhaps, and this was not a recurring problem. If anything the boots are better now, the ball is the same and the pitches are the best, so why the injuries ? With 5 subs you should be able to give five player at least, a break from a full 90 mins. How many goals (and points) might have been saved (and added) were we to have had Hanley all season ?

[Mr.Carrow 378]

The idea of a Sargent, Sainz, Rowe, Barnes/Idah front 4 with Sara, Nunez and McLean behind all capable of incisive attacking passes has me salivating. I genuinely think we could find another gear.

[TheGunnShow 5,955]

Sainz's passion in the derby tells me a couple of things: he's clearly bought into Wagner/Norwich and the methods employed despite being out for some time and not getting much pitch time after that. You'd expect that from regulars like Rowe and Hernandez, but this came from a sub.

As Cambridge said, the players clearly like Wagner much more than they did Smith and that's a fair part of the battle.

[TheGunnShow 5,955]

19 minutes ago, RobJames said:

I think Johnny Rowe's post match comment that City were there to win says a lot. Wagner is not trying to play it safe, as it might have been thought that at 1-1 he would be looking to stick, rather than twist. What, one of the main problems has been the constant loss of players through a few weeks injury - Gino the latest.

Go back a couple of decades, even one perhaps, and this was not a recurring problem. If anything the boots are better now, the ball is the same and the pitches are the best, so why the injuries ? With 5 subs you should be able to give five player at least, a break from a full 90 mins. How many goals (and points) might have been saved (and added) were we to have had Hanley all season ?

I don't think you realise how much more finely-tuned modern footballers and athletes have to be, and the game has become more intense for running to boot. A lot of this basically boils down to recovery times.

I do not have exact scientific figures for this from a football perspective, but the old rule of thumb dished out to distance runners preparing for races was "one mile per day". This meant if you wanted a run in the days before an event, you'd run at most the number of miles corresponding to the number of days before the event, so if I had a marathon in five days time and fancied a run, I'd run five miles at most. Anything more than that is potential overload with corresponding increased injury risk.

These modern players are often going well over ten or eleven kilometres per match. A wing-back/attacking full-back is probably going over 13, a winger possibly the same too. Sure, the human body recovers quicker when fitter, but this is where fixture congestion comes in. This increases injury risk not just from contact, but also from overuse.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,169]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sainz's passion in the derby tells me a couple of things: he's clearly bought into Wagner/Norwich and the methods employed despite being out for some time and not getting much pitch time after that. You'd expect that from regulars like Rowe and Hernandez, but this came from a sub.

As Cambridge said, the players clearly like Wagner much more than they did Smith and that's a fair part of the battle.

Not quite sure what you're saying here, but Sainz started the game against Ipswich (and the one before against Sheffield Wednesday). 

Agree that the players clearly look as though they like Wagner and are playing for him. 

[TheGunnShow 5,955]

Just now, Thirsty Lizard said:

Not quite sure what you're saying here, but Sainz started the game against Ipswich (and the one before against Sheffield Wednesday). 

Agree that the players clearly look as though they like Wagner and are playing for him. 

In hindsight I didn't write that as precisely as usual - I basically meant Sainz had been very much on the fringes of the starting XI until the last two games, when he started. Hernandez had still been starting matches ahead of him all the way (often much to our bemusement) until those two games you correctly mentioned.

Yet he was more than willing to fight hard and indulge in some sh*thousery as if he had been here for a long time, or been a regular starter for a long time.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,169]

4 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

In hindsight I didn't write that as precisely as usual - I basically meant Sainz had been very much on the fringes of the starting XI until the last two games, when he started. Hernandez had still been starting matches ahead of him all the way (often much to our bemusement) until those two games you correctly mentioned.

Yet he was more than willing to fight hard and indulge in some sh*thousery as if he had been here for a long time, or been a regular starter for a long time.

Yes. I think Sainz is very quickly going to become a fan favourite - lots of skill, great work ethic and a competitive little bu**er too. 

[Keith Nott 12]

I GO TO ALL THE GAMES

And I think Wagner's finally found something. McLean at center half? - genius! Now we got a player who plays from the back.

Rowe and Sainz? GENIUS! Now we got two little guys that like to run at defences. 

BIG KEITH NOTT always said - pace, possession and persistence wins out in this league. Now we got that in spades.

All the best,

Big Keith Nott 

 

[Monty13 2,235]

3 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

I was firmly Wagner out a few weeks back, at the point where we looked like strong relegation candidates, but now questioning how much of our situation is down to Wagner and how much of it is down to him being given a poor squad to work with. 50/50 might be fair.

I suppose it depends very much on what Knapper is thinking and he hasn't given too much away so far.

If he's backed with a signing or two in January, in the loan market perhaps, then we might as well just get behind him for the rest of the season and see where that takes us? Its a poor league this season and who knows whether some shrewd business could see us creep into the top 6.

Anybody else coming around to that idea? When I look at the managers we could realistically have taken in the summer, I don't see how this group would have fit those managers either. Russell Martin for example needs ball playing central defenders and a deep lying playmaker who is constantly looking to get on the ball; and he would have had been given Duffy, Baath, and a bunch of number 10s to shoehorn into three centre mid positions.

I haven’t changed my mind in that I’m happy our club is doing better on the pitch and that Wagner on a personal level is performing, as I genuinely like him.

I can’t stand his football though personally. I don’t want us to play this way and I don’t think building around it is a recipe for long term success. However I’m aware that’s a personal preference and opinion, I’m not looking for us to fail to validate it.

If under Knapper there’s a different strategy and he can be flexible enough to adapt to it….who knows what the future may bring.

[norfolkngood 1,087]

i wanted him Gone ,but he deserves to stay 

i think quite a few players have and unperformed under him ,football has not been good 

we do not look super fit either 

That said he has turned the form around and he deserves to continue 

i think it is a trust thing  ( for me ) , he certainly has the fans guessing what he will do who he subs and who he selects 

i have seen these long winless runs in his recent career and think would a better manager be able to sort that out ?

 

also Transfers was it all Webber last summer or Wagner and Webber who signed all these older pro's ? 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by norfolkngood

[RobJames 883]

4 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I don't think you realise how much more finely-tuned modern footballers and athletes have to be, and the game has become more intense for running to boot. A lot of this basically boils down to recovery times.

I do not have exact scientific figures for this from a football perspective, but the old rule of thumb dished out to distance runners preparing for races was "one mile per day". This meant if you wanted a run in the days before an event, you'd run at most the number of miles corresponding to the number of days before the event, so if I had a marathon in five days time and fancied a run, I'd run five miles at most. Anything more than that is potential overload with corresponding increased injury risk.

These modern players are often going well over ten or eleven kilometres per match. A wing-back/attacking full-back is probably going over 13, a winger possibly the same too. Sure, the human body recovers quicker when fitter, but this is where fixture congestion comes in. This increases injury risk not just from contact, but also from overuse.

I do realise "how much more finely-tuned modern footballers ....". Most supporters do. I also realise when someone has not addressed the points I made. It is NOT about recovery time. It is about incurring the injury. As said, this was not routine a decade or so back, and I would suggest possibly not happening in many other clubs.  In fact this was raised at the AGM (i believe) it being such an anomaly

[mannings bandy legs 391]

I really feel that the fact he does'nt think a CDM is required in this team is a sackable offence in itself. The fact that it appears the squad of players like him,is probably that they realise most of them will be bombed out in the next 2 transfer windows if he goes and a new guy comes in.Sorry if this appears negative but there it is.

[PurpleCanary 5,571]

5 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I don't think you realise how much more finely-tuned modern footballers and athletes have to be, and the game has become more intense for running to boot. A lot of this basically boils down to recovery times.

I do not have exact scientific figures for this from a football perspective, but the old rule of thumb dished out to distance runners preparing for races was "one mile per day". This meant if you wanted a run in the days before an event, you'd run at most the number of miles corresponding to the number of days before the event, so if I had a marathon in five days time and fancied a run, I'd run five miles at most. Anything more than that is potential overload with corresponding increased injury risk.

These modern players are often going well over ten or eleven kilometres per match. A wing-back/attacking full-back is probably going over 13, a winger possibly the same too. Sure, the human body recovers quicker when fitter, but this is where fixture congestion comes in. This increases injury risk not just from contact, but also from overuse.

In the national press one of the current topics is why are so many Newcastle United players out injured at the moment. It certainly isn't just us.

[TheGunnShow 5,955]

8 minutes ago, RobJames said:

I do realise "how much more finely-tuned modern footballers ....". Most supporters do. I also realise when someone has not addressed the points I made. It is NOT about recovery time. It is about incurring the injury. As said, this was not routine a decade or so back, and I would suggest possibly not happening in many other clubs.  In fact this was raised at the AGM (i believe) it being such an anomaly

It is about recovery time at its core - a lack of recovery from arduous activity considerably increases injury risk. Essentially, the less recovery time, the more injuries that are incurred. This is very much the case for hamstring and quadriceps injuries (Dimi's out with his hamstring... and if you want a prime example of a former player who had papier mache hamstrings then it's Lukas Rupp).

This study isn't particularly conclusive due to its small sample size and indeed the majority of the injuries noted were trauma-related, so presumably contact ones in training and matches. However, the introduction does refer to studies that basically say recovery time plays a part.

To quote verbatim: "Bengtsson, Ekstrand, and Hägglund (²⁰¹³) showed that short football-related recovery periods (less than 4 days) increased the number of hamstring and quadriceps injuries compared to longer recovery periods (6 or more days) before the next game. These results were supported by Dupont et al. (²⁰¹⁰). The injury rate was significantly higher for players who played two matches per week compared to one match per week. Ryynänen et al. (²⁰¹³) reported that the number of injuries was significantly higher within the time or during a 5 min period after a special event such as red or yellow cards, goals or injuries of other players. They suggest that these events lead to a break of the normal course of the game that influences the strategic and psychological level of the players and the teams. This changed concentration and awareness may lead to increased injury risk, although these breaks could also be a chance to refocus and reduce injury risk. These objective measures of recovery between and within games can be complemented with subjective measures of perceived stress and recovery."

Recovery–stress balance and injury risk in professional football players: a prospective study - PMC (nih.gov)

[TheGunnShow 5,955]

5 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

In the national press one of the current topics is why are so many Newcastle United players out injured at the moment. It certainly isn't just us.

And Spurs or Brighton for that matter, not to mention Bernardo Silva's comments about having to play the World Club Championship.

[shefcanary 2,435]

5 hours ago, RobJames said:

How many goals (and points) might have been saved (and added) were we to have had Hanley all season ?

I sincerely mean this - none! But that is my own point of view and I'll happily accept others will differ. But I reiterate, Hanley is not as good as some people make him out to be - the equivalent of what Baath was at Sunderland last year maybe, who seem to be doing okay without him? And Hanley cannot direct a header for toffee, so we would definitely have not scored any more. 

[Inch High aka Inchy.. 405]

Let's see what January brings us.

[Indy 3,307]

5 hours ago, Mr.Carrow said:

The idea of a Sargent, Sainz, Rowe, Barnes/Idah front 4 with Sara, Nunez and McLean behind all capable of incisive attacking passes has me salivating. I genuinely think we could find another gear.

Barnes has been a disappointment since Sargent got injured! But yes indeed when you see Rowe, Sargent, Sainze, Nunez, Sara it has a certain excitement in it! We do need a little more quality at the back, Fisher, McCullum & Warner all have potential and quality, maybe with games time we could see big improvements and certainly do have some good young players, then you have Gibs, Idah who should be better, hopefully we might get some decent coaches in to help the youngsters! 
As for Wagner, he no doubt asked for experience to help the squad but I’m sure he never wanted all the journeymen Webber loaded on him!

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

41 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

i wanted him Gone ,but he deserves to stay 

i think quite a few players have and unperformed under him ,football has not been good 

we do not look super fit either 

That said he has turned the form around and he deserves to continue 

i think it is a trust thing  ( for me ) , he certainly has the fans guessing what he will do who he subs and who he selects 

i have seen these long winless runs in his recent career and think would a better manager be able to sort that out ?

 

also Transfers was it all Webber last summer or Wagner and Webber who signed all these older pro's ? 

 

Yeah that's fair. Clearly he's a decent likeable bloke and I can see the sense in giving him more time. 

Fitness is usually obtained during the recovery phase, and I'm no expert, but I wonder if there is a bit of overtraining going on there. That said we seem to be lasting a bit better deeper into games as seen at Bristol and running around without the ball a lot at Ipswich so it's working for some players but not all.

I also firmly believe there has been a stepchange since Knapper arrived and I suspect Wagner's cage was rattled early on. Makes you wonder just how involved Webber actually was as Wagner was on a pretty sharp downward curve, which suggets that 'Mr 90%' wasn't on it either.

 

[RobJames 883]

17 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

And Spurs or Brighton for that matter, not to mention Bernardo Silva's comments about having to play the World Club Championship.

I never said it was just us. And your post actually underpins my thought, as the clubs where this is happening are the exception, NOT the norm. We need to identify the common practice at those and our club, then change

[repman 635]

I just don't think we've gotten any better in a meaningful sense. Results have improved but they're only really in line with what we've done already so far this year. We've only beaten 1 side above us in the league and the two closest sides below us, Cardiff and Bristol City, were more us snatching the win than earning it comprehensively.

I'd love for this run to carry on, especially with more players returning from injury, but I can't help but think we will have another bad run soon and opinion will shift again.

[shefcanary 2,435]

Steve Cooper is available now ....

Does that change anyone's opinion?

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,333]

8 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Steve Cooper is available now ....

Does that change anyone's opinion?

YES!!! give him a blank cheque, let him write whatever he wants on it. 

Thankyou Mr Wagner, your a very nice man and I wish you well, you had started to earn yourself a stay of execution however when someone becomes available who 90% of the teams in the EFL would sell their mothers for them we have to act!!! 

 

[hogesar 9,705]

17 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Steve Cooper is available now ....

Does that change anyone's opinion?

I'd be surprised purely because the amount of people that were anti-Smith from the off because he was being sacked for failing at Villa and walking into a job immediately again.

Personally I'd take him but no chance we sack Wagner in our current form

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

I just hope Knapper has a plan which isn't primarily 'let's wait and see'.

If we don't do much in the January window then that suggests to me there isn't much commitment to Wagner.