Titanic tourist sub goes missing

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Your pretense that all is well in South Africa is on a par with climate change denial in its sheer absurdity.

"I'm not arguing that South Africa and the ANC are not rife with corruption"

"I've no doubt there are examples where positive discrimination has caused inefficiencies in South African infrastructure and in their economy"

"You then bleated on about how modern South Africa is corrupt and borderline basket case. That's arguably correct"

Imagine reading all that, and then saying the above quote to the person who said it all. Unbelievably stupid.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,554]

6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

"I'm not arguing that South Africa and the ANC are not rife with corruption"

"I've no doubt there are examples where positive discrimination has caused inefficiencies in South African infrastructure and in their economy"

"You then bleated on about how modern South Africa is corrupt and borderline basket case. That's arguably correct"

Imagine reading all that, and then saying the above quote to the person who said it all. Unbelievably stupid.

In that case, it's hard to figure out what's left that you're calling 'drivel' or what facts I'm missing in my own opinion.

It seems to me you've conceded just about every point I made while still carrying on like I've missed something profoundly obvious that negates all this. If there is something, I'm all ears.

Edited June 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Bort 34]

56 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Taking proportion of the day that people have it working now into account, that's less than 50% now.

So if the UK has had always on electricity in 2007, and had steadily increased daily power cuts to the current day to the extent electricity was off for as much as 12 hours a day, you'd think that was all fine and dandy then?

Don't ever complain about anything ever again.

 

You're quoting the most extreme load shedding schedule they plan for (Stage 8, 50% without power) as the typical situation. That's not the case.

As far as I can see, the highest stage they've ever had to actually implement is 6 (37% without power), and they're recently hovering between 0% shedding and Stage 3 (19%).

Don't get me wrong, the situation isn't good, but it's also clearly not as bad as 30 years ago in absolute terms (i.e. the country is not falling apart compared to during apartheid, which is your apparent argument).

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

In that case, it's hard to figure out what's left that you're calling 'drivel' or what facts I'm missing in my own opinion.

It seems to me you've conceded just about every point I made while still carrying on like I've missed something profoundly obvious that negates all this. If there is something, I'm all ears.

Your pretty clear inference that post-apartheid South Africa would be some wonderful, corrupt-free, energy-rich utopia if it wasn't for positive discrimination. 

Apartheid South Africa was abysmally corrupt. As Bort has shown you, in Apartheid South Africa millions of people who are now pissed off at blackouts didn't have any electricity at all when the whites were running the show. By several metrics South Africa has made massive strides since 1994. Again, Bort quoted you plenty of these. As I have shown you, Siemens were heavily involved in the South African Navy long before your Uncle's white colleagues were given their generous redundancies. You love a good a multi-national bloc, South Africa were invited to one of the biggest in 2010 in BRICS, whose collective GDP is forecast to overtake the G7 in just 12 years.

You want it to be a basket-case, or be seen as a basket-case, but the facts don't suggest that at all. I'm not sure why you're refusing to see that; I hope it is just stupidity and not anything more sinister.

And by the way, I generally can't stand South Africa. Hate them at sports, the most unpleasant boss I've ever worked for was a South African and I have a family friend whose daughter and son-in-law ran a farm in the country and, as white landowners, were targeted by a racist gang that shot dead the son-in-law. Their daughter was 11 or 12 at the time. Awful place. But still, immeasurably better and more successful than Apartheid South Africa, even if the trains ran on time.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,554]

23 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Your pretty clear inference that post-apartheid South Africa would be some wonderful, corrupt-free, energy-rich utopia if it wasn't for positive discrimination. 

Apartheid South Africa was abysmally corrupt. As Bort has shown you, in Apartheid South Africa millions of people who are now pissed off at blackouts didn't have any electricity at all when the whites were running the show. By several metrics South Africa has made massive strides since 1994. Again, Bort quoted you plenty of these. As I have shown you, Siemens were heavily involved in the South African Navy long before your Uncle's white colleagues were given their generous redundancies. You love a good a multi-national bloc, South Africa were invited to one of the biggest in 2010 in BRICS, whose collective GDP is forecast to overtake the G7 in just 12 years.

You want it to be a basket-case, or be seen as a basket-case, but the facts don't suggest that at all. I'm not sure why you're refusing to see that; I hope it is just stupidity and not anything more sinister.

And by the way, I generally can't stand South Africa. Hate them at sports, the most unpleasant boss I've ever worked for was a South African and I have a family friend whose daughter and son-in-law ran a farm in the country and, as white landowners, were targeted by a racist gang that shot dead the son-in-law. Their daughter was 11 or 12 at the time. Awful place. But still, immeasurably better and more successful than Apartheid South Africa, even if the trains ran on time.

That's a rather extreme inference which is not remotely close to what I believe. Indeed, I find that more often or not arguments like this tend to be more about things I haven't said but people say I'm 'inferring' than what I actually say. In most circles, that's referred to as arguing with a straw man.

However, at the end of apartheid the black population of South Africa was not skilled or educated enough to take over the running of a developed economy; that actually agrees with one of your own statements; the policy to push the replacement of the skilled white work force at such a rapid rate has undoubtedly caused modem South Africa to be a far bigger mess than it might have been if the the time and thought had been put into actually making sure black people there had been taught the necessary skills before they actually took up jobs after the bulk of the white workers had been dispatched. It has failed for the same reason farming in Zimbabwe collapsed after Mugabe seized the farms from white land owners.

Edited June 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Anyone know what is likely to happen during an implosion? Does it have the same impact on a human as an explosion? Of course you still dead either way.

[Satriales 655]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Anyone know what is likely to happen during an implosion? Does it have the same impact on a human as an explosion? Of course you still dead either way.

It happened in 30 milliseconds, which is much quicker than it takes us to blink. Absolutely insane. Of course, nobody wants to die, but it's probably not a bad way to go, much better than a long drawn out suffering.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Off for lunch. Wouldn't say I'm peckish but I could down a sub right now.

[Satriales 655]

29 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Anyone know what is likely to happen during an implosion? Does it have the same impact on a human as an explosion? Of course you still dead either way.

Just saw this on Twitter:

Catastrophic Implosion of a submersible explained:

When a submarine hull collapses, it moves inward at about 1,500 miles per hour - that’s 2,200 feet per second.

The time required for complete collapse is 20 / 2,200 seconds = about 1 millisecond.

A human brain responds instinctually to stimulus at about 25 milliseconds. Human rational response (sense→reason→act) is at best 150 milliseconds.

The air inside a sub has a fairly high concentration of hydrocarbon vapors.

When the hull collapses it behaves like a very large piston on a very large Diesel engine.

The air auto-ignites and an explosion follows the initial rapid implosion. Large blobs of fat (that would be humans) incinerate and are turned to ash and dust quicker than you can blink your eye.

Info Source: Dave Corley, former Nuke sub officer

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 minutes ago, Satriales said:

Just saw this on Twitter:

Catastrophic Implosion of a submersible explained:

When a submarine hull collapses, it moves inward at about 1,500 miles per hour - that’s 2,200 feet per second.

The time required for complete collapse is 20 / 2,200 seconds = about 1 millisecond.

A human brain responds instinctually to stimulus at about 25 milliseconds. Human rational response (sense→reason→act) is at best 150 milliseconds.

The air inside a sub has a fairly high concentration of hydrocarbon vapors.

When the hull collapses it behaves like a very large piston on a very large Diesel engine.

The air auto-ignites and an explosion follows the initial rapid implosion. Large blobs of fat (that would be humans) incinerate and are turned to ash and dust quicker than you can blink your eye.

Info Source: Dave Corley, former Nuke sub officer

Wow. Well thankfully they wouldn't have known a thing.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

7 minutes ago, Satriales said:

Just saw this on Twitter:

Catastrophic Implosion of a submersible explained:

When a submarine hull collapses, it moves inward at about 1,500 miles per hour - that’s 2,200 feet per second.

The time required for complete collapse is 20 / 2,200 seconds = about 1 millisecond.

A human brain responds instinctually to stimulus at about 25 milliseconds. Human rational response (sense→reason→act) is at best 150 milliseconds.

The air inside a sub has a fairly high concentration of hydrocarbon vapors.

When the hull collapses it behaves like a very large piston on a very large Diesel engine.

The air auto-ignites and an explosion follows the initial rapid implosion. Large blobs of fat (that would be humans) incinerate and are turned to ash and dust quicker than you can blink your eye.

Info Source: Dave Corley, former Nuke sub officer

Found what looks like the original source on Quora. 


 

[ricardo 7,395]

Im not interested in the ghoulish details but happy to know they didnt suffer.

I have an innate fear of closed spaces and cannot imagine anyone paying a fortune to go down in that thing.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by ricardo

[Herman 9,780]

The CEO, Stockton Rush, is starting to get the press "rummaging through his bins."

[PurpleCanary 5,563]

I see James Cameron, who evidently has his sources in this field, is saying the warning signal in the craft must have gone off, because the weights were dumped to allow it start rising.

[dylanisabaddog 4,933]

8 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I see James Cameron, who evidently has his sources in this field, is saying the warning signal in the craft must have gone off, because the weights were dumped to allow it start rising.

Surely there is a link between the warning signal and the people on the surface? 

The Americans are now saying they picked up signs of an explosion at the time that contact was lost with the submarine 

[PurpleCanary 5,563]

3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Surely there is a link between the warning signal and the people on the surface? 

The Americans are now saying they picked up signs of an explosion at the time that contact was lost with the submarine 

I don't know the answer about a link. But Cameron said that he was told soon after it happened about the sound that was probably the implosion. And then I think it was yesterday added that he had been told the submersible had ditched its weights to try to resurface, so presumably some alarm had gone off to make them abort the voyage.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

On 22/06/2023 at 23:41, Bort said:

Just to provide some context to this assertion that South Africa is "falling to bits", as I can't help myself - their average life expectancy, literacy rate, HDI score, access to electricity and GDP per capita are all higher than any point pre-2010. The poverty rate is 10% lower than it was 30 years ago, and the homicide rate has halved over the same period.

There's an argument that some metrics have stagnated in the last 10 years or so (and unemployment is an issue), but "falling to bits" is a little hyperbolic.

Ireland was recently  ' rewired' electrically speaking after the damage of the 2018 storms.  The line crews were all white South Africans. Better pay, conditions, with the only  dangers being the dangers of the job.... they were v happy bunnies.

[Google Bot 3,278]

2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

And then I think it was yesterday added that he had been told the submersible had ditched its weights to try to resurface, so presumably some alarm had gone off to make them abort the voyage.

Connected people knew at the time - but they didn't want to make the news public without locating the Sub to confirm.  The co-founder of Ethereum posted what happened several days before it was confirmed, as he's involved in that rich crowd:

 

Bare in mind he posted that on the 20th.

What I read is that the sub had some kind of ultrasonic detectors around the hull, and that alert is what caused them to drop weights and attempt to return.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Google Bot

[littleyellowbirdie 2,554]

6 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Connected people knew at the time - but they didn't want to make the news public without locating the Sub to confirm.  The co-founder of Ethereum posted what happened several days before it was confirmed, as he's involved in that rich crowd:

 

Bare in mind he posted that on the 20th.

What I read is that the sub had some kind of ultrasonic detectors around the hull, and that alert is what caused them to drop weights and attempt to return.

That's a terrible indictment of journalism that a well-known figure can actually tweet that without any press making much of it and just going on press announcements from rescue parties. So the people on the mothership knew all along?

[Google Bot 3,278]

31 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So the people on the mothership knew all along?

Yeah, and most of the media would've known, too.. But they want to string out a story, of course.  Using reports based on the the Oxygen counting down, the knocking sound etc.  They knew that was all filler.

That's why all the questions after the coastguard announcement was about finding bodies/remains and such like - as it's more filler for them.

Truly awful really.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Google Bot

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

When the movie is made, they have to have a script that last for 3 days. That is how cynical this whole thing is.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,189]

People gambling on missing sub

Words fail me 😔

[littleyellowbirdie 2,554]

12 hours ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

People gambling on missing sub

Words fail me 😔

I'd love to know what proportion of those betting that they were already dead had links to the US Navy and US Coastguard given that they knew of the hydrophone record of an implosion well before anyone else.

Edited June 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[benchwarmer 625]

On 24/06/2023 at 16:37, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's a terrible indictment of journalism that a well-known figure can actually tweet that without any press making much of it and just going on press announcements from rescue parties. So the people on the mothership knew all along?

It's tantamount to fake news. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by benchwarmer

[Daz Sparks 1,154]

18 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

It's tantamount to fake news. 

I personally consume news from ANY source for what it is, which in almost all circumstances, is, incomplete, hurried and somewhat speculative whilst it's breaking. 

News stories tend to evolve as they are ebeing reported,  and the complete, indisputable truth only manifests later on, sometimes months or years later. The problem is, that by then, it has become old news, and is only relevant or interesting to a far smaller audience, the initial "crowd", if you like, has dispersed, leaving the aforementioned. 

If you look back on other stories, historically,  the truth by and large tends come out. 

Take this weekend's events in Russia, initial reports suggested a possible civil war, by tea time we had seen a minor insurrection,  followed by a deal and an "exile".

Give that  a week or 2 and more will inevitably come out. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,554]

58 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

It's tantamount to fake news. 

 

28 minutes ago, Daz Sparks said:

I personally consume news from ANY source for what it is, which in almost all circumstances, is, incomplete, hurried and somewhat speculative whilst it's breaking. 

News stories tend to evolve as they are ebeing reported,  and the complete, indisputable truth only manifests later on, sometimes months or years later. The problem is, that by then, it has become old news, and is only relevant or interesting to a far smaller audience, the initial "crowd", if you like, has dispersed, leaving the aforementioned. 

If you look back on other stories, historically,  the truth by and large tends come out. 

Take this weekend's events in Russia, initial reports suggested a possible civil war, by tea time we had seen a minor insurrection,  followed by a deal and an "exile".

Give that  a week or 2 and more will inevitably come out. 

For the most part, that tends to be my outlook as well. In this instance, I'm very unhappy that the Implosion sound at the Titanic site was recorded by a very credible source but the it was deliberately withheld while other information was being communicated. Then it seems clear that the surface ship has known there was trouble and ballast was being dumped to surface that wasn't communicated widely, simply that they'd lost contact.

Then there was the claim of banging on the hour and the half hour that gave strong reason to believe they were still alive. How can that be true given what we know now consistent with military submarine rescue protocol? Was there someone in the ocean running some sort of crazy hoax? Why was release of information about this sound considered fit for release while the earlier sound of the Implosion was concealed until after the event? There was clearly no national security issue or we wouldn't have found out about the sound after the event either.

Was the main motive to mislead would-be rescuers into believing the rescue mission had more point than just finding the debris? Who made money gambling online whether they were alive or dead? Did the online gambling industry work according to the information we were fed or did it know of the recorded Implosion?

 

[Barbe bleu 827]

9 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

For the most part, that tends to be my outlook as well. In this instance, I'm very unhappy that the Implosion sound at the Titanic site was recorded by a very credible source but the it was deliberately withheld while other information was being communicated. Then it seems clear that the surface ship has known there was trouble and ballast was being dumped to surface that wasn't communicated widely, simply that they'd lost contact.

Then there was the claim of banging on the hour and the half hour that gave strong reason to believe they were still alive. How can that be true given what we know now consistent with military submarine rescue protocol? Was there someone in the ocean running some sort of crazy hoax? Why was release of information about this sound considered fit for release while the earlier sound of the Implosion was concealed until after the event? There was clearly no national security issue or we wouldn't have found out about the sound after the event either.

Was the main motive to mislead would-be rescuers into believing the rescue mission had more point than just finding the debris? Who made money gambling online whether they were alive or dead? Did the online gambling industry work according to the information we were fed or did it know of the recorded Implosion?

 

My guess, if the talk of the implosion being heard is true is that they had a strong  suspicion that the craft had been destroyed but continued to look just in case they were wrong.

That we didn't find out about detection is probably a case of the US military not wanting to release intelligence without careful consideration mixed with a little bit of corporate lag.

I dont believe that there is any conspiracy here. Just a tragic incident

 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,189]

On 25/06/2023 at 07:17, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'd love to know what proportion of those betting that they were already dead had links to the US Navy and US Coastguard given that they knew of the hydrophone record of an implosion well before anyone else.

According to Mother Jones , the platform used, Polymarket, will accept bets on virtually any market. Which can be a little dangerous.

To be honest, I've never heard of Polymarket, or even Mother Jones before.

The traditional bookmakers that I am used to (UK shops & websites) tend to be more conservative. They are reluctant to take bets on things that they don't have a good knowledge of.

I'm sure many of us remember the "hole in one" golf betting, where the bookies had their pants pulled down, at least the ones that paid up.

Tha gamblers involved in the sub case seem to be pretty much detached from the emotion of the event. I wonder if any of them would feel the same if someone told them they had $100 @ 33/1 on their teenage daughter appearing in a þorn film before she turned 21.

Edited June 26, 2023 by How I Wrote Elastic Man
Last sentence of 3rd paragraph added

[Yellowfuture 71]

On 20/06/2023 at 11:20, Yellowfuture said:

It’s a strange emotion when you think the hundreds who lost their lives at sea last week off the Greek coast.

The “Moral Maze” radio 4 tonight 8.00 will be discussing this point, media coverage of a few very very rich people being lost on a jaunt vis hundreds of migrants drowned at sea at a very similar time. I think it was the timing of the two incidents, being so close together, and the stark contrast in coverage that really hit home with me and caused me to write the above post.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,742]

1 hour ago, Yellowfuture said:

The “Moral Maze” radio 4 tonight 8.00 will be discussing this point, media coverage of a few very very rich people being lost on a jaunt vis hundreds of migrants drowned at sea at a very similar time. I think it was the timing of the two incidents, being so close together, and the stark contrast in coverage that really hit home with me and caused me to write the above post.

Reminds me of Nicola Bulley. You think anyone would have cared about her vanishing had she not been a pretty, white, upper middle class woman? Let's say she was an African migrant who vanished. Do you think her name would have been all over the front pages of every newspaper in the country?

 

Rather like Madeleine Mccann. There are hundreds of children that have gone missing in the past two decades yet we only ever seem to hear about her.

Edited June 28, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary