Flawed tactics/formation

[Yellow Green Army 237]

Is anyone else concerned that our tactics are slightly flawed and we look so open in the central midfield area.
 

With the way Wagner wants us to play with 2 central midfielders, one continuously dropping off to receive the ball, often deeper than the CB’s this leaves so much space for the opposition to exploit when they turn the ball over. Along with the slow, pedestrian build up from the back by Gibson, Duffy and McClean this allows the other team so much time to get into shape and close us down turning the ball over.

Last night you could see that Leicester had highlighted the central midfield area as a weakness and were targeting this throughout. They were playing the ball about confidently along the back line, going back to the keeper who with one pass attacked us through the central areas.

The better teams are exploiting this and I would like to see an additional midfielder alongside McClean and Sara. Gibbs behind Barnes last night just did not work either.

[shefcanary 2,435]

YGA, did you not see our front press in the first half not engaging with their back line, deliberately? Wagner had identified that the midfield was an issue, and last night there was a change of approach. Most commentators commented about the game in the first half being a chess match (most fans will say it was boring) precisely because Norwich were protecting the midfield two. Gibbs and Barnes interchanging played that third central midfielder role well. They only became more aggressive with the press after falling behind. Until that point we had won that battle in midfield. The shame was that we gave the ball away when we were trying to build an attack that led to the goal. Sloppy mistakes cost us yesterday, not the line up.

[Google Bot 3,298]

There's pros and cons to every tactical approach though.  We've seen with this approach that we can dominate at high intensity for 20-25 minutes and create a flurry of chances.

With Duffy and Gibson in the centre it's clear that our defence is strongest dealing with a threat in front rather than from behind, so that perceived hole in midfield Is perhaps designed to encourage the opposition to occupy that space, and from that we have a set of triggers where we apply the press?  

Allowing teams that space can be used to slow them down and allow us to track the runners and cover off targets.  As we can have players drop back to cover, or those from deep to rush the opponent.

There's a lot of overlapping cover in this setup which I really like, both in attack and defence.  Coming up against a team like Leicester you're going to get exposed, but if we can set traps and disposes the rest then it's a good approach if you've got finishers and runners to exploit the turn around in advanced positions.  Our problem was losing possession, we keep doing it too - Even Gaby is a repeat offender.

I could be completely wrong, but that's how I see things.  My biggest concern with our central defence is if you've got someone attacking at speed through the middle an runners looking to get behind off that.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Google Bot

[Petriix 2,847]

This is a strange time to criticise the system when, aside from the mistake for the penalty, we were incredibly solid last night. I've been critical of the hole in midfield previously by bringing Gibbs in plugged that well.

Really all we are actually lacking is a decent striker. Sargent was shaping up well before his injury but we've otherwise not got anywhere near enough quality up front. Maybe Rowe should play through the middle? 

[shefcanary 2,435]

38 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Our problem was losing possession, we keep doing it too - Even Gaby is a repeat offender.

So's Kenny, and always has been. Okay for the championship, not for the EPL or for teams like Leicester.

Can Sara lose this bad habit? If he can then he may well be one of the best players we have ever had, but if not, he is going to be a frustrating watch.

[First Wazzock 902]

I couldn't quite believe how many times we gave the ball away, or just lumped the ball into space hoping someone was going to get it.

A good starting point for be for someone to hold one of our shirts up in training so we understand who are our players, we couldn't string 3 passes together at times.

[It's Character Forming 1,164]

2 hours ago, shefcanary said:

YGA, did you not see our front press in the first half not engaging with their back line, deliberately? Wagner had identified that the midfield was an issue, and last night there was a change of approach. Most commentators commented about the game in the first half being a chess match (most fans will say it was boring) precisely because Norwich were protecting the midfield two. Gibbs and Barnes interchanging played that third central midfielder role well. They only became more aggressive with the press after falling behind. Until that point we had won that battle in midfield. The shame was that we gave the ball away when we were trying to build an attack that led to the goal. Sloppy mistakes cost us yesterday, not the line up.

This is exactly how I saw it.  Aside from the penalty (which was self-inflicted) Leicester created virtually nothing in the first half, it was a chess game with neither side wanting to be caught out.  We were very careful in how we pressed them, you could see they wanted to draw our players forward and we deliberately held back and engaged with them carefully.  They were pretty similar in their approach, hence why Gunn was often taking his time before playing it out.

I thought we did well in playing out through their press and the patient approach often worked, personally I would have persevered with Rowe longer as he'd have thrived later on when space opened up.  A chess game is not so exciting for fans, but when two of the top teams in a division play each other it often happens.  Really it was one piece of stupidity towards the end of the half that was the difference between the teams.

[Hardhouse44 261]

The formation last night showed that the management were scared of Leicester. The line up showed that we don’t have the personnel capable of beating the best teams in this league and and the performance echoed that. Far too many 6 out of 10 performances from attacking and creative players. 
 

The choice of Barnes up front as the only recognised striker showed that the management has about as much faith in Idah as most of us fans do. We dont have any strikers capable of converting a half chance. Barnes, Idah and Kwang just don’t have killer instincts, the need very solid chances to score. Which brings us to those 6 out of 10 midfielders. Showing ok in little spats but far too many mistakes, too much lost possession and too little cutting edge. Nobody could pick a pass.

Truth is Leicester weren’t that great last night but they were better than us at playing their game, pity we didn’t have the guts or guile to play ours!

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

It's going to be a long old season if we're going to try and out think teams. We saw it 2nd half against Stoke too. I'd rather we stuck to how we started the season and look to outscore teams. We seem to have lost all momentum now, it can't all be down to Sargent can it?

Our best moments came 2nd half against Leicester when we actually worried their defence with Placheta's pace and upped the tempo. Leicester resorted to time wasting abd ****housery - especially that no 17.

Will be interesting to see if we give Plymouth that much respect.

 

[hogesar 9,707]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

This is a strange time to criticise the system when, aside from the mistake for the penalty, we were incredibly solid last night. I've been critical of the hole in midfield previously by bringing Gibbs in plugged that well.

Really all we are actually lacking is a decent striker. Sargent was shaping up well before his injury but we've otherwise not got anywhere near enough quality up front. Maybe Rowe should play through the middle? 

Yeah I don't know if the OP just didn't watch yesterday and weirdly chose today to complain.

[Yellow Green Army 237]

30 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yeah I don't know if the OP just didn't watch yesterday and weirdly chose today to complain.

Very much was at the match last night watching and why would I not have an opinion/comment the day after the game?

[hogesar 9,707]

48 minutes ago, Yellow Green Army said:

Very much was at the match last night watching and why would I not have an opinion/comment the day after the game?

Well primarily because the complaints in your OP were generally rectified tactically by Wagner in the game last night.

[Petriix 2,847]

2 hours ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Truth is Leicester weren’t that great last night but they were better than us at playing their game, pity we didn’t have the guts or guile to play ours!

Leicester "weren't great" because we completely nullified them for much of the game while also creating a large number of turnovers and half-chance. With a little more quality in the final third and some better officiating we'd have got a better result.

Southampton showed the futility of pushing higher up against Leicester, getting hammered on the break. Our tactics were spot on; sadly we're missing some better attacking options as the strikers we have aren't really good enough. 

[S_81 816]

Certainly concerned how deep Sara has to go to pick up the ball. He’s far more effective further up. In Barnes’ absence I’d like to see Sara nearer to a 10. 

[Conrad 171]

With a little more quality in.... 

But that's our problem, we don't possess the required level of quality so we try to make up for the shortfall with effort and endeavour. This will not work against those teams that try as hard and have more quality. That is not a criticism of our team, rather a recognition of where we are. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,824]

Regardless of whether the tactics are working or not (and personally I think they are), at least it's nice to actually have a clear plan this season. At no point did Smith ever convince me that he had one.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I am at odds with the OP. I think we sacrificed attack to make midfield more solid with Gibbs coming in for Adam. I prefer the four in midfield. And injuries have made it difficult to plan a second half when the coach would be xpecting to rest either Sara or Kenny. And Onel's injury came at the wrong time. He hasn't delivered but he is a great outball on the left side.

[Sufyellow 222]

5 hours ago, Petriix said:

This is a strange time to criticise the system when, aside from the mistake for the penalty, we were incredibly solid last night. I've been critical of the hole in midfield previously by bringing Gibbs in plugged that well.

Really all we are actually lacking is a decent striker. Sargent was shaping up well before his injury but we've otherwise not got anywhere near enough quality up front. Maybe Rowe should play through the middle? 

I would play Rowe there with idah if barnes is out , and then an attacking player wide. We need 2 attacking players upfront to open up space, Rowe misses Sargent for this. We have seen how Rowe will attack the ball as well. 

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

6 hours ago, shefcanary said:

 Most commentators commented about the game in the first half being a chess match (most fans will say it was boring)

Ha that's exactly how I described it, football tactical chess 

Personally I loved it and it shows that Wagner really gets it, perhaps the best tactician we have had in modern history?

Don't let a stronger Leicester team and flattering score line deceive.

We gave them a lot of trouble and 2 inches of cross bar saved them the points.

Also as a Leicester supporting mate of mine commented, 3 of Thier 5 subs had prem starts last year.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Nexus_Canary

[Sufyellow 222]

23 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Regardless of whether the tactics are working or not (and personally I think they are), at least it's nice to actually have a clear plan this season. At no point did Smith ever convince me that he had one.

Yep , said that on the way out, we lost because they had better players and luck , but I was happy to see we actually had a team again who had a plan. 

[It's Character Forming 1,164]

13 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Regardless of whether the tactics are working or not (and personally I think they are), at least it's nice to actually have a clear plan this season. At no point did Smith ever convince me that he had one.

I think Smith's plan was to leave it to the players to sort it out themselves....

[sgncfc 1,233]

Leicester changed their starting line up precisely because their manager recognised we would prepare for the way they played against Southampton. Wagner got it half right in the first half, with the extra man in midfield and not pressing their keeper. But Leicester switched to feeding their flanks rather than coming through the middle - McAteer and Mavididi were their only two danger men in the first half, their midfield was nullified completely. Stacey and Giannoulis generally still coped well, even with a lack of cover, especially from Rowe, until that one error by Fassnacht which resulted from Stacey losing the ball higher up the pitch.

The second half was a different tactical battle because we were behind. If we had held them to 0-0 at half time I doubt Wagner would have changed anything. Leicester could still have brought on their 5 PL quality subs though, and would have done to try to win the game, which they probably still would have done. I think they just have better players and more of them. I was reminded of a game against Wolves in their promotion season which was very similar - they seemed to have all the luck. It's funny how often better players and teams seem to have all the luck......

[Yellow Green Army 237]

I got slated for posting this topic after the Leicester game but tactics are flawed and we have been found out big time. What will Wagner do now? Stuck or twist.

[Petriix 2,847]

36 minutes ago, Yellow Green Army said:

I got slated for posting this topic after the Leicester game but tactics are flawed and we have been found out big time. What will Wagner do now? Stuck or twist.

Honestly, do you think there were many similarities between the two games?

We showed Leicester due respect and actually played diligently, doing the basics and working hard. We conceded after a single mistake but then applied real pressure and gave a decent account of ourselves in the second half before conceding again on the break. 

Against Plymouth we played with extreme arrogance as if we could just throw everyone forwards and we'd score at will. We left huge holes and got exposed repeatedly because we didn't do the basics.

We'd have been far better if we'd approached Plymouth with the same caution we applied for Leicester. I can't see much in common between the two games. 

[vos 155]

Whilst I obviously did not see much of the Plymouth game but assuming the structure of the midfield remained the same, then that is our big weakness. Kenny is more or less playing very deep leaving Sara on his own. In theory Rowe and Fassnacht are part of the attacking midfield but they are sticking out wide and making little contribution. So any opposing quick breaks are leaving us very exposed down the middle. Interestingly Ipswich played at Southampton the other night and deployed four midfielders spread across the pitch and they barely ventured forward. And the end result, apart from a gift to the Town,  neither side ever looked like scoring. I agree, in our case,  flawed tactics !!!

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,789]

Either of the below wouldve resulted in a better result than we got and not left us so open..

                   Gunn

Stacey   Duffy Gibson Giannoulis

               Forshaw  McLean

   Fassnacht   Sara     Rowe

                      Idah

Or...

                   Gunn

           Duffy Baath  Gibson

Stacey    Forshaw  McLean    Giannoulis

                      Sara

                Idah     Hwang

To be fair he did revert to option  a) at half time when it was too late

...what Wagner started with on Saturday was about the worst thing he could have done