The EPL this year

[dylanisabaddog 5,165]

The 3 promoted clubs look certain to come straight back down. They have so far managed 21 points in 45 games because the which equates to 18 points in a 38 game season. It looks like 25 points will be enough to stay up. 

There have been numerous threads about the current state of our club but surely the bigger picture is that it's now virtually impossible to go up and stay up? It really is a ridiculous state of affairs. I'm sure Ipswich fans are very happy with their progress but do they realise what is going to happen if they go up? They are doing well at the moment but they don't have a single Premier League standard player and would probably need to spend £200m just to finish 17th. It's a crazy situation and sadly the EPL is now governed by self interest, not the interest of the game. 

In defence of the Premier League, this season has produced some excellent games and Villa have been a revelation. Where would they be if Emi had been available?  But overall, what on earth is the point? 

[Midlands Yellow 4,176]

36 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The 3 promoted clubs look certain to come straight back down. They have so far managed 21 points in 45 games because the which equates to 18 points in a 38 game season. It looks like 25 points will be enough to stay up. 

There have been numerous threads about the current state of our club but surely the bigger picture is that it's now virtually impossible to go up and stay up? It really is a ridiculous state of affairs. I'm sure Ipswich fans are very happy with their progress but do they realise what is going to happen if they go up? They are doing well at the moment but they don't have a single Premier League standard player and would probably need to spend £200m just to finish 17th. It's a crazy situation and sadly the EPL is now governed by self interest, not the interest of the game. 

In defence of the Premier League, this season has produced some excellent games and Villa have been a revelation. Where would they be if Emi had been available?  But overall, what on earth is the point? 

Fulham, Bournemouth and Forest all stayed up Last season. 

[Newtopia 522]

40 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The 3 promoted clubs look certain to come straight back down. They have so far managed 21 points in 45 games because the which equates to 18 points in a 38 game season. It looks like 25 points will be enough to stay up. 

There have been numerous threads about the current state of our club but surely the bigger picture is that it's now virtually impossible to go up and stay up? It really is a ridiculous state of affairs. I'm sure Ipswich fans are very happy with their progress but do they realise what is going to happen if they go up? They are doing well at the moment but they don't have a single Premier League standard player and would probably need to spend £200m just to finish 17th. It's a crazy situation and sadly the EPL is now governed by self interest, not the interest of the game. 

In defence of the Premier League, this season has produced some excellent games and Villa have been a revelation. Where would they be if Emi had been available?  But overall, what on earth is the point? 

I agree, the gap is just ridiculous.  We all jumped on Webbers back the season he bought in Norman, Kabak, Sargent, and Rashica - but in truth each for about 10 - 15M pounds, they are very cheap premiership purchases - definitely squad players not key players.  Top sides do not expect £20M players to be certain of success, yet we need those all to improve us.

The three that stayed up last season are actually proof of the pattern, as they are all very wealthy.

[dylanisabaddog 5,165]

8 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Fulham, Bournemouth and Forest all stayed up Last season. 

And are currently 15th, 6th and 17th

[Jim Smith 2,374]

1 hour ago, Newtopia said:

I agree, the gap is just ridiculous.  We all jumped on Webbers back the season he bought in Norman, Kabak, Sargent, and Rashica - but in truth each for about 10 - 15M pounds, they are very cheap premiership purchases - definitely squad players not key players.  Top sides do not expect £20M players to be certain of success, yet we need those all to improve us.

The three that stayed up last season are actually proof of the pattern, as they are all very wealthy.

I don’t think the gap is that ridiculous. The teams that went up from the champ last season were the worst three teams I can ever recall getting promoted as the likes of us, WBA and Watford made a complete hash of our seasons. Burnley the only decent one but their style of play a bit Farkeesque so not surprised they’ve struggled 

[The Real Buh 3,499]

There is no real point. You are just there as cannon fodder 

The extra-extra time is just there so the big teams can get last minute winners as well, VAR favours big clubs massively.

The league is a total joke and the sooner they breakaway the better

[Ulfotto 678]

If the 3 relegated teams go up so Leeds, Southampton and Leicester. It will be very interesting who the cannon fodder is.

[Branston Pickle 3,775]

43 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

If the 3 relegated teams go up so Leeds, Southampton and Leicester. It will be very interesting who the cannon fodder is.

You seem to forget that Ipswich are - apparently- nailed on certainties. 

[Danke bitte 973]

Brentford and Brighton have done pretty well. Got up, stayed up, consolidated and progressed. Under the previous model of ownership, I’d agree, no point in getting promoted. With a canny DoF and financial backing who knows what’s possible? I don’t like the Premier League, but it doesn’t mean to say I don’t want us to get there and actually try next time. 

[Capt. Pants 4,360]

That new Sky deal means any breakaway league will have to have some serious money behind just to play glorified friendlies.

Money buys you quality and there is precious little in the Championship, hence the scummers making it look easy.

At the end of the day it is what is and personally I'd rather watch World Class quality than a deliberately watered down version just to keep the 'poor' happy.

[RobJames 921]

22 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Brentford and Brighton have done pretty well. Got up, stayed up, consolidated and progressed. Under the previous model of ownership, I’d agree, no point in getting promoted. With a canny DoF and financial backing who knows what’s possible? I don’t like the Premier League, but it doesn’t mean to say I don’t want us to get there and actually try next time. 

"Consolidated is meaningless. No club below the top 8 or so have 'consolidated', ask Leicester Leeds, Southampton and any number of clubs who once thought they had 'consolidated'. Brighton have spent a hideous amount of money to put them where they are. Is that going to be an everlasting source of funding ? Ask Blackburn, or Wigan.

The increased TV money will merely mean higher wages as the top eight seek to retain the lucrative money that European TV brings and the rest in debt themselves only to eventually fall Icarus like out of the PL. It's never a case of if, but when. The days of us finishing 3rd or the binners finishing 5th are long gone. Of course, after struggling for the past 20 years, they are stumbling blinking into the sunlight - oblivious to the reality of how it is now. Allow them their moment of freedom.

Sadly, there are those who imagine for us that a season or so as cannon fodder amounts to success. Like some of those absurd Kung Fu films where 20 blokes dance around the one in the middle, each waiting his turn to have the sht kicked out of him, whereas if they were all to piled] in at once together it would be over in a matter of seconds.

Those 8 need the rest far more than the others need them. The cannon fodder give some semblance of competition. Seen starkly in Scotland. Would the Scottish PL be better without them. Of course. It would open up competition and encourage greater interest as the title would not be a forgone conclusion, before Xmas, as it is now.

[Google Bot 3,448]

1 point a game is what you generally need to survive, they're just above half that at the moment.

That said, Luton are above the relegation zone right now which is incredible considering where they've come from in such a short amount of time.  So it's not all impossible, Brentford being the shining example recently, of course.

[TIL 1010 4,855]

Did their XG stats see this situation coming ?

[hogesar 9,890]

4 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Did their XG stats see this situation coming ?

Yes. It was clear. 

[hogesar 9,890]

3 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Fulham, Bournemouth and Forest all stayed up Last season. 

But Fulham spent what, £200m over 3 attempts at staying up before they finally done it? It kind of only further proves the OP's point.

Forest signed about 97 players in a scattergun approach and a season later find themselves being thumped 5-0 by a league rival.

 

[Danke bitte 973]

23 minutes ago, RobJames said:

"Consolidated is meaningless. No club below the top 8 or so have 'consolidated', ask Leicester Leeds, Southampton and any number of clubs who once thought they had 'consolidated'. Brighton have spent a hideous amount of money to put them where they are. Is that going to be an everlasting source of funding ? Ask Blackburn, or Wigan.

The increased TV money will merely mean higher wages as the top eight seek to retain the lucrative money that European TV brings and the rest in debt themselves only to eventually fall Icarus like out of the PL. It's never a case of if, but when. The days of us finishing 3rd or the binners finishing 5th are long gone. Of course, after struggling for the past 20 years, they are stumbling blinking into the sunlight - oblivious to the reality of how it is now. Allow them their moment of freedom.

Sadly, there are those who imagine for us that a season or so as cannon fodder amounts to success. Like some of those absurd Kung Fu films where 20 blokes dance around the one in the middle, each waiting his turn to have the sht kicked out of him, whereas if they were all to piled] in at once together it would be over in a matter of seconds.

Those 8 need the rest far more than the others need them. The cannon fodder give some semblance of competition. Seen starkly in Scotland. Would the Scottish PL be better without them. Of course. It would open up competition and encourage greater interest as the title would not be a forgone conclusion, before Xmas, as it is now.

So you’re a pro Promotion kinda guy then :  D

[Danke bitte 973]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

But Fulham spent what, £200m over 3 attempts at staying up before they finally done it? It kind of only further proves the OP's point.

Forest signed about 97 players in a scattergun approach and a season later find themselves being thumped 5-0 by a league rival.

 

Both examples you point to there, and you highlight the latter as well, did they have an effective approach to spending the money they did? I’d argue probably not. Again, I’ll point to Brentford and Brighton (ignoring RobJames’ comment above re: consolidation) as examples of well thought out transfer plans that have meant they’ve stayed beyond 1 season. I think this is my crux, I’d like to see us at least get beyond 1 season in the Premier League. Regardless of finishing position. That would mean success to me. I guess success is dependent on a fan’s viewpoint. Do I think we can push for Europe, no. Do I think we can stay up beyond a season, yes I do and have some fun on the way. 
 

We’ll always flirt with relegation and probably yo yo but it’s the last few times we’ve been up and I’ll include Neil’s tilt too, we’ve stunk up the place. It would be nice to go up, take a few scalps, and see out more than a season. 

[hogesar 9,890]

11 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Both examples you point to there, and you highlight the latter as well, did they have an effective approach to spending the money they did? I’d argue probably not. Again, I’ll point to Brentford and Brighton (ignoring RobJames’ comment above re: consolidation) as examples of well thought out transfer plans that have meant they’ve stayed beyond 1 season. I think this is my crux, I’d like to see us at least get beyond 1 season in the Premier League. Regardless of finishing position. That would mean success to me. I guess success is dependent on a fan’s viewpoint. Do I think we can push for Europe, no. Do I think we can stay up beyond a season, yes I do and have some fun on the way. 
 

We’ll always flirt with relegation and probably yo yo but it’s the last few times we’ve been up and I’ll include Neil’s tilt too, we’ve stunk up the place. It would be nice to go up, take a few scalps, and see out more than a season. 

I don't disagree regarding spending more than a season but I don't think looking at Brentford / Brighton and saying "just do that" is realistic. Otherwise, in terms of club size, there's about 20 clubs who'll all be Championship (or below) who should feel entitled to multiple seasons of Premier League football - and most of them haven't got promoted once in the time we've been promoted twice!

[yellowrider120 812]

4 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

And are currently 15th, 6th and 17th

But they did not come 'straight back down' as you suggest all promoted sides pretty much do every time. You've also written off Luton who at least are making a real go at it even though points haul is still low. Compare their thrilling 3-4 defeat v Arsenal to our pathetic attempt v same opposition just after Christmas in last PL season. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,176]

4 hours ago, hogesar said:

But Fulham spent what, £200m over 3 attempts at staying up before they finally done it? It kind of only further proves the OP's point.

Forest signed about 97 players in a scattergun approach and a season later find themselves being thumped 5-0 by a league rival.

 

It clearly doesn’t. So the OP only meant ‘What’s the point ‘ of being promoted starting from the season but ignoring the one before? Our problem was having little money and Mr Webber blowing the pot. Take the Buendia fee off our spend and it really wasn’t that big 21/22. That said you conveniently don’t mention Bournemouth who only spent £24 last summer. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Midlands Yellow

[dylanisabaddog 5,165]

32 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Again, I’ll point to Brentford and Brighton (ignoring RobJames’ comment above re: consolidation) as examples of well thought out transfer plans that have meant they’ve stayed beyond 1 season. 

But those 2 clubs ran up debts to their owners in the region of a combined £600m.  Forest's owner spent has spent £250m so far. That's simply not sustainable. 

Someone above has used Villa as a shining example of what can happen if you 'invest' but overlooks the fact that they only survived in year 1 because of the worst refereeing decision in Premier League history. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,931]

2 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

But they did not come 'straight back down' as you suggest all promoted sides pretty much do every time. You've also written off Luton who at least are making a real go at it even though points haul is still low. Compare their thrilling 3-4 defeat v Arsenal to our pathetic attempt v same opposition just after Christmas in last PL season. 

Is rather interesting how nobody has been all "Luton/Sheffield United just got promoted for the money they are not even bothering to try already resigned to relegation they should be banned from ever being promoted to the Prem again" like people were with us huh?

Edited December 7, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[dylanisabaddog 5,165]

3 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

But they did not come 'straight back down' as you suggest all promoted sides pretty much do every time. You've also written off Luton who at least are making a real go at it even though points haul is still low. Compare their thrilling 3-4 defeat v Arsenal to our pathetic attempt v same opposition just after Christmas in last PL season. 

Luton are making a real go at it. Really? They've got 9 points from 15 games. That's the equivalent of 23 points at the end of the season. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,176]

4 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

And are currently 15th, 6th and 17th

Fulham are 12th. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,931]

6 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Luton are making a real go at it. Really? They've got 9 points from 15 games. That's the equivalent of 23 points at the end of the season. 

Given they were in League Two just five years ago..

[dylanisabaddog 5,165]

Just now, cambridgeshire canary said:

Given they were in League Two just five years ago..

That really is irrelevant. The point of this thread is the growing disparity between the Championship and the Premier League. 

At the start of this season many people said this was the strongest Championship in years. It isn't. The teams vying for 3 play off places are ordinary at best. God help any of them that go up. With a fully fit squad we would probably be there or thereabouts and let's face it, this side would be destroyed by either of our last 2 promoted teams. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,931]

1 minute ago, dylanisabaddog said:

That really is irrelevant. The point of this thread is the growing disparity between the Championship and the Premier League. 

At the start of this season many people said this was the strongest Championship in years. It isn't. The teams vying for 3 play off places are ordinary at best. God help any of them that go up. With a fully fit squad we would probably be there or thereabouts and let's face it, this side would be destroyed by either of our last 2 promoted teams. 

Would agree about the Championship bit. I mean given how awful we have been at times the fact we are still just four points outside the playoffs is pretty crazy.

 

[Danke bitte 973]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I don't disagree regarding spending more than a season but I don't think looking at Brentford / Brighton and saying "just do that" is realistic. Otherwise, in terms of club size, there's about 20 clubs who'll all be Championship (or below) who should feel entitled to multiple seasons of Premier League football - and most of them haven't got promoted once in the time we've been promoted twice!

Doing a Brentford / Brighton isn’t as easy as just saying let’s follow that model - you’re quite right, everyone would be doing it.

I think it requires a hell of a lot of mindset shifting in order for it to work; just in terms of getting the right personnel on board against a backdrop of being financed by a group with access to billions. In short, a lot has to go right. I do think they’re anomalies and hats off to them, I think their infrastructure and hiring model has been utterly superb. 

[BroadstairsR 2,260]

Am I the only one fairly content with the situation as it has evolved nowadays?

Of course, there are some anomalies with ownership which should have been prevented, eg. Newcastle, but that apart, I think it's fine.

Of course, there are the elites ... there always will be. Big city clubs are nothing new, and money has always ruled the game. Of course, players are overpaid for the most part, but even that is a result of supply and demand.

The Premier League is a virtual worldwide phenomenon, attracting vast television audiences throughout the world. We see our fair share of the world's best performer live regularly on our own televisions as never before. Many of these games present top class sporting entertainment.

And, disagree or not, the Premier League by its very appeal does attract money that infiltrates throughout the game in this country. Would Annatasio have been interested in the English game or in NCFC without the existence of the Premier League's achievements in making the English game such a global attraction or even status symbol. What's more, the oft-predicted bursting of that particular bubble still seems as far away as ever.

It is not as if lesser clubs like NCFC, Bournemouth, Brighton and may be now even ITFC etc. are denied a place at the top table with three chances of promotion to it every year. Minnows always have a chance of their place in the sun. It might be a tough ask, but will never be a closed shop. Their stay might well be short-lived, but if managed properly, it can surely enhance both the club and the spectator experience. Luton, will likely be relegated this season, but their support will have had a season that their fans could only have dreamed of even a few years ago. Their stadium, also, will now be more than the joke it had become. Bournemouth were once our feeder club, we regularly raped them of their best, their true fans must have despised Norwich City. Now look at them.

Of course it is dictated by money, always has been, always will be. Plucky 'Little old Norwich' tried to do it another way and have subsequently failed and have been in need of rescue. I certainly don't now get the impression that the overall reaction to our American involvement amongst the Carrow Road faithful is other than favourable.

I like watching Premier League games of choice on my television. I like watching Euro games of my choice on my television. I like the idea that one day, sooner rather than later, hopefully, we might well have another crack at that nut. I won't be particularly alarmed if we yo-yo again.

I'll appreciate the temporary heightened profile for our club to the full, enjoy seeing the world's best player at Carrow Road or a City game in a bar in some far off destination. That's before we get to the financial windfall ... which has in the past furnished the extensive scouting network that has brought us the likes of Buendia and Sara and paid for the marvellous facilities afforded at Colney and, of course, Academy One status and highly valuable youth products.

The English is what it is. It won't change. Moan, complain and glorify the olden days of standing, 3 pm kick-offs, stinking toilets and "real fans" etc. as much as you like. Football has just changed with the times, the (technical) facilities of the times and the demands of the times. Nothing more, nothing less.

Tin hats on.   

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[Ulfotto 678]

If there was a formula for staying up everyone would be doing it. We in 19/20 we didn’t spend and stuck with the players who got us up and the result was we failed miserably. Two years later we spend loads of money and we failed miserably. Fulham spend a 100 million and got relegated. Forest spend 150 million and stayed up. Nigel Worthington tried signing experience in Helveg, Charlton etc… that failed badly. Personally I think timing really helps Leeds, Southampton and Leicester all kinda of imploded last season which helped the 3 promoted teams stay up.