The Offside Rule

[Ulfotto 644]

I have no qualms about the pass it’s level which is ok maybe if VAR is about we might get away with it. It’s the position he finds himself in because he ran beyond the two defenders but didn’t receive the ball he then finds himself all alone between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Roll forward    and he is unmarked for a tap in. Skimming the rules it seems that is ok. 

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

[Jim Smith 2,349]

24 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

i still don't understand. He's miles offside at every moment from 1.40 onwards

 

He’s offside (at least unless he’s judged to be behind the ball when the final pass is made) but it only becomes an offence if you are active or interfering with play. I assume the officials took the view that he wasn’t earlier in the move as the ball didn’t get played to him, he didn’t challenge for it and he didn’t influence/interfere with the keeper. 
 

they will then be treating the pass across as a new phase of play and I assume judged he was not in front of the ball so not offside.

Which is absolutely how Barnes goal at Saints should have been treated.

Here though I do think he was fractionally ahead of the ball when it was passed so still think it’s offside. 

 

 

[Jim Smith 2,349]

1 minute ago, Ulfotto said:

I have no qualms about the pass it’s level which is ok maybe if VAR is about we might get away with it. It’s the position he finds himself in because he ran beyond the two defenders but didn’t receive the ball he then finds himself all alone between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Roll forward    and he is unmarked for a tap in. Skimming the rules it seems that is ok. 

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

Yes it is. Some might also remember that goal Arsenal scored against us a couple of years ago where Max left their player on the goal line to play him offside and he ended up tapping it in after a fluke deflected cross and it was allowed.

Of course when we do it and Barnes scores the (fundamentally wrong) decision goes against us because we just seem to get screwed by officials at every opportunity. 

 

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The Dimi one was a definite penalty. Theirs was a penalty. Their goal I think was offside, if you look from the side angle the player is in front of Vardy slightly and ours worth noting he was also coming back from being further in front of him, not running forward

With respect, that's irrelevant. He wasn't active in the first phase of play, so the only decision is his position relative to the ball at the point at which it's played. If there's doubt, the advantage goes with the attacker. And that's the way the laws should be, in my opinion.

[Jim Smith 2,349]

4 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

With respect, that's irrelevant. He wasn't active in the first phase of play, so the only decision is his position relative to the ball at the point at which it's played. If there's doubt, the advantage goes with the attacker. And that's the way the laws should be, in my opinion.

Yes but it’s relevant in terms of the frames on the offside or it would be if we had VAR! 

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes but it’s relevant in terms of the frames on the offside or it would be if we had VAR! 

Therefore it's not relevant, because we don't have VAR...

[Jim Smith 2,349]

1 minute ago, Feedthewolf said:

Therefore it's not relevant, because we don't have VAR...

Yes I know, I’m just saying, as people are looking at still pictures from the video footage to try and judge it, that it’s relevant he was moving backwards not running onto the ball at pace. I think the VAR analysis has shown that one frame difference can see a player move quite a distance when they are running!

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes I know, I’m just saying, as people are looking at still pictures from the video footage to try and judge it, that it’s relevant he was moving backwards not running onto the ball at pace. I think the VAR analysis has shown that one frame difference can see a player move quite a distance when they are running!

And as I'm saying, if it's that difficult to be certain even with video footage, the assistant was correct to allow the goal. Where there is no VAR, the advantage should always go with the attacking team. I'd much rather it was that way than waiting two minutes for a ludicrous fag-paper-thin offside decision like Pukki's against Tottenham (which I'm still sore about, in case you couldn't tell!).

[Jim Smith 2,349]

2 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

And as I'm saying, if it's that difficult to be certain even with video footage, the assistant was correct to allow the goal. Where there is no VAR, the advantage should always go with the attacking team. I'd much rather it was that way than waiting two minutes for a ludicrous fag-paper-thin offside decision like Pukki's against Tottenham (which I'm still sore about, in case you couldn't tell!).

Don’t disagree. But these things don’t often seem to go to our advantage! Anyway the second goal is a bit irrelevant, we got caught on the break, chasing the game. If he gives that penalty then doubt we would have been caught out like that. 

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

Don’t disagree. But these things don’t often seem to go to our advantage! Anyway the second goal is a bit irrelevant, we got caught on the break, chasing the game. If he gives that penalty then doubt we would have been caught out like that. 

Still not seen a replay of the Dimi penalty shout, so will reserve judgement on that. What about the Idah one off the ball in the second half? Any Barclay-dwellers get a good close-up of that?

Ask any team/fan and they'll think that decisions tend to go against them. In any game of football there are probably going to be 30/40 contentious or 50/50 decisions, and fans will always keep a mental 'rap sheet' of the ones that go against them. That's why refereeing is such a thankless/impossible task.

[Ulfotto 644]

45 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

With respect, that's irrelevant. He wasn't active in the first phase of play, so the only decision is his position relative to the ball at the point at which it's played. If there's doubt, the advantage goes with the attacker. And that's the way the laws should be, in my opinion.

Agreed Hence my slightly tongue in cheek point that attacking players might as well never leave the opponent box.

[shefcanary 2,496]

1 hour ago, Feedthewolf said:

I've only seen the limited Sky highlights (as well as being at the match), but as a ref myself I'd say both decisions were probably correct. Leicester penalty was nailed on, clear push from behind.

As for the offside, looking at the distance of the ball and of McAteer from the six-yard line, it's very tight. Advantage should go with the attacking team as per the laws. With VAR, his head might have been offside but I respect the assistant giving the advantage to the attack.

As for our penalty shouts, I didn't see what happened with Idah off the ball in the second half. As for the tackle on Dimi, though, I saw it but couldn't be sure whether or not the Leicester player got the ball.

Hey FTW, can you explain the phase rule in offside for me? I believe the pass to Dewsbury-Hall and his subsequent pass to MacAtear were all part of the same phase. Irregardless of whether MacAtear was offside for the second pass, at the beginning of that phase he was offside! I would agree it could be debated he was onside if it was TWO phases, but here it was definitely only ONE. I'm lost. Help.

[shefcanary 2,496]

50 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

What about the Idah one off the ball in the second half?

It was a foul, but was in the D, not in the box.

[TIL 1010 4,815]

All this was he, wasn't he offside nonsense is irrelevant as it is xg that matters. Football played on grass is sooooo yesterday because it is played on paper these days.

Edited September 21, 2023 by TIL 1010

[Feedthewolf 4,901]

12 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Hey FTW, can you explain the phase rule in offside for me? I believe the pass to Dewsbury-Hall and his subsequent pass to MacAtear were all part of the same phase. Irregardless of whether MacAtear was offside for the second pass, at the beginning of that phase he was offside! I would agree it could be debated he was onside if it was TWO phases, but here it was definitely only ONE. I'm lost. Help.

As soon as the pass is played to Dewsbury-Hall, a new phase of play begins. At the point the pass was played to Dewsbury-Hall, McAteer was in an offside position but not interfering with play. Then, when Dewsbury-Hall squares it, McAteer is marginal. McAteer's position up to that final square ball is irrelevant.

It's one of those 'the law is an a$$' things. As far as I'm concerned, he's gained an advantage by being ahead of the defensive line when the initial ball is played, so should still be considered offside when the second ball is played. But IFAB don't see it that way, sadly...

Edited September 21, 2023 by Feedthewolf
Not allowed to say a$$, even though it's basically a donkey.

[Ken Hairy 3,782]

I don't want VAR so if that was offside then so be it, just move on. Personally though I'd have given it as level too.

I agree with Mason, actually thought the officials got most things right last night, no complaints about any of our yellows, a few of them were just silly on our behalf and the penalty was stonewall.

Put it behind us, stop moaning and onto Plymouth. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The only relevant point is when Dewsbury Hall finally passed to McAteer, was McAteer in an offside position. And I cannot say yes or know. So it is up to the referee's assistant and he said onside. 

We know the standard of refereeing in all sport is not as good as it should and I blame it a bit on laziness in the EPL because of VAR, and apparent attempt not to be controversial.

But the goal last night has only become controversial with us. And that is because we lost.

[Yobocop 1,105]

Didn’t see any replays but looked a clear offside to me 

we move on 

[lake district canary 4,552]

1 hour ago, Feedthewolf said:

As soon as the pass is played to Dewsbury-Hall, a new phase of play begins. At the point the pass was played to Dewsbury-Hall, McAteer was in an offside position but not interfering with play. Then, when Dewsbury-Hall squares it, McAteer is marginal. McAteer's position up to that final square ball is irrelevant.

It's one of those 'the law is an a$$' things. As far as I'm concerned, he's gained an advantage by being ahead of the defensive line when the initial ball is played, so should still be considered offside when the second ball is played. But IFAB don't see it that way, sadly...

Thanks for this answer. I'm fairly certain he was in an onside position when the final pass was made, but that he was well offside up to almost the last second is also true. The law is indeed an @ss

Edited September 21, 2023 by lake district canary

[TheRock 171]

 

Very unlucky as this square pass would likely be given offside by VAR as the player's head/torso is probably marginally ahead of the ball. In real time its a total coin flip for the Linesman to give it as on/off. The benefit of doubt has to be given to the attacking team.

 

Nevertheless this decision was not anot a huge detriment to us as the game had almost gone (unlike the decsions that went against us at Southampthon away!). Norwich were second best most of the match.

Edited September 21, 2023 by TheRock

[Matt Juler 159]

My very primitive VAR would have him marginally onside.  The two red and two purple lengths are the same, so that counter the angle of the image.

[ron obvious 1,517]

I think I've located the source of my confusion. There seem to be 2 contradictory statements about being offside. From wiki:

"It is a common misconception that the ball must be played forward for an offside offence to be committed. This is incorrect however, as an offside offence is related to the position of the player in relation to the last two opponents, the ball and the opponent's goal line rather than the direction the ball is played. If the player is closer to the opponent's goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent when it is played by a team mate, she or he is in an offside position."

However

 

• "If the player is behind the ball when it is played, he or she cannot be offside."

So I suppose that is the reason for the decision. Just seems very odd - I think it's just a very rare situation.

[SteveN8458 64]

2 hours ago, Matt Juler said:

My very primitive VAR would have him marginally onside.  The two red and two purple lengths are the same, so that counter the angle of the image.

What is missing from this image is a vertical line rising from the middle yellow line infront of the recipient of the pass.

As in Pukki's case his head (armpit) is in an offside position (IMO)

[hogesar 9,776]

I think it's close enough to afford the linesman a bit of leniency. I would generally rather those goals stand than be ruled out for inches. 

[essex canary 508]

7 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think it's close enough to afford the linesman a bit of leniency. I would generally rather those goals stand than be ruled out for inches. 

Agreed and the fundamental issue is that he is behind the ball.

[K Lo 233]

12 hours ago, TheRock said:

 

Very unlucky as this square pass would likely be given offside by VAR as the player's head/torso is probably marginally ahead of the ball. In real time its a total coin flip for the Linesman to give it as on/off. The benefit of doubt has to be given to the attacking team.

 

Nevertheless this decision was not anot a huge detriment to us as the game had almost gone (unlike the decsions that went against us at Southampthon away!). Norwich were second best most of the match.

What was almost as frustrating was the the two Norwich players just jogged towards the goal and watch Leicester score.
Maybe they were out of steam by then.
Still frustrating nonetheless, as was the silly penalty given away.

[mastoola 185]

16 hours ago, Conrad said:

Thank God for someone with sense. Even Radio Norfolk, after the event, said that TV replays showed him to be onside. I was at the match so cannot comment.

but he came back from an offside position

[mastoola 185]

13 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

The only relevant point is when Dewsbury Hall finally passed to McAteer, was McAteer in an offside position. And I cannot say yes or know. So it is up to the referee's assistant and he said onside. 

We know the standard of refereeing in all sport is not as good as it should and I blame it a bit on laziness in the EPL because of VAR, and apparent attempt not to be controversial.

But the goal last night has only become controversial with us. And that is because we lost.

i dont think it is   he came back from an offside position and scored

[Conrad 179]

7 hours ago, mastoola said:

but he came back from an offside position

Doesn't matter. 2nd phase of play. Therefore not offside. Blame the rules, not the officials. 

[TheRock 171]

On 21/09/2023 at 23:57, mastoola said:

but he came back from an offside position

The best way to visualise it is demonstrated in the IFAB rules. look at the second graphic on Page 205:

https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-2023-24?l=en