"Deluded Madman" Proved Correct?

[Thirsty Lizard 3,166]

Well that was what Wagner is according to many on here when he picked Kenny in central defence against Bristol City. Either that or he was deliberately taking the p*ss in an effort to get sacked and paid up his contract before Christmas.

Kenny then plays pretty well against Bristol and we win. 

"Ah well Bristol are a team of short ar**s, he'll be found out when we have to defend against a bigger team who lump it into our box in the air"

Cue Sheffield Wednesday and their long throw merchant Will Vaulks and bunch of giant meat heads trying to get on the end of long balls into the box. We concede one goal from a long throw, but win comfortably and Kenny gets another assist from centre back to go with the one he got at Bristol City.

"Ah well Bristol City are midtable and Sheffield Wednesday are in the relegation places - it's all very well against teams like that, but we've got the derby against Ipswich coming up and they're flying - this will be the game where the experiment implodes with disastrous and embarrassing results".

And after today's game nobody, but nobody is even mentioning the fact that Kenny was playing in central defence.

Time to give Wagner some credit for the switch maybe? Time for a load of vocal and loud mouthed critics to admit that they might have been wrong?

[Commonsense 626]

2 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Well that was what Wagner is according to many on here when he picked Kenny in central defence against Bristol City. Either that or he was deliberately taking the p*ss in an effort to get sacked and paid up his contract before Christmas.

Kenny then plays pretty well against Bristol and we win. 

"Ah well Bristol are a team of short ar**s, he'll be found out when we have to defend against a bigger team who lump it into our box in the air"

Cue Sheffield Wednesday and their long throw merchant Will Vaulks and bunch of giant meat heads trying to get on the end of long balls into the box. We concede one goal from a long throw, but win comfortably and Kenny gets another assist from centre back to go with the one he got at Bristol City.

"Ah well Bristol City are midtable and Sheffield Wednesday are in the relegation places - it's all very well against teams like that, but we've got the derby against Ipswich coming up and they're flying - this will be the game where the experiment implodes with disastrous and embarrassing results".

And after today's game nobody, but nobody is even mentioning the fact that Kenny was playing in central defence.

Time to give Wagner some credit for the switch maybe? Time for a load of vocal and loud mouthed critics to admit that they might have been wrong?

Somehow, I think you’ll have a long wait!

[Unthink road 132]

Has also allowed Nunez to have more  influence in the game. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,166]

Just now, Commonsense said:

Somehow, I think you’ll have a long wait!

I know - I almost wrote "I won't hold my breath" at the end of my OP. 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,166]

3 minutes ago, Unthink road said:

Has also allowed Nunez to have more  influence in the game. 

Yes, I'll admit that I wasn't sure about him playing as part of a midfield two and in a deeper role than he's usually played for us, but so far he's doing a passable impression of Moritz Leitner at this best for us with a bit more running and work ethic added. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Thirsty Lizard

[KeiranShikari 1,422]

We've still only played **** teams with Kenny at the back to be fair.

Edited December 16, 2023 by KeiranShikari

[cambridgeshire canary 6,742]

Still would like to see Sara get played further forward

[canarydan23 4,060]

In fairness, the Kenny Klub won't like it, but one of the reasons we're doing better with him in defence is because he isn't in midfield. It has allowed Nunez to come in and start to look like the player we hoped we'd signed. He's certainly a step up from McLean in that position.

[RobJames 881]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

In fairness, the Kenny Klub won't like it, but one of the reasons we're doing better with him in defence is because he isn't in midfield. It has allowed Nunez to come in and start to look like the player we hoped we'd signed. He's certainly a step up from McLean in that position.

Then why not drop McLean and play another 'recognised CB ?

[Pyro Pete 1,899]

Kenny has done just fine. His distribution at the back has helped us get a bit more control in games.

But it's still a stopgap measure. Like playing Sara as a defensive midfielder, when he can do much more damage in forward areas.

Plus, it says a lot about our squad when the manager ignores two specialist centre backs, and asks a specialist midfielder to play their role instead.

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

It was only against a team that haven't beat us for 14 years 😉

[Thirsty Lizard 3,166]

3 minutes ago, Pyro Pete said:

Kenny has done just fine. His distribution at the back has helped us get a bit more control in games.

But it's still a stopgap measure. Like playing Sara as a defensive midfielder, when he can do much more damage in forward areas.

Plus, it says a lot about our squad when the manager ignores two specialist centre backs, and asks a specialist midfielder to play their role instead.

True in the case of Baath, but not in the case of Warner who we now know has been carrying an injury for the last few weeks. 

[RobJames 881]

1 minute ago, Pyro Pete said:

Kenny has done just fine. His distribution at the back has helped us get a bit more control in games.

But it's still a stopgap measure. Like playing Sara as a defensive midfielder, when he can do much more damage in forward areas.

Plus, it says a lot about our squad when the manager ignores two specialist centre backs, and asks a specialist midfielder to play their role instead.

Players are more versatile  that many imagine.McLean had filled in at LB and Rowe is showing ho effective he is in front of goal rather than some Neil Adams type winger

I'd argue that both McLean and Sara are better further back - see McLeans through pass for Idahs goal at Bristol and Saras through pass elsewhere. I would have Idah playing further back as he has the ability to control and pass rather than that of a finisher.. Much as with Onel. He is better playing inside as he is a natural ball winner whereas his 'tuns' tend to lead him into a blind alley

[mannings bandy legs 389]

24 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Still would like to see Sara get played further forward

Echo that. At times Sara was playing behind our C/B's at times. Crazy. Have to find way to get him further forward.

[canarydan23 4,060]

26 minutes ago, RobJames said:

Then why not drop McLean and play another 'recognised CB ?

Very good question. Wagner thinks he knows the answer, I'm stumped.

[hogesar 9,692]

12 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Very good question. Wagner thinks he knows the answer, I'm stumped.

Because without Gibson we don't have a CB who can open his body up to receive a pass and play through the lines. It's not a coincidence Kenny has 3 assists from CB,  it's by design in the way Wagner wants to build up play.

The more pertinent question is why did we sign Baath who is literally the antithesis to the above. Explains why Wagner was avoiding playing him.

Also, with McLeans energy, he has often stepped into midfield from CB and almost taken on two roles for the team. A proper player and leader at this level, demonstrating it for yet another season.

[Grumpy 122]

I think its because Wagner recognises the need for a left footed player at centre half.If you notice all the progression from McLean since playing at left centre has been from the left side whereas when he was able to roam in midfield if he was caught out on the right we invariably went either sideways or back.The same can be said with Nunez and Sara,if either of them are caught on their wrong side the ball doesnt get progressed to the same extent as when they are on their favoured foot.

I was certainly not impressed when DW put him there but I have say it seems to have worked although I hope it is not long term  

[The Raptor 1,211]

1 hour ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Well that was what Wagner is according to many on here when he picked Kenny in central defence against Bristol City. Either that or he was deliberately taking the p*ss in an effort to get sacked and paid up his contract before Christmas.

Kenny then plays pretty well against Bristol and we win. 

"Ah well Bristol are a team of short ar**s, he'll be found out when we have to defend against a bigger team who lump it into our box in the air"

Cue Sheffield Wednesday and their long throw merchant Will Vaulks and bunch of giant meat heads trying to get on the end of long balls into the box. We concede one goal from a long throw, but win comfortably and Kenny gets another assist from centre back to go with the one he got at Bristol City.

"Ah well Bristol City are midtable and Sheffield Wednesday are in the relegation places - it's all very well against teams like that, but we've got the derby against Ipswich coming up and they're flying - this will be the game where the experiment implodes with disastrous and embarrassing results".

And after today's game nobody, but nobody is even mentioning the fact that Kenny was playing in central defence.

Time to give Wagner some credit for the switch maybe? Time for a load of vocal and loud mouthed critics to admit that they might have been wrong?

You didnt watch the first half?

Mind you in his defence he was no worse than the others!

[shefcanary 2,410]

47 minutes ago, RobJames said:

Then why not drop McLean and play another 'recognised CB ?

All the old'uns are crap and past it, the young'uns were injured. Wagner likes a balanced right foot / left foot CB pairing. The only passable left footer is Gibson, but not many on here have any faith in him. Will Knapper insist on playing Warner when he's fit again? If he does, Kenny will still be favoured for that CB spot or else you'll moan that Gibson is back. 

 

[Petriix 2,843]

I've been very happy with McLean at centre back. I agree that the midfield is better without him, but think he brings some missing ingredients to the defensive line and works especially well in possession. It definitely solves some of our structural issues and gives us better balance. 

Wagner is also starting Sainz over Hernandez which is probably the number one change people were asking for. Generally the team is looking more capable and more coherent.

It's fair to say, though, that it's taken the manager quite a while to plug the obvious holes and it was reasonable for fans to lose patience seeing the same mistakes being made repeatedly. It's great to see a novel solution but it's ok to question why things had to get so bad in the first place.

I think most of us have been happy with how things are going post Webber. Even the most vociferous Wagner-outers have been silenced by the upturn in performances.

The crazy thing is that we've never been a million miles away from getting it right. We're just lacking a bit of quality in key areas and have had some tactical flaws when out of possession that undermined much of the good work.

I wonder how our season would have gone with some better recruitment and wait with intrigue for what happens in January. 

[RobJames 881]

1 minute ago, shefcanary said:

All the old'uns are crap and past it, the young'uns were injured. Wagner likes a balanced right foot / left foot CB pairing. The only passable left footer is Gibson, but not many on here have any faith in him. Will Knapper insist on playing Warner when he's fit again? If he does, Kenny will still be favoured for that CB spot or else you'll moan that Gibson is back.

eh ?

[Grumpy 122]

When Gibson is fit,or if we get another left sided CB I wouldnt be surprised to see Nunes join McLean with Sara played further forward where it seems lots of people would prefer him to be.
Nunes has certainly improved has game of late

[cornish sam 954]

40 minutes ago, mannings bandy legs said:

Echo that. At times Sara was playing behind our C/B's at times. Crazy. Have to find way to get him further forward.

This obsession with getting sara further forward is a bit odd to me, he arrived with a reputation for being a box to box midfielder, he does best when playmaking from deep and arriving late to attacks and on the few occasions he was played as an AM hasn't really shone... If anything it's Nunez that needs to be a bit more forward

[canarydan23 4,060]

16 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It's not a coincidence Kenny has 3 assists from CB,  it's by design in the way Wagner wants to build up play.

That's incredibly disingenuous and I suspect you know it.

One assist he was playing CM not CB and it was an uncontested flicked a header backwards. The second was a speculative long ball punted up field whilst falling over and the third was an unpressured pass to Sainz who did all the work before dispatching a worldie.

The idea that Wagner had instances like that in mind when moving McLean to CB is pretty laughable. As another poster said, it's probably more to do with his desire to have a left-footed CB at left CB. And in fairness, he's probably better than Gibson there anyway.

Batth didn't do a great deal wrong in his brief stint at the back. I'd be playing him over Duffy if Wagner is desperate for a left footer there. And if he is, a left-footed CB would be top of my January transfer wishlist. It should have been in the summer and was patently obvious to anyone operating above moron level. Sadly, Webber wasn't. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,394]

3 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

This obsession with getting sara further forward is a bit odd to me, he arrived with a reputation for being a box to box midfielder, he does best when playmaking from deep and arriving late to attacks and on the few occasions he was played as an AM hasn't really shone... If anything it's Nunez that needs to be a bit more forward

Exactly.

[canarydan23 4,060]

People have been calling for Sainz to start and for McLean to not play midfield for months. I guess they've been proved correct too?

[shefcanary 2,410]

12 minutes ago, RobJames said:

eh ?

Eh? So you are one of the few Gibson fans then? Good for you. I'm not too upset with him either, but plenty on here don't want him in the team.

I'm feeling much better with our midfield set up without Kenny as well, which I know will draw fire, but I'm consistent in my criticism of him. I actually think if he's not playing as a no.10 or inverted left winger, we've now found his next best position is LCB, closely followed by LB.

What this experiment has revealed is Nunez / Sara can work better as a midfield pivot than any with Kenny in it. Without him also and with some perseverance with Gibbs, I think Nunez / Sara / Gibbs could finally come good as midfield three in the infamous 4-3-3 with, Rowe / Sargent / Saint up front in a fluid front line. 

Feeling strangely positive tonight, and why not.

[king canary 7,609]

I thought it was a bit mad but I've been pleasantly surprised with how it's worked, to the extent I think this may be a more long term move for Kenny rather than a quick fix. 

It can also be said that the midfield looks better without him in it and Nunez has also surprised in this deeper role. This, however, does feel like more of a quick fix. Longer term my view is you still need a more positional sound and defensively secure player either replacing Nunez or playing behind him and Sara, allowing them to be less concerned with defensive work.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

or playing behind him and Sara, allowing them to be less concerned with defensive work.

Nooo, McLean simply cannot provide protection to a back four. He can only work as a CM with a Skipp-like DM next to him. Any sort of DM role is not suitable for him.

[king canary 7,609]

Just now, canarydan23 said:

Nooo, McLean simply cannot provide protection to a back four. He can only work as a CM with a Skipp-like DM next to him. Any sort of DM role is not suitable for him.

Yeah, I never suggested that player should be McLean?