The EPL this year

[Robert N. LiM 4,770]

26 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Am I the only one fairly content with the situation as it has evolved nowadays?

Of course, there are some anomalies with ownership which should have been prevented, eg. Newcastle, but that apart, I think it's fine.

Of course, there are the elites ... there always will be. Big city clubs are nothing new, and money has always ruled the game. Of course, players are overpaid for the most part, but even that is a result of supply and demand.

The Premier League is a virtual worldwide phenomenon, attracting vast television audiences throughout the world. We see our fair share of the world's best performer live regularly on our own televisions as never before. Many of these games present top class sporting entertainment.

And, disagree or not, the Premier League by its very appeal does attract money that infiltrates throughout the game in this country. Would Annatasio have been interested in the English game or in NCFC without the existence of the Premier League's achievements in making the English game such a global attraction or even status symbol. What's more, the oft-predicted bursting of that particular bubble still seems as far away as ever.

It is not as if lesser clubs like NCFC, Bournemouth, Brighton and may be now even ITFC etc. are denied a place at the top table with three chances of promotion to it every year. Minnows always have a chance of their place in the sun. It might be a tough ask, but will never be a closed shop. Their stay might well be short-lived, but if managed properly, it can surely enhance both the club and the spectator experience. Luton, will likely be relegated this season, but their support will have had a season that their fans could only have dreamed of even a few years ago. Their stadium, also, will now be more than the joke it had become. Bournemouth were once our feeder club, we regularly raped them of their best, their true fans must have despised Norwich City. Now look at them.

Of course it is dictated by money, always has been, always will be. Plucky 'Little old Norwich' tried to do it another way and have subsequently failed and have been in need of rescue. I certainly don't now get the impression that the overall reaction to our American involvement amongst the Carrow Road faithful is other than favourable.

I like watching Premier League games of choice on my television. I like watching Euro games of my choice on my television. I like the idea that one day, sooner rather than later, hopefully, we might well have another crack at that nut. I won't be particularly alarmed if we yo-yo again.

I'll appreciate the temporary heightened profile for our club to the full, enjoy seeing the world's best player at Carrow Road or a City game in a bar in some far off destination. That's before we get to the financial windfall ... which has in the past furnished the extensive scouting network that has brought us the likes of Buendia and Sara and paid for the marvellous facilities afforded at Colney and, of course, Academy One status and highly valuable youth products.

The English is what it is. It won't change. Moan, complain and glorify the olden days of standing, 3 pm kick-offs, stinking toilets and "real fans" etc. as much as you like. Football has just changed with the times, the (technical) facilities of the times and the demands of the times. Nothing more, nothing less.

Tin hats on.   

 

I couldn't agree with this less. But I enjoyed the post very much.

[Capt. Pants 4,361]

1 hour ago, BroadstairsR said:

Am I the only one fairly content with the situation as it has evolved nowadays?

Of course, there are some anomalies with ownership which should have been prevented, eg. Newcastle, but that apart, I think it's fine.

Of course, there are the elites ... there always will be. Big city clubs are nothing new, and money has always ruled the game. Of course, players are overpaid for the most part, but even that is a result of supply and demand.

The Premier League is a virtual worldwide phenomenon, attracting vast television audiences throughout the world. We see our fair share of the world's best performer live regularly on our own televisions as never before. Many of these games present top class sporting entertainment.

And, disagree or not, the Premier League by its very appeal does attract money that infiltrates throughout the game in this country. Would Annatasio have been interested in the English game or in NCFC without the existence of the Premier League's achievements in making the English game such a global attraction or even status symbol. What's more, the oft-predicted bursting of that particular bubble still seems as far away as ever.

It is not as if lesser clubs like NCFC, Bournemouth, Brighton and may be now even ITFC etc. are denied a place at the top table with three chances of promotion to it every year. Minnows always have a chance of their place in the sun. It might be a tough ask, but will never be a closed shop. Their stay might well be short-lived, but if managed properly, it can surely enhance both the club and the spectator experience. Luton, will likely be relegated this season, but their support will have had a season that their fans could only have dreamed of even a few years ago. Their stadium, also, will now be more than the joke it had become. Bournemouth were once our feeder club, we regularly raped them of their best, their true fans must have despised Norwich City. Now look at them.

Of course it is dictated by money, always has been, always will be. Plucky 'Little old Norwich' tried to do it another way and have subsequently failed and have been in need of rescue. I certainly don't now get the impression that the overall reaction to our American involvement amongst the Carrow Road faithful is other than favourable.

I like watching Premier League games of choice on my television. I like watching Euro games of my choice on my television. I like the idea that one day, sooner rather than later, hopefully, we might well have another crack at that nut. I won't be particularly alarmed if we yo-yo again.

I'll appreciate the temporary heightened profile for our club to the full, enjoy seeing the world's best player at Carrow Road or a City game in a bar in some far off destination. That's before we get to the financial windfall ... which has in the past furnished the extensive scouting network that has brought us the likes of Buendia and Sara and paid for the marvellous facilities afforded at Colney and, of course, Academy One status and highly valuable youth products.

The English is what it is. It won't change. Moan, complain and glorify the olden days of standing, 3 pm kick-offs, stinking toilets and "real fans" etc. as much as you like. Football has just changed with the times, the (technical) facilities of the times and the demands of the times. Nothing more, nothing less.

Tin hats on.   

 

Oh I agree. Personally I can't stand watching rubbish football. It will go against the grain with some on here but I wouldn't pay to watch lower league stuff (or watch it for free either). Football has evolved, the quality is amazing in the EPL. 

From my perspective it's that the Championship seems to be getting worse year on year. I mean, result aside, that Bristol City/Norwich was woeful. I'm not sure I understand why that is happening otherthan there isn't enough good players to go round.

[Danke bitte 973]

6 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Oh I agree. Personally I can't stand watching rubbish football. It will go against the grain with some on here but I wouldn't pay to watch lower league stuff (or watch it for free either). Football has evolved, the quality is amazing in the EPL. 

From my perspective it's that the Championship seems to be getting worse year on year. I mean, result aside, that Bristol City/Norwich was woeful. I'm not sure I understand why that is happening otherthan there isn't enough good players to go round.

I do both. I enjoy the Prem for what it is, soap opera. But if I want to enjoy grit and “proper” football I do my football tourism stuff which is paying £25 for a cheap L1 L2 game and it takes my mind off worrying about Norwich. 

The Championship is slowly turning into a have got and have not league anyway. 

[Yobocop 1,127]

Luton are going to stay up 

[lake district canary 4,588]

7 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

 Football has evolved, the quality is amazing in the EPL. 

Hmmm. I can't take it seriously. I see some great skills, even some occasional good team play, but also a lot of selfishness, cheating/diving and players trying to get others booked/sent off. The money involved is crazy, it is geared to exploiting people from all round the world - at the expense of real fans. Add to that the insane abomination that is VAR and pathetically weak refereeing, the overhype from the media and the obsession with stats and overall, for me there is too much nonsense that goes along with it. 

Give me real football any day. I'd rather watch park football. If we get in the PL, I'll want us to do well, but for me the PL is a bit of a joke, a bad joke at that. 

 

 

[Google Bot 3,448]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

I don't think looking at Brentford / Brighton and saying "just do that" is realistic

That's pretty much what we'll be aiming to with Attanasio's help, I thought?

We're certainly not following the Forest model which you exampled, which is a far more unstable, scattergun approach, plus based on league positions is actually less successful longerterm.

To me that further goes to prove that this isn't entirely about money, rather more efficient management and identifying talent better.  Money can paper over a lot of those cracks, but look at Everton when they were a well run club vs where they are now after excessive spending.  (A point well made by Deila after the AGM).

Edited December 7, 2023 by Google Bot

[Danke bitte 973]

@shefcanary see above 

[duke63 565]

36 minutes ago, Yobocop said:

Luton are going to stay up 

Too many teams, us included think that winning the Championship, often at a canter, by playing open and expansive football is the way forward.

Problem is once in the EPL many teams can play that way but with better players so unsurprisingly it doesn't work for the promoted squads.

Luton have given some big teams a run for their money because they have a big, strong and athletic squad of players. To my mind, if we want to have any chance of staying up we need to be looking at that way forward.

Farkeball might well get Leeds promoted but i bet they don't stay up if they do.

[Ulfotto 678]

1 hour ago, duke63 said:

Too many teams, us included think that winning the Championship, often at a canter, by playing open and expansive football is the way forward.

Problem is once in the EPL many teams can play that way but with better players so unsurprisingly it doesn't work for the promoted squads.

Luton have given some big teams a run for their money because they have a big, strong and athletic squad of players. To my mind, if we want to have any chance of staying up we need to be looking at that way forward.

Farkeball might well get Leeds promoted but i bet they don't stay up if they do.

This analysis is spot on but there is no reason not to play the open expansive football in the championship it clearly works Farkeball, Burnley and Bielsa Leeds prove this. As against championship teams in my opinion if you have over 65% possession consistently teams tire in the last 5-10 minutes and make mistakes. This doesn’t happen as much in the premier league as the teams you compete against are used to doing it week in and out.
 

I am loathe to credit them but Brentford have sought have done it right they were an open expansive team in the championship team but these days they are much much more pragmatic and are often a direct team relying on set pieces. This is a similar pattern to Lambert Norwich where we were much more open in the championship with the diamond formation with Wes whereas upon promotion we had the ability to play different styles when needed.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Ulfotto

[makham 81]

5 hours ago, Google Bot said:

1 point a game is what you generally need to survive, they're just above half that at the moment.

That said, Luton are above the relegation zone right now which is incredible considering where they've come from in such a short amount of time.  So it's not all impossible, Brentford being the shining example recently, of course.

Don't forget that Luton are only out of the relegation places because of Everton's (10) points deduction. Based on this season's form, I would expect them to be overtaking Luton pretty soon. 

Think the general feeling on this thread that for any one of Luton, Sheff U. and Burnley to  survive they will need to pull off something incredibly special  is correct. 

[Ulfotto 678]

16 minutes ago, makham said:

Don't forget that Luton are only out of the relegation places because of Everton's (10) points deduction. Based on this season's form, I would expect them to be overtaking Luton pretty soon. 

Think the general feeling on this thread that for any one of Luton, Sheff U. and Burnley to  survive they will need to pull off something incredibly special  is correct. 

Agreed or someone will have to implode looking at Nottingham Forest perhaps.

[Robert N. LiM 4,770]

30 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

I am loathe to credit them but Brentford have sought have done it right they were an open expansive team in the championship team

Is this true? Genuine question. My instinct is that they played much more on the break than us (or last year's Burnley, or Farke's Leeds). Open and expansive, perhaps, but I doubt they often had 65% possession. Which then in turn would make the PL transition a bit easier to make.

On reflection maybe that's what you're saying - more like Lambert's NCFC than Farke's, in which case I agree.

[duke63 565]

17 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Is this true? Genuine question. My instinct is that they played much more on the break than us (or last year's Burnley, or Farke's Leeds). Open and expansive, perhaps, but I doubt they often had 65% possession. Which then in turn would make the PL transition a bit easier to make.

On reflection maybe that's what you're saying - more like Lambert's NCFC than Farke's, in which case I agree.

We were on another level above Brentford in the Championship the year we both got promoted.

The next season they were on another level above us. I realise we lost Emi who was the spark that made the whole team tick but they obviously learned a lot where as we didn't.

It was ironic that Farke was sacked the day we beat them but they finished far above us by the end of the season.

We have to be a lot more pragmatic were we to get promoted again.

[Ulfotto 678]

28 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Is this true? Genuine question. My instinct is that they played much more on the break than us (or last year's Burnley, or Farke's Leeds). Open and expansive, perhaps, but I doubt they often had 65% possession. Which then in turn would make the PL transition a bit easier to make.

On reflection maybe that's what you're saying - more like Lambert's NCFC than Farke's, in which case I agree.

I’m no expert on Brentford my recollection from 20/21 was a team that exclusively played out from the back and through the thirds maybe I am not remembering correctly. Whereas whenever I see them now which again is not often they seem like a long ball team.

[It's Character Forming 1,167]

It's a combination of the ridiculous money that's come in from TV which started in the 90s and has just gone up and up, plus the Bosman ruling.  When Sky started to pump money in, there were plenty of dire predictions about the effect on the game, and the doomsayers have pretty much been proved right.

 

If you want a competitive league when any team, including newly promoted, has a genuine chance of winning, you have to go back to the 70s/80s.  Nowadays you've got to be willing to chuck around hundreds of £m just to have a decent chance of staying up, or hit on a formula that works for a season or two (viz Brentford, Sheff Utd a few seasons back, or us under Lambert /Hughton) but doesn't last.

 

There are upsides, basically the PL attracts a lot of the best football talent from around the world so there are some incredibly talented players on display (although the very top players such as Messi, Mbappe etc generally stay away) and there are a lot of exciting games.  

 

Personally my take from the past 10 years is as follows :

• It's lots of fun to get promoted to the PL.
• Seasons in the PL itself vary from "mixed at best with a few standout moments" to dire, unless you have serious money to chuck at it.
•  there is no magic formula that can achieve long-lasting PL success without lots of money to back it.
• Getting "established" in the PL is a pretty meaningless concept.
• The one thing that's worse than getting promoted to the PL followed by relegation after a season or two (or three) is getting marooned in the lower leagues for 15-20 years as  happened to the binners.

[It's Character Forming 1,167]

It's a combination of the ridiculous money that's come in from TV which started in the 90s and has just gone up and up, plus the Bosman ruling.  When Sky started to pump money in, there were plenty of dire predictions about the effect on the game, and the doomsayers have pretty much been proved right.

 

If you want a competitive league when any team, including newly promoted, has a genuine chance of winning, you have to go back to the 70s/80s.  Nowadays you've got to be willing to chuck around hundreds of £m just to have a decent chance of staying up, or hit on a formula that works for a season or two (viz Brentford, Sheff Utd a few seasons back, or us under Lambert /Hughton) but doesn't last.

 

There are upsides, basically the PL attracts a lot of the best football talent from around the world so there are some incredibly talented players on display (although the very top players such as Messi, Mbappe etc generally stay away) and there are a lot of exciting games.  

 

Personally my take from the past 10 years is as follows :

• It's lots of fun to get promoted to the PL.
• Seasons in the PL itself vary from "mixed at best with a few standout moments" to dire, unless you have serious money to chuck at it.
•  there is no magic formula that can achieve long-lasting PL success without lots of money to back it.
• Getting "established" in the PL is a pretty meaningless concept.
• The one thing that's worse than getting promoted to the PL followed by relegation after a season or two (or three) is getting marooned in the lower leagues for 15-20 years as  happened to the binners.

[The Real Buh 3,499]

8 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Some B@&locks

Nobody asked you mate

[BroadstairsR 2,260]

8 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I couldn't agree with this less. But I enjoyed the post very much.

Fair enough, but you have never come over to me as one of those on this forum who is stuck in the past.

What alternatives/betterment do you see as preferable or even possible in our age?

[nutty nigel 7,716]

9 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

If there was a formula for staying up everyone would be doing it. We in 19/20 we didn’t spend and stuck with the players who got us up and the result was we failed miserably. Two years later we spend loads of money and we failed miserably. Fulham spend a 100 million and got relegated. Forest spend 150 million and stayed up. Nigel Worthington tried signing experience in Helveg, Charlton etc… that failed badly. Personally I think timing really helps Leeds, Southampton and Leicester all kinda of imploded last season which helped the 3 promoted teams stay up.

This really.

There's not a formula. The only time we went up and stayed up we spent virtually nothing. We then stayed up again spending virtually nothing because we paid off the debts. When we finally had some money to spend we had that epic transfer window where we brought in RVW, Hooper, Fer, Garrido, Olsson, Elmander, and Carlo Nash who apparently was the real winner of POTS. 

But as most of these posts say. PL is something you watch. It's totally geared for TV. It's ridiculous when you're at games trying to support your team. But then supporters at games are a nuisance in the prem. Especially if you have a decent seat that could be sold to a 'tripper'. McNally knew this when he stopped concessions in such seats. Of course back in the champs they could do with the concessions back but then pesky season ticket holders would buy them and expect to stay there if their team was promoted.

There's definitely two games now and the TV version generates most money.

[Midlands Yellow 4,176]

6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

This really.

There's not a formula. The only time we went up and stayed up we spent virtually nothing. We then stayed up again spending virtually nothing because we paid off the debts. When we finally had some money to spend we had that epic transfer window where we brought in RVW, Hooper, Fer, Garrido, Olsson, Elmander, and Carlo Nash who apparently was the real winner of POTS. 

But as most of these posts say. PL is something you watch. It's totally geared for TV. It's ridiculous when you're at games trying to support your team. But then supporters at games are a nuisance in the prem. Especially if you have a decent seat that could be sold to a 'tripper'. McNally knew this when he stopped concessions in such seats. Of course back in the champs they could do with the concessions back but then pesky season ticket holders would buy them and expect to stay there if their team was promoted.

There's definitely two games now and the TV version generates most money.

Don’t worry too much. If and when we next go up S&J will be gone and the Yanks will have a far better plan on how to survive. Exciting times ahead I do believe. 

[nutty nigel 7,716]

1 hour ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Don’t worry too much. If and when we next go up S&J will be gone and the Yanks will have a far better plan on how to survive. Exciting times ahead I do believe. 

Well of course if you're right being an established PL club is just around the corner. S&J haven't had any trouble reaching the promised land but haven't managed more than a three year stint once there. This automatic improvement you talk of is exciting. A word of caution though. There are a lot of 'Yanks' owning football clubs in the prem and champs, even league one. Lets hope ours are cleverer than the rest. 

One of the things the yanks could do would be to get a proper hold on their product. Stop the streams and get an income closer to what legacy fans have to pay inside Carrow Road. There's too many freeloaders claiming to support our club.

Edited December 7, 2023 by nutty nigel

[Midlands Yellow 4,176]

7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Well of course if you're right being an established PL club is just around the corner. S&J haven't had any trouble reaching the promised land but haven't managed more than a three year stint once there. This automatic improvement you talk of is exciting. A word of caution though. There are a lot of 'Yanks' owning football clubs in the prem and champs, even league one. Lets hope they're cleverer than the rest. 

One of the things the yanks could do would be to get a proper hold on their product. Stop the streams and get an income closer to what legacy fans have to pay inside Carrow Road. There's too many freeloaders claiming to support our club.

Trust your heart and instincts. Super Mark talked sense this time last week as he watched S&J have a mad meltdown. We are going to move from the extreme amateur regime to a far more more up to date professional one. 

It’s been a long time waiting for but hallelujah it’s coming. 
 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Midlands Yellow

[nutty nigel 7,716]

13 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Trust your heart and instincts. Super Mark talked sense this time last week as he watched S&J have a mad meltdown. We are going to move from the extreme amateur regime to a far more more up to date professional one. 

It’s been a long time waiting for but hallelujah it’s coming. 
 

What sense? 

[Midlands Yellow 4,176]

22 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

What sense? 

Love you, off to watch Murder Maps on YouTube. Edith Thompson case tonight, a massive miscarriage of justice. 

[DraytonBoy 171]

Everton couldn't have picked a better season to have a 10 point deduction, already out of the bottom three and will likely be safe in a couple of months.