Michael Bailey on Ramsey

[canarybubbles 1,986]

I watched Bailey's latest video podcast last night and he suggested that Ramsey celebrated as he did because it was Norwich who decided to end his loan once Dean Smith was fired, not the player himself, because they wanted to replace him with Marquinhos.

If this is true (and Bailey is not some wannabe in-the-know poser, but a respected football journalist), it would be yet another poor decision by Webber, since Ramsey was having quite a good loan spell at City and Marquinhos has been largely ineffective since coming in.

Bailey was quite direct about this and didn't hedge his words. He also said that he believed Sara would be sold in the close season. He didn't go on to add 'so that Webber can waste yet more money on poor recruitment decisions', but IMO the implication was there.

EDIT: I know it can be argued that it is due to Webber that we have Sara in the first place, but even so I'm scared that he is going to repeat his earlier mistake and sell the player we should be building our team around and replace him with a bunch of bad loans. In Buendia's case, there may have been a gentleman's agreement that needed to be honoured; there would be no such mitigating factor if he sells Sara and replaces him with the equivalent of Gilmour, Kabak and Normann.

Edited April 19, 2023 by canarybubbles

[Midlands Yellow 4,176]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

I watched Bailey's latest video podcast last night and he suggested that Ramsey celebrated as he did because it was Norwich who decided to end his loan once Dean Smith was fired, not the player himself, because they wanted to replace him with Marquinhos.

If this is true (and Bailey is not some wannabe in-the-know poser, but a respected football journalist), it would be yet another poor decision by Webber, since Ramsey was having quite a good loan spell at City and Marquinhos has been largely ineffective since coming in.

Bailey was quite direct about this and didn't hedge his words. He also said that he believed Sara would be sold in the close season. He didn't go on to add 'so that Webber can waste yet more money on poor recruitment decisions', but IMO the implication was there.

EDIT: I know it can be argued that it is due to Webber that we have Sara in the first place, but even so I'm scared that he is going to repeat his earlier mistake and sell the player we should be building our team around and replace him with a bunch of bad loans. In Buendia's case, there may have been a gentleman's agreement that needed to be honoured; there would be no such mitigating factor if he sells Sara and replaces him with the equivalent of Gilmour, Kabak and Normann.

How is Webber still in a job here, has to go in the summer. 

[Nuff Said 5,309]

6 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

How is Webber still in a job here, has to go in the summer. 

Based on what is speculation about speculation? By all means criticise Webber for signing Rashica (although Galatasary seem able to get a tune out of him), Tzolis, Kabak (again, did ok elsewhere) and Normann but but we don’t *know* what happened with Ramsey and we haven’t sold Sara.

[yellowrider120 812]

5 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Based on what is speculation about speculation? By all means criticise Webber for signing Rashica (although Galatasary seem able to get a tune out of him), Tzolis, Kabak (again, did ok elsewhere) and Normann but but we don’t *know* what happened with Ramsey and we haven’t sold Sara.

We haven't got to 'the summer' yet though!

[TIL 1010 4,853]

Michael Bailey is surely our most respected local football journalist and i have no reason to doubt what he has said.

Webber needs to be gone from this club ASAP !

[Nuff Said 5,309]

1 minute ago, yellowrider120 said:

We haven't got to 'the summer' yet though!

That’s my point. *If* and when we sell him, then criticise the decision. Don’t start doom-posting about things like haven’t happened yet. It’s like those posters on the derby thread convinced we would lose to 1p5wich.  Why get riled about something that hasn’t and might not happen? Live in the moment not a possible disastrous future.

[lake district canary 4,586]

Marqhuinos is quite probably a very good player, but finding it difficult to find his way in a weaker squad that is lacking in confidence and cohesion. It's the wee Billy syndrome again - good promising player comes from a situation of being amongst top level players where he can just relax and be part of that - to a difficult situation with weaker players where he is expected to show top level ability.  Some players can do that and look good, others will struggle - it's all part of their development.  Kane looked like a fish out of water in the short time he was with us.

Thing to do is recognise that it isn't working - like Farke did with Billy - and put them on the back burner.  Wagner may not have much choice other than to play Marqhuinos because of injuries, but if he does play we need him to find his mojo if we want to do something in what is left this season.

 

[Capt. Pants 4,356]

I think the point is Ramsey looked far better playing in the same squad and you would have hoped got even better as the season developed, which is what has happened at Boro.

Marquinhos looks ordinary really, doesn't really fit in, the players don't pass to him much, always a bad sign.

Poor decision if this turns out a swap.

[king canary 7,749]

I remember reading at the time it was our decision to end the loan and Villa were a bit surprised. I can only imagine he either threw his toys out of the pram post Smith sacking or we thought the injury was worse than it turned out to be.

There is no reason we would have had to terminate it to sign Marquinos though- the rules about number of loan players aren't the same in this league. 

[Google Bot 3,438]

What happens 'officially' is not always reflective of the real-world reasoning behind it. 

There will be clauses within those loan contracts and I'd imagine one of those is that it's only us that can call it off, or else there will be compensations due from Villa if they called it, or the player decided to up and leave.

So, if Ramsey wanted to go because of Smith being fired... What else can the club do but signal that they'd like to return him to Villa?

The injury was clearly a cover up that all parties were aware of.  I don't buy that we'd be the one's pushing him out without a valid reason, who knows what was said or actions occurred behind the scenes.   

It's also in neither club or players interest for any negativity to be in public view from whatever events triggered it.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Google Bot

[king canary 7,749]

Just now, Google Bot said:

The injury was clearly a cover up that all parties were aware of.  I don't buy that we'd be the one's pushing him out without a valid reason, who knows what was said or actions occurred behind the scenes.  

Just to clarify- he clearly was injured, his surgery occured before Smith was let go if memory serves. So I'm not sure it was a cover up, although how bad it was may have been exaggerated so it could be given as a reason.

[Branston Pickle 3,770]

The issue here is that Ramsey was undeniably injured, and we presumably decided that it might be longer term before he was back. Given that information, the decision made sense and is only stupid in hindsight as he’s played a number of times for boro.

The thing is, I can well imagine Ramsey having been kept on and his injury having taken ages to heal - the bleating about us keeping a crock would have been incessant, as it has been re: Hayden.

Tbh you need a bit of luck with transfer and loans, and we seem to have used ours up with Pukki, Skipp and Emi…we are surely due another dose of fortune though.

[Google Bot 3,438]

17 minutes ago, king canary said:

although how bad it was may have been exaggerated so it could be given as a reason.

I can't believe our medical team are so inept that they looked at an injured Ramsey and an injured Hayden and decided that Ramsey was the one to send back. 

And, if that was the case, why would Ramsey be bitter if he was out for the season and we made the decision for him to go home to recover?   Makes no sense to me, as he's the type of player that Wagner would want here.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Google Bot

[king canary 7,749]

36 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I can't believe our medical team are so inept that they looked at an injured Ramsey and an injured Hayden and decided that Ramsey was the one to send back. 

And, if that was the case, why would Ramsey be bitter if he was out for the season and we made the decision for him to go home to recover?   Makes no sense to me, as he's the type of player that Wagner would want here.

Do we know we had an option to send Hayden back? As far as I'm aware not all loans have break clauses so it may be that we didn't have the option with Hayden.

[hogesar 9,879]

Ramsey would be more useful in this team than Marquinhos but there's no reason it had to be one or the other. 

I think there's a little rewriting going on because I was defending his inclusion in the team most weeks. People felt he was taking the place of one of our own players who'd likely be better. I didn't and don't think that's the case. Others mocked him as Deano's love child and the only reason he was getting games.

If we sell Sara for £25 million then the reality is Webber will have made another very good signing. It's as difficult as it's ever been to sign a player from abroad and make big money on them - if it was easy every club would be doing exactly that.

Of course, all of the above is speculation based on speculation and let's remember it wasn't that long ago people were deriding Webber for throwing money away on signing Sara...

[king canary 7,749]

25 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Ramsey would be more useful in this team than Marquinhos but there's no reason it had to be one or the other. 

I think there's a little rewriting going on because I was defending his inclusion in the team most weeks. People felt he was taking the place of one of our own players who'd likely be better. I didn't and don't think that's the case. Others mocked him as Deano's love child and the only reason he was getting games.

If we sell Sara for £25 million then the reality is Webber will have made another very good signing. It's as difficult as it's ever been to sign a player from abroad and make big money on them - if it was easy every club would be doing exactly that.

Of course, all of the above is speculation based on speculation and let's remember it wasn't that long ago people were deriding Webber for throwing money away on signing Sara...

I think most had come round to Ramsey before his loan ended to be fair.

And yes if we sell Sara for £25m then it might just about 25% of the money he's wasted the last season or two.

[AJ 1,238]

Letting Ramsey go, if true, is a very odd decision. I guess the logic was we've got players coming back to fitness that can fill Ramsey's shoes, but we don't have a winger with Dowell injured and Sinani not doing the business so getting one in might balance the squad better. 

As for Sara, if we let him go along with Pukki leaving, we suddenly have a very average looking Championship squad again which needs some pretty impressive recruitment to be capable of a promotion charge. That said, if we can get decent money for him then fair enough I guess but will be a big shame, he's grown and developed a lot this season

[PurpleCanary 5,636]

33 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Ramsey would be more useful in this team than Marquinhos but there's no reason it had to be one or the other. 

I think there's a little rewriting going on because I was defending his inclusion in the team most weeks. People felt he was taking the place of one of our own players who'd likely be better. I didn't and don't think that's the case. Others mocked him as Deano's love child and the only reason he was getting games.

If we sell Sara for £25 million then the reality is Webber will have made another very good signing. It's as difficult as it's ever been to sign a player from abroad and make big money on them - if it was easy every club would be doing exactly that.

Of course, all of the above is speculation based on speculation and let's remember it wasn't that long ago people were deriding Webber for throwing money away on signing Sara...

Either way, sell or keep, it shows Webber's forward-thinking in getting ahead of the game by significantly boosting our scouting network in South America to compensate for the post-Brexit continental European restrictions he knew were going to come when freedom of movement eventually ended, as it later did.

[hogesar 9,879]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think most had come round to Ramsey before his loan ended to be fair.

And yes if we sell Sara for £25m then it might just about 25% of the money he's wasted the last season or two.

I suppose it's only fair to look at Webbers overall time here if we're going to look at money made / wasted. I reckon he's on the right side of that. I question the 25% too, but can't really be bothered to go into that detail.

As for Ramsey, just look at every team line-up announcement on social media and tell me there wasn't still people criticising Ramsey's inclusion every single week. I suppose people done the same with Mclean though so...

Edited April 19, 2023 by hogesar

[hogesar 9,879]

Just now, PurpleCanary said:

Either way, sell or keep, it shows Webber's forward-thinking in getting ahead of the game by significantly boosting our scouting network in South America to compensate for the post-Brexit continental European restrictions he knew were going to come when freedom of movement eventually ended, as it later did.

Yes, but the club doesn't constantly shove this in the fans faces as part of their forward-thinking work - and I guarantee those who have decided they dislike Webber won't be praising him for things like this. 

Webber isn't some sort of messiah but he's also not the awful Sporting Director some are painting - he is most certainly not the one and sole reason for our failure to get promoted this season. There's a reason he was one of very few SD's even considered for the Chelsea role (It's already been suggested to me on this forum that there was probably hundreds but Webber wanted it out in public 😅). 

And the big thing people are forgetting is if we get rid of Webber we have to replace him. And that Sporting Director will also get things wrong. That much is guaranteed. What isn't guaranteed is them finding a Farke, finding a Buendia, a Pukki, a Sara...

 

[norfolkngood 1,105]

i hope they have the scans like when Dean Ashton was injured ! 

Edited April 19, 2023 by norfolkngood

[Mason 47 1,465]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

As for Ramsey, just look at every team line-up announcement on social media and tell me there wasn't still people criticising Ramsey's inclusion every single week. I suppose people done the same with Mclean though so...

I mean, this season I don't think there's been a single teams selection when every position hasn't been bemoaned by someone. If it can happen to Pukki, it can happen to anyone.

[Google Bot 3,438]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Do we know we had an option to send Hayden back? As far as I'm aware not all loans have break clauses so it may be that we didn't have the option with Hayden.

Well we don't know that, of course.  All we've heard is that Ramsey was injured for what was deemed remainder of season, and we allowed him to go back home to recover as couldn't be part of plans here.

So why should he be so unhappy that he comes over to our supporters and gloat?

The only logical conclusion I can come to -if true- is that our medical team IS so inept that we got it categorically wrong and he felt that it was an excuse to release him, as he was seen as part of the Smith era.

But to me that doesn't make sense as Wagner would surely want a player of his quality, even if it was for the later stages of the season.

[king canary 7,749]

54 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yes, but the club doesn't constantly shove this in the fans faces as part of their forward-thinking work - and I guarantee those who have decided they dislike Webber won't be praising him for things like this. 

Webber isn't some sort of messiah but he's also not the awful Sporting Director some are painting - he is most certainly not the one and sole reason for our failure to get promoted this season. There's a reason he was one of very few SD's even considered for the Chelsea role (It's already been suggested to me on this forum that there was probably hundreds but Webber wanted it out in public 😅). 

And the big thing people are forgetting is if we get rid of Webber we have to replace him. And that Sporting Director will also get things wrong. That much is guaranteed. What isn't guaranteed is them finding a Farke, finding a Buendia, a Pukki, a Sara...

 

The Chelsea stuff I find difficult to understand. Not why he was interviewed but more what he was interviewed for considering the eventual structure they went for. I don't think it as simple as 'Webber would have been given the same role he had here but at a bigger club.'

I think you're right he isn't as bad as he can be made out to be but he's been an abject failure in the most public parts of his role the last two years. One signing that might be sold for some profit doesn't balance out the fact he's failed miserably to assemble a squad that can compete or to hire a manager who can get the most out of the players he's signing.

[Richard Richard 186]

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Marqhuinos is quite probably a very good player, but finding it difficult to find his way in a weaker squad that is lacking in confidence and cohesion. It's the wee Billy syndrome again - good promising player comes from a situation of being amongst top level players where he can just relax and be part of that - to a difficult situation with weaker players where he is expected to show top level ability.  Some players can do that and look good, others will struggle - it's all part of their development.  Kane looked like a fish out of water in the short time he was with us.

Thing to do is recognise that it isn't working - like Farke did with Billy - and put them on the back burner.  Wagner may not have much choice other than to play Marqhuinos because of injuries, but if he does play we need him to find his mojo if we want to do something in what is left this season.

 

Genuine top quality players still shine in a weaker team, they raise their game and stand out amongst lesser players.

I don't buy the "he's playing in a weaker team so is struggling" argument at all. I doubt the likes of Kane or Haaland would look poor playing for us, just because the rest of the team isn't very good at the moment.

[Jim Smith 2,373]

I wasn’t bothered about losing Ramsey at the time as I thought Dowell should be playing although in hindsight with the latters injury it would have been useful to still have him around. Marquenos has brought nothing to the table so far in my view and has been very disappointing. He’s not a bad player, just very “meh” and plays it safe far too much of the time.

The interesting point for me on the Ramsey lines from Bailey is he’s implying the club were happy to let him take the heat for his departure when in fact it was our decision and suited us to get rid. See also Howson (who in my view was almost slandered) and, to a certain extent, Buendia. 

 

[Jim Smith 2,373]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Ramsey would be more useful in this team than Marquinhos but there's no reason it had to be one or the other. 

I think there's a little rewriting going on because I was defending his inclusion in the team most weeks. People felt he was taking the place of one of our own players who'd likely be better. I didn't and don't think that's the case. Others mocked him as Deano's love child and the only reason he was getting games.

If we sell Sara for £25 million then the reality is Webber will have made another very good signing. It's as difficult as it's ever been to sign a player from abroad and make big money on them - if it was easy every club would be doing exactly that.

Of course, all of the above is speculation based on speculation and let's remember it wasn't that long ago people were deriding Webber for throwing money away on signing Sara...

Why don’t we focus on signing players who are effective in our team, long term rather than purely who we “can make big money on.” Then we might actually have a chance of some sustained success. 

[lake district canary 4,586]

6 minutes ago, Richard Richard said:

Genuine top quality players still shine in a weaker team, they raise their game and stand out amongst lesser players.

I don't buy the "he's playing in a weaker team so is struggling" argument at all. I doubt the likes of Kane or Haaland would look poor playing for us, just because the rest of the team isn't very good at the moment.

Kane did look poor playing for us.

[Well b back 3,342]

6 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Kane did look poor playing for us.

Did you judge that on his whole 134 minutes on the pitch or the fact he was an 18 year old ( may have just been 19 ) playing in the Premier League.

All the noises coming from our coaching staff at the time said he was going to become a superstar. I think his reputation came from the one missed chance.

[hogesar 9,879]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

The Chelsea stuff I find difficult to understand. Not why he was interviewed but more what he was interviewed for considering the eventual structure they went for. I don't think it as simple as 'Webber would have been given the same role he had here but at a bigger club.'

I think you're right he isn't as bad as he can be made out to be but he's been an abject failure in the most public parts of his role the last two years. One signing that might be sold for some profit doesn't balance out the fact he's failed miserably to assemble a squad that can compete or to hire a manager who can get the most out of the players he's signing.

Obviously we don't know the ins and outs of Chelsea but there's no way they'd be giving him the level of control he has here - what his role would have been isn't particularly clear as most Chelsea fans will tell you there's little definitive about their club right now.

I lean towards the squad not being good enough. I don't put a huge amount of blame on the signings this season - I think the likes of Nunez, Sara, Ramsey have added something to the team. I understood the Hayden signing at the time - it's obviously been a failure but we knew the risks. We should have signed another ideally but I think the signings this season have been hugely limited by the poor return on our permanent signings last season. I don't think another SD would have necessarily done better pre-season - especially with the pressure of finding, convincing and all the associated work with getting the Attanassio's on board - when that comes to fruition I believe we will hear far more about just how much work the Webbers have put into that.