Passing

[Petriix 2,847]

We simply lack the required passing ability to perform at this level. There's literally no point in Hernandez being on the pitch because he can't ever play a successful attacking pass. We can't hit teams on the break because we can't play the two or three quick passes to cut teams open. There's been so much emphasis on physical attributes and workrate, they entirely forgot to sign players who can actually kick the ball in the right direction. This squad is going nowhere until we find a way to get some skillful players into the midfield.

[TheGunnShow 5,979]

Change the 'a' in passing to an 'i' and that sums up what we do with possession.

[Petriix 2,847]

Hernandez has had 23 touches tonight but only attempted 6 passes. Of those, literally two of them have been successful. He shouldn't be anywhere near our starting 11.

[Google Bot 3,298]

Sadly, this was my concern pre-season when we were placing priority on physicality.  It's ok when you've got your tails up, squad is fit and you can be applying the press to force a turnover in play when you're the aggressors.

However, It's not ok when you're unable to buy yourself time on the ball outside of nervously knocking the ball around between two CBs and the keeper when the opponent is the aggressor. 

We struggle with basic passing, and another factor is that our off the ball movement is shocking too - Onel really is pitiful in both those departments, and he's not the only one either.  If I was Knapper, after watching a few games live, i'd really be questioning the coaching at the club at this point as what's seen on field is way below standard.

I don't know if it's lack of ability, nerves or confidence issues amongst the squad, either way it's inexcusable to be earning 10's of thousands a week, have access to all those facilities, all those hours of training, tactical and mental coaching and still kick the ball straight out of play several times a match.

What makes this worse is that despite the priority placed on physicality, we're not even fitter than most opponents we face each week, I swear that we're easily worn down due to the inability to retain the ball that it affects us mentally, you can see the drop off in games where we just appear to be zapped of energy as momentum shifts, it's in those moments where a bit more class is required.

[canarybubbles 1,925]

7 hours ago, Petriix said:

We simply lack the required passing ability to perform at this level. There's literally no point in Hernandez being on the pitch because he can't ever play a successful attacking pass. We can't hit teams on the break because we can't play the two or three quick passes to cut teams open. There's been so much emphasis on physical attributes and workrate, they entirely forgot to sign players who can actually kick the ball in the right direction. This squad is going nowhere until we find a way to get some skillful players into the midfield.

I agree with almost everything you say, but I'd point out that we do have one very skillful player in midfield - Sara - although even he is getting flakier by the week. But we can't even manage to successfully build our team around him.

The Dad's Army approach has failed completely. The rationale for it was that it would make us stronger mentally - we're weaker. God knows what we do because we are now stuck with a load of slow, ponderous players on relatively high wages who we won't be able to shift. Webber's final gift to the club.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

This thread is correct. Our fans have been banging on for years about 'physicality' and 'strength' etc and after thr first Premier League season it seems the board bought into this... BUT it is no good having a team of good athletes if they can't play, just like you can't have a team of technical players if there is no physical presence. Ultimately its about getting the balance and at the moment we desperately need players who can put their foot on the ball, pass and move and that have a bit of in-game intelligence.

Stacey, Duffy, Gibson, McLean, Hernandez, Fassnacht, Barnes, Idah are all either big, strong, fast or fit but (maybe Barnes aside) they're all awful footballers.

[Bradwell canary 109]

On yesterday display I would not ask any of them to pass the salt, as they would pass it to anyone but me.

[hogesar 9,711]

11 hours ago, Petriix said:

We simply lack the required passing ability to perform at this level. There's literally no point in Hernandez being on the pitch because he can't ever play a successful attacking pass. We can't hit teams on the break because we can't play the two or three quick passes to cut teams open. There's been so much emphasis on physical attributes and workrate, they entirely forgot to sign players who can actually kick the ball in the right direction. This squad is going nowhere until we find a way to get some skillful players into the midfield.

Of course you're correct, but we could at least be slightly better on the ball if Nunez and / or Gibbs were on the pitch. I'm not saying they're excellent but they can pass.

At 2-0 up, a bit fortuitously, and Hwang going off, bringing on a Gibbs or Nunez over an unfit Barnes seemed the obvious option to help us take a bit more care with the ball.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,762]

1 hour ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

This thread is correct. Our fans have been banging on for years about 'physicality' and 'strength' etc and after thr first Premier League season it seems the board bought into this... BUT it is no good having a team of good athletes if they can't play, just like you can't have a team of technical players if there is no physical presence. Ultimately its about getting the balance and at the moment we desperately need players who can put their foot on the ball, pass and move and that have a bit of in-game intelligence.

Stacey, Duffy, Gibson, McLean, Hernandez, Fassnacht, Barnes, Idah are all either big, strong, fast or fit but (maybe Barnes aside) they're all awful footballers.

I think part of the issue is none of our players look agile nevermind fit. Said the same at QPR when it seemed like QPR just seemed so much fitter and stronger than us and clearly had more hunger for the ball while our team looked like they were just huffing and puffing and looking like they had already been playing for two hours.

 

I'm not sure what's going on behind the scenes but I do worry about training given half our players are injured, others are pulling up injured and the other half of our squad look about twice their age and just seem to lack any stamina or real fitness

[Mason 47 1,391]

I'm inclined to agree, however I also think it comes back to the base system. I was saying to a friend last night that it's amazing we can have 11 players in our own half but still such massive distances in between them.

A player like Fassnacht, who is a well-respected Swiss international, doesn't just become crap overnight. But playing him as a winger, which he doesn't seem to be, isolated against 2-3 defenders is going to severely reduce his usefulness to us. Hernandez, too, has his uses but if he's being relied on as a primary player in our build-up then it's bad for both us and the player.

[Petriix 2,847]

3 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

I agree with almost everything you say, but I'd point out that we do have one very skillful player in midfield - Sara - although even he is getting flakier by the week. But we can't even manage to successfully build our team around him.

The problem with Sara is his off the ball work. I think he's our best player, but he is positionally poor and lacks defensive awareness. He was tracking the Watford player who scored their first goal and put in a very half-hearted attempt to block the shot where any decent midfielder would be throwing their body in the way. 

I don't think we can carry a player like that without serious defensive cover. Either play him at 10 behind the striker or put a proper defensive midfielder behind him. 

[BigFish 1,988]

11 hours ago, Petriix said:

We simply lack the required passing ability to perform at this level. There's literally no point in Hernandez being on the pitch because he can't ever play a successful attacking pass. We can't hit teams on the break because we can't play the two or three quick passes to cut teams open. There's been so much emphasis on physical attributes and workrate, they entirely forgot to sign players who can actually kick the ball in the right direction. This squad is going nowhere until we find a way to get some skillful players into the midfield.

The team isn't really physical or hard working either, and the press really isn't working. Attempting to do our attacking work in wide areas mean we are light centrally and yes our passing is poor.

[BigFish 1,988]

5 minutes ago, Petriix said:

The problem with Sara is his off the ball work. I think he's our best player, but he is positionally poor and lacks defensive awareness. He was tracking the Watford player who scored their first goal and put in a very half-hearted attempt to block the shot where any decent midfielder would be throwing their body in the way. 

I don't think we can carry a player like that without serious defensive cover. Either play him at 10 behind the striker or put a proper defensive midfielder behind him. 

Broadly true, however the problem with Sara is that he does his best attacking work deep, or arriving late - he isn't really a 10. I think Wagner's idea was that one, or both,  of the false 9s would drop to help him out but while Sarge & Barnes have been out that hasn't been happening.

[Petriix 2,847]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Broadly true, however the problem with Sara is that he does his best attacking work deep, or arriving late - he isn't really a 10. I think Wagner's idea was that one, or both,  of the false 9s would drop to help him out but while Sarge & Barnes have been out that hasn't been happening.

A 10 can drop deep and generally has more space (than an 8 ) when doing so. Sara is more of a Modric than a Rice/Skipp etc. so ideally shouldn't be playing as a 6.

The main issue, however, is playing wingers who are so poor that only 1 out of every 10 touches results in a completed pass. We need players who can reliably turn openings into chances. Sara is pretty good at that but he's pretty much the only one, especially while Rowe is out. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,762]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

The problem with Sara is his off the ball work. I think he's our best player, but he is positionally poor and lacks defensive awareness. He was tracking the Watford player who scored their first goal and put in a very half-hearted attempt to block the shot where any decent midfielder would be throwing their body in the way. 

I don't think we can carry a player like that without serious defensive cover. Either play him at 10 behind the striker or put a proper defensive midfielder behind him. 

Sara only plays well when he's further forward. Thats when he gets his goals and assists. Why Wagner is convinced he's a defensive midfielder when he's not I have no idea

 

He rather Marco Steipermann and I really feel he should play the same kind of role

[Jim Smith 2,333]

This team is capable of passing (apart from perhaps Onel) pretty well, they are just not set up to do it and play that way. In preseason we were playing Gibbs in the deeper role and he was bossing games. I don’t understand why every time he’s played since it’s been as a second striker. 
 

You can’t implement an effective passing game when you are sticking 9 men behind the ball through schoolboy tactics to try and tighten up the defence. 

[Jim Smith 2,333]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

The problem with Sara is his off the ball work. I think he's our best player, but he is positionally poor and lacks defensive awareness. He was tracking the Watford player who scored their first goal and put in a very half-hearted attempt to block the shot where any decent midfielder would be throwing their body in the way. 

I don't think we can carry a player like that without serious defensive cover. Either play him at 10 behind the striker or put a proper defensive midfielder behind him. 

 

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

The problem with Sara is his off the ball work. I think he's our best player, but he is positionally poor and lacks defensive awareness. He was tracking the Watford player who scored their first goal and put in a very half-hearted attempt to block the shot where any decent midfielder would be throwing their body in the way. 

I don't think we can carry a player like that without serious defensive cover. Either play him at 10 behind the striker or put a proper defensive midfielder behind him. 

It’s been obvious for some time he needs to play in the advanced role but for some reason even when Wagner plays Nunez or Gibbs he plays them as the more attacking midfielder. It’s truly bizarre. 

[norfolkngood 1,087]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Of course you're correct, but we could at least be slightly better on the ball if Nunez and / or Gibbs were on the pitch. I'm not saying they're excellent but they can pass.

At 2-0 up, a bit fortuitously, and Hwang going off, bringing on a Gibbs or Nunez over an unfit Barnes seemed the obvious option to help us take a bit more care with the ball.

100 % Hog

if Gibbs had come on sat in midfield and started passing it about nothing fantastic little short balls between the midfield gaining confidence and keeping the ball  and killed the game slowed it all down 

Making Watford chase the ball 

[hogesar 9,711]

18 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

100 % Hog

if Gibbs had come on sat in midfield and started passing it about nothing fantastic little short balls between the midfield gaining confidence and keeping the ball  and killed the game slowed it all down 

Making Watford chase the ball 

Yep, instead it's another 3 goals conceded which is unacceptable.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,058]

7 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

I think part of the issue is none of our players look agile nevermind fit. Said the same at QPR when it seemed like QPR just seemed so much fitter and stronger than us and clearly had more hunger for the ball while our team looked like they were just huffing and puffing and looking like they had already been playing for two hours.

 

I'm not sure what's going on behind the scenes but I do worry about training given half our players are injured, others are pulling up injured and the other half of our squad look about twice their age and just seem to lack any stamina or real fitness

The problem last night was keeping hold of the ball. In the Farke second title win, we used to get in front and then pass teams to death. Last night we kept giving it back to them. That is nothing to do with physicality and everything to do with ability.

[Mr Angry 1,570]

19 hours ago, Petriix said:

We simply lack the required passing ability to perform at this level. There's literally no point in Hernandez being on the pitch because he can't ever play a successful attacking pass. We can't hit teams on the break because we can't play the two or three quick passes to cut teams open. There's been so much emphasis on physical attributes and workrate, they entirely forgot to sign players who can actually kick the ball in the right direction. This squad is going nowhere until we find a way to get some skillful players into the midfield.

Not sure I agree with this entirely-some of the passing in our first few games this season was almost up there with the Farke era-it was mentioned on here at the time. It all went downhill when Josh got injured unfortunately, which may be down to confidence.

[hogesar 9,711]

50 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

The problem last night was keeping hold of the ball. In the Farke second title win, we used to get in front and then pass teams to death. Last night we kept giving it back to them. That is nothing to do with physicality and everything to do with ability.

100% - we were a little lucky to be 2-0 up but we were often lucky or just had one bit of crazy quality from an Emi that put us in front during a game. The huge difference was an ability to retain the ball - we didn't even have the overall shape to make that possible, and then of course compounded by players who aren't comfortable playing that way.

[Sufyellow 222]

21 hours ago, Petriix said:

We simply lack the required passing ability to perform at this level. There's literally no point in Hernandez being on the pitch because he can't ever play a successful attacking pass. We can't hit teams on the break because we can't play the two or three quick passes to cut teams open. There's been so much emphasis on physical attributes and workrate, they entirely forgot to sign players who can actually kick the ball in the right direction. This squad is going nowhere until we find a way to get some skillful players into the midfield.

We used to have a brilliant coach,  who got the players to control the ball and pass into space knowing that his team mate would be there . Everyone improved under him and his coaching Team.  Unfortunately a few thought they were bigger than the team and had to move on. The players were mainly average but the team was the best in the championship,  twice. I wonder what happened to those coaches 

[RobJames 883]

" you can be applying the press to force a turnover in play when you're the aggressors. "

That is pretty meaningless in the context of football. It may mean something in rugby, though.

You risk losing the ball whem there is no one to pass to - something that is all too apparent in our style of play. Time and time again our player get the ball and there was no one 'free' to pass to.  Wagners instructions (as they must have been) to hoove it out of defence was a recognition of this failing. Whereas, when the opposition bring the ball out of defence they pretty much always have a couple of passing options, to which the dimwits will bleat about 'passes completed'.

We all too often have a midfield enthralled to 'ball watching'. Jogging along 10 yards away then looking mystified that the pass has gone to an unmarked player. Never mind as long as we keep an eye on the ball it is bound to reach us at some point, seems to be the mantra

You don't need vacuous clichés, you just need to watch the game. The opposition are more mobile, ie they move into space and conversely close us down' when we have the ball. Things can go wrong in any game. A dodgy decision, a lucky strike etc, but this failing was the theme that came across talking to two ex players today. And has been the constant, throughout Wagners time here.

All is not lost, if the club takes the necessary action. Lambert came in Sept 2009 and with very few changes turned a team who had been thumped 7-1 at home to lowly Colchester into title chasers within a couple of months Wagner had a purple patch at H'field, and has done nothing since.  Much as Webber I suspect. Under lambert (Culverhouse ?) we could change the team, and with 10 mins to go, blow the bugle and charge...... and snatch victory. Wagners only thing in his favour is that he can deliver a post match interview oblivious to the carnage he has caused

[Monty13 2,239]

 

14 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

I agree with almost everything you say, but I'd point out that we do have one very skillful player in midfield - Sara - although even he is getting flakier by the week. But we can't even manage to successfully build our team around him.

The Dad's Army approach has failed completely. The rationale for it was that it would make us stronger mentally - we're weaker. God knows what we do because we are now stuck with a load of slow, ponderous players on relatively high wages who we won't be able to shift. Webber's final gift to the club.

Sara is a great player but I don’t think he’s the type of player that just gets his foot on the ball and makes us tick in the way a Hoolahan did for years or Maddison or an Emi. I think he needs that player around him just as much as the others.

I’ve come to hate Wagner’s philosophy and style personally. As much as I quite like Barnes I think 442 isn’t us and I’d just like to see a decent ball playing 10 again and decent AMs rather than poor wingers.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Monty13

[BigFish 1,988]

21 hours ago, Petriix said:

A 10 can drop deep and generally has more space (than an 8 ) when doing so. Sara is more of a Modric than a Rice/Skipp etc. so ideally shouldn't be playing as a 6.

The main issue, however, is playing wingers who are so poor that only 1 out of every 10 touches results in a completed pass. We need players who can reliably turn openings into chances. Sara is pretty good at that but he's pretty much the only one, especially while Rowe is out. 

In dropping Sara would end up playing exactly where he does now, but you hit two nails on the head here. Firstly, he is not a 6 and never will be. Secondly, the problem lies with our wide players (and the expansive way the team is set up to play wide).

[BigFish 1,988]

21 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

This team is capable of passing (apart from perhaps Onel) pretty well, they are just not set up to do it and play that way. In preseason we were playing Gibbs in the deeper role and he was bossing games. I don’t understand why every time he’s played since it’s been as a second striker. 
 

You can’t implement an effective passing game when you are sticking 9 men behind the ball through schoolboy tactics to try and tighten up the defence. 

 

21 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

 

It’s been obvious for some time he needs to play in the advanced role but for some reason even when Wagner plays Nunez or Gibbs he plays them as the more attacking midfielder. It’s truly bizarre. 

Two fallacies in rapid succession. Firstly, Gibbs bossed nothing, he looks lost when asked to play deeper. He is a good 8 though, and would be useful in a central 3. Secondly,  it is not true to say it is obvious that Sara should be advanced, he is playing in his best position. The issue is that the defensive work of a 6 is beyond him.

[Petriix 2,847]

5 minutes ago, BigFish said:

In dropping Sara would end up playing exactly where he does now

Which would be ideal because there would now be another midfielder doing the actual defensive work that he doesn't; that DM would also free McLean to play more box-to-box. Obviously this would be at the expense of having the second striker, but it's what most properly organised teams do in practice.

Let's face it: we have had a huge hole in central midfield all season (well, actually since Skipp went back to Spurs). We're conceding goals as a direct result of our flawed tactical setup. Sara is one of our few attacking threats so it kills two birds to (ostensibly) move him forwards: it plugs the hole he already leaves and it affords him more time in an attacking position from where he can create and score goals. Win-win! 

[BigFish 1,988]

26 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Which would be ideal because there would now be another midfielder doing the actual defensive work that he doesn't; that DM would also free McLean to play more box-to-box. Obviously this would be at the expense of having the second striker, but it's what most properly organised teams do in practice.

Let's face it: we have had a huge hole in central midfield all season (well, actually since Skipp went back to Spurs). We're conceding goals as a direct result of our flawed tactical setup. Sara is one of our few attacking threats so it kills two birds to (ostensibly) move him forwards: it plugs the hole he already leaves and it affords him more time in an attacking position from where he can create and score goals. Win-win! 

And on that, agree entirely

[jaberry2 554]

On 28/11/2023 at 21:38, Petriix said:

Hernandez has had 23 touches tonight but only attempted 6 passes. Of those, literally two of them have been successful. He shouldn't be anywhere near our starting 11.

I've been saying this for weeks. I am assuming he is only starting due to Sainz not being match fit, which he showed recently he seems to a little off starting. We will be far better when he starts.