Who wants david Wagner as head coach?

[Tumbleweed 106]

I don't think Wagner should be sacked because I now don't think it will make a jot of difference. The one who should go is Webber, along with Ward. I think the problems in the squad is as much psychological as anything else. Confidence is low, there's little passion, no high-performance culture from what I can see, no real medium or long term plan. As someone above said (sonyc?) something is just not quite right at the heart of the club. Delia and MWJ, for all their best intentions at doing things the right way, seem too prone to building up emotional and non-objective relationships with the management team. This has resulted in the SD seemingly able to get away with poor snap managerial decisions and dreadful player recruitment. With Zoe Ward there too, there is little accountability and too much kitchen table insularity. I firmly believe that needs to change asap if things are to improve dramatically.

It went wrong with Farke in his second PL relegation when the SD bought the wrong "gun" (after not giving him one at all the first time) and therefore not learning the mistakes of relegation 1. The SD couldn't get Farke to turn things around so fired him. He bought in Smith who had just been fired who was dreadful and then fired him. He brought in his friend who has made no difference. Player recruitment has been awful. There has been no continuity of style, no long term succession planning, no "dynasty" being built. Just what else does a SD have to get wrong to be called out for it by his boss(es)? Does he just make nice tea for the board meetings?

The squad clearly needs some rebuilding but I still see that as nibbling around the edges. The atmosphere at CR and Colney needs purifying.

[Paul101 93]

short reply is No

 

not seen a single thing I like

[Google Bot 3,278]

8 minutes ago, Paul101 said:

not seen a single thing I like

Not even the nipple squeeze?

[Petriix 2,838]

I basically feel the same about Wagner now as I did about Dean Smith at the end of last season. I'm willing to give him 10 games next season to see if there's something to get behind before making judgement. I'm happy to write off this season as long as we see some clear progress and an obvious plan starting to unfold. However, if I see strikers on the wing and an incoherent midfield then I will quickly lose faith. 

[Yobocop 1,099]

32 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I basically feel the same about Wagner now as I did about Dean Smith at the end of last season. I'm willing to give him 10 games next season to see if there's something to get behind before making judgement. I'm happy to write off this season as long as we see some clear progress and an obvious plan starting to unfold. However, if I see strikers on the wing and an incoherent midfield then I will quickly lose faith. 

Have to agree - good to hear the planning has started already to ensure no square pegs and round holes takes place. A clean bill of health with also help tremendously with this! 

[Barham Blitz 653]

I don't like managerial change for the sake of it but the jury is very much still out for me.  I don't like the abdication of midfield control with the way in which Wagner has set the team up thus far - as with Smith the flaws were evident even when we were getting results - and playing strikers out wide seems to be a weird obsession at this club at the moment.

As long as behind the scenes there is some coherent plan for next season and the players are signed to implement it then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.  But there has to be some progress early next season.  At the moment I'm not overly convinced that there is.

[percy varco 199]

No. 
Record not good enough. 
Had a chance. Failed. 
Next. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

I've gone on record plenty of times before saying that I still support Wagner, I want him to be our coach next year and I've been saying ever since Webber first came here that I want us to play a pressing more Klopp-lite style of football (as opposed to the Guardiola-lite style of Farke).

However, one thing I have been considering for the last few weeks i that maybe I like the idea of Wagner more than the actual reality. I truly believe that possession focused football has become outdated for all but the very top clubs or teams who are outstanding in terms of individual quality for whatever league they're in and that the game now is more about pressing high, quick transitions and utilizing set pieces and that is Wagners style of coaching and I really want to see a Norwich team play that style to it's potential. 

But I think Wagner is lacking a bit in terms of man-management, he's clearly lost this group of players and he says things in media interviews that have me scratching my head sometimes. He reminds me of AN in a way in that he's too honest and a lot of players will feel slighted by what he says.

He also doesn't appear to be able to coach players who aren't suited to his style of play into any kind of an effective unit, essentially he has to have a team bought for him who fits within exact parameters or he can't get anything out of them. Contrast that with other managers like Farke for example who could at least get the players who were unsuited to his style from 17/18 playing to his way if it wasn't effective in terms of results.

He doesn't have much of a record of bringing through YT players either which is meant to be critical to our model and I've been less than impressed with the way he's used some of our younger players. Sorry for using Farke again but every time he threw a young lad in they performed to a decent standard and their team mates around them looked after them, under Wagner they don't look as assured and no one in the team covers for them. 

I don't think he's a great match day tactician either. I know he's not that type of coach (and again neither was Farke) but his lineups and approaches to games have been baffling at times even with injuries. 

I so want to see a high energy, intense Norwich side who out-works the opposition in every game, gets stuck in, attacks ruthlessly on the counter at pace, does well at set pieces and tries to win the ball back at the first opportunity because not only would it be very easy to support it would be effective if we ever did get promoted again which is why I was happy when we appointed Wagner but I've been pretty uninspired by Wagner's implementation of those ideals so far. I get that the squad aren't suited to it, but if we're not even trying to play that way and downed tools when the play offs looked unlikely it suggests real problems with some aspects of his management and it does have me worried for the future. I do want him here next season though but like I said that's more because maybe I like the idea of Wagner more than the actual reality. I guess we'll soon find out though, next season will be interesting of nothing else. 

[City 101 83]

He fits this squad well they are both ****

[Google Bot 3,278]

20 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

However, one thing I have been considering for the last few weeks i that maybe I like the idea of Wagner more than the actual reality.

I really agree with a lot of what you've written here.  However, I have more questions on Wagner as a coach than I do the klopp-lite style.

He strikes me as someone who's taken note, or possibly had classes in, positive speaking.  Since he came here, and even up until the loss vs WBA he was counting down the matches and including the 3 playoff games in each conversation.

I do worry that he lacks a sense of realism, I appreciate the positive speaking aspect, and Farke was caught very much in that mindset a lot too.

But when you "speak it, then believe it", the next step is to "receive it..." And that's a massive piece missing, and one he's responsible for.   But I'm not going to turn on him as there's to many mitigating circumstances, on the positive we may have just seen him in the worst possible light where he has to stay positive despite all going to **** around him.... That's never a good look for a manager/coach.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,138]

11 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I really agree with a lot of what you've written here.  However, I have more questions on Wagner as a coach than I do the klopp-lite style.

He strikes me as someone who's taken note, or possibly had classes in, positive speaking.  Since he came here, and even up until the loss vs WBA he was counting down the matches and including the 3 playoff games in each conversation.

I do worry that he lacks a sense of realism, I appreciate the positive speaking aspect, and Farke was caught very much in that mindset a lot too.

But when you "speak it, then believe it", the next step is to "receive it..." And that's a massive piece missing, and one he's responsible for.   But I'm not going to turn on him as there's to many mitigating circumstances, on the positive we may have just seen him in the worst possible light where he has to stay positive despite all going to **** around him.... That's never a good look for a manager/coach.

To me it always felt like part of the reason he was employed was because Webber thought he could raise the morale of the fans by having that positive outlook. You know it, I know it and most other fans know that you have to take what 99% of managers say to the press with a pinch of salt. We've recently had Neil and Farke who were extraordinarily honest and Farke in particular was really good at giving an honest assessment of things without throwing his team under the bus. He was critical of individual players at the time but never basically said that 'most of my squad lacks the right character or doesn't have the attributes to play my way' like Wagner has been intimating for the last few weeks. I don't think he ever really believed what he was saying in interviews it was like you said more like someone who has had training trying to say the right things, until he stopped and then shifted all blame onto his players. From watching the last few weeks the players have either stopped playing for him or believing in themselves and even with a big overhaul some of them are going to be playing key roles for us next season so i hope he hasn't soured relationships with the players completely. 

My whole post was about how my questions are aimed at Wagner the coach and not his philosophy so again I agree with you there. I want a likable coach who gets his team to play high energy, direct, attacking, pressing football, I hope Wagner is the man to bring us that but there are some real worries for me now. 

[repman 635]

48 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

However, one thing I have been considering for the last few weeks i that maybe I like the idea of Wagner more than the actual reality. I truly believe that possession focused football has become outdated for all but the very top clubs or teams who are outstanding in terms of individual quality for whatever league they're in and that the game now is more about pressing high, quick transitions and utilizing set pieces and that is Wagners style of coaching and I really want to see a Norwich team play that style to it's potential. 

This was a great post. 

I've kept this paragraph because I think I'd argue that the opposite is true now. I think being good in possession is the biggest key to success now and I think that is something Wagner clearly acknowledges, his first notable change was Kenny dropping in-between the CB's. I do think there's a possibility that a high pressing side which simply plays the ball upfield with little care could have success but that side would need monumental levels of fitness to keep it up over 90 minutes let alone a full season. I think you can do the pressing and transitions but you also need to be good enough on the ball to keep it for periods, if not the opposition will do it instead. When gegenpressing really took off with Klopp's Dortmund around 10 years ago teams were nowhere near as good on the ball as they are now, I think the speed at which football has developed over that time goes under the radar. I look at how badly Marsch did at Leeds as a big warning sign that maybe the intense pressing style doesn't work too well.

Just a point on set pieces as well, I agree we should be making much better use of them, it was good at the start of the year to see that the club made an effort to employ a specialist in the role. Obviously the returns weren't massively special but since he left our set pieces have got worse (even taking into account the goals vs Millwall). It feels like whoever is working on them now has no clear principles of what they want to do. Nearly every week recently we've worked a corner routine where we pin most of the opposition into the box so we can generate a shot from the edge of the box. This is not a good routine at all, the odds of a shot from 20 yards that has to go through a sea of bodies going in is incredibly low, at that point you might as well whip it in and hope one of the players you've sent into the 6 yard box gets their head on it. 

[mrD66M 99]

Every coach deserves a preseason and the chance to shape a squad. Smith had that.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

I've seen the 'willing to give him 10 games' that was applied to Smith. Seeing as we were around the auto slots around 10 games last season and people were still lobbying against Smith, I say that's a clear cue to not waste our time on 'willing to give him 10 games' this time and start afresh with a new manager.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

4 minutes ago, mrD66M said:

Every coach deserves a preseason and the chance to shape a squad. Smith had that.

Farke had a lot more than that.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

36 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Farke had a lot more than that.

Farke achieved as much as he could with the players we had... we had a style.  Smith was uninspiring. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

31 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Farke achieved as much as he could with the players we had... we had a style.  Smith was uninspiring. 

If only we could get the rules of football to be changed to be more in line with figure-skating or synchronised swimming, we'd have been fine with Farke.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

I don’t think he was the best candidate for the job at the time. And I don’t think other managers would have accepted the staggeringly bad results we had at the tail end of the season. However I am willing to give him the first ten games of next season to see how things have developed with a transfer window and a pre season under his leadership. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

If only we could get the rules of football to be changed to be more in line with figure-skating or synchronised swimming, we'd have been fine with Farke.

I think had Farke stayed we would have had the best chance of going back up again once we got relegated. His style in the championship just seems to get results. Felt to me a little bit of a stupid decision to sack him and then not give the new manager any money to spend in jan. If the club had already decided they were happy with relegation then Farke was the stand out candidate to get up promoted a third time. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

20 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If only we could get the rules of football to be changed to be more in line with figure-skating or synchronised swimming, we'd have been fine with Farke.

Now  who's  being silly.  Don't say we, say you...be a man.

[Yellow Wal 314]

I just hope it isn't Norwich City who have to call on Neil Warnock next February to save them from the drop!

[Robert N. LiM 4,368]

On 11/05/2023 at 22:21, Christoph Stiepermann said:

However, one thing I have been considering for the last few weeks i that maybe I like the idea of Wagner more than the actual reality.

Great post. Agree with lots of it but the above was almost spooky in encapsulating how I feel! 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I've seen the 'willing to give him 10 games' that was applied to Smith. Seeing as we were around the auto slots around 10 games last season and people were still lobbying against Smith, I say that's a clear cue to not waste our time on 'willing to give him 10 games' this time and start afresh with a new manager.

Hand on heart, I’d have still been wanting Smith gone if we finished in the playoffs under him.

You had to be in the ground to see just what he had turned us into. He was slowly killing the joy. I firmly believe his decline would’ve continued without the change. He just didn’t care. He cares more at Leicester I reckon, because if he takes them down his career will be back to league 1 where it really belongs 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If only we could get the rules of football to be changed to be more in line with figure-skating or synchronised swimming, we'd have been fine with Farke.

I was fine with him anyway. 10x the manager than his immediate replacement.