Wagner isn't any better than Smith.

[nutty nigel 7,602]

13 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

You would be on a hiding. DF was a top coach who was let down in the market. Most of us appreciated him to allow for him not to be successful in the EPL.

Absolute rubbish. Unless this 'most of us' didn't vote in the polls. Perhsps "most of us" should have created bed sheets saying Farke must stay. 

[Monty13 2,247]

6 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

What about the season we didn't have Skipp?

We had a prime Tettey and a decent backup in Trybull.

I’m not sure the missing DM from the current squad is anywhere near as big a factor as the missing creator, but it’s still a factor.

 

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

Is starting to make some baffling selection decisions, he can have the first ten games of next season in my eyes though, he’s been given this bunch of chokers

[nutty nigel 7,602]

For the avoidance of continual rewriting of history...

 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,152]

I'm not going to start blaming the manager yet but some of the things we've been doing on the pitch have me pretty baffled and frustrated.

I don't get why we always seem to have 4 attacking players playing so high on the oppositions defensive line and not getting involved with the game, it leaves a huge space in the middle of the park and makes it impossible for us to play out from the back because there aren't enough passing options. It would be okay if we were going route 1 but we're playing with Pukki upfront who doesn't win high balls and hasn't got the pace anymore to get behind defences. Hernandez and Marqhuinios have a bit of speed but are more ball carriers who want to run into space with the ball as opposed to running onto long balls over the top, they don't really have the nous and timing to get on the end of those and we rarely play balls through to them anyway. 

We're playing a slow possession game in a weird 4-1-1-4 formation and I can't see the logic in it, trying to pass through teams when he have no midfield and as all of our forwards stay static and don't create space when they're playing high we have no way of building attacks and they're usually squeezed out and lose the ball when we get it to them because apart from Hernandez done of them have any strength or pace/dribbling skills to beat a man.

I can tolerate most styles of football unlike some on here but one thing I really don't like is slow football because unless you have extremely gifted passers of the ball and intelligent players who move well everything always breaks down after the 3rd to 5th pass forward and makes you very easy to play against. All PL teams and top Championship teams now play the game (however they decide to go about it) at a much faster pace than we do. I was hoping Wagner with his intense pressing Klopp like philosophy would change that but we're still knocking it about slowly and leisurely, with too much backwards and sideways and we're not running hard enough or getting stuck in without the ball still. It makes us so easy to play against. 

[Canario 207]

4 hours ago, CDMullins said:

I'm not entirely sure what he's supposed to do,

He's tried playing with Teemu,

He's tried playing without Teemu,

He's tried playing without Teemu and Sarg together,

He's tried Idah,

He's been forced to play Teemu and Sarg together again,

He's tried Hernandez, over tried Marquinhos

The one player who 'could' make a difference going forward who hasn't had a fair shot is Tzolis.

He's tried Mac,

Tried Giannoulis,

Brought back Gibbs

Had no options at CB

 

Whilst I agree most performances have been under par,

I'm not sure what he could do differently?

Not shove a collective bunch of number 9s high up the pitch leaving a totally unbalanced side, with very little defensive cover and gaping holes in the centre of the park??

[CDMullins 445]

1 hour ago, Canario said:

Not shove a collective bunch of number 9s high up the pitch leaving a totally unbalanced side, with very little defensive cover and gaping holes in the centre of the park??

So play who?

The only 'wingers' we have fit are Hernandez, Tzolis and Marquinhos.

Hernandez in patches aside, none have been effective.

Games have come thick and fast so rotation has been required too.

[mrdi 373]

4 hours ago, BigFish said:

 

To the contrary, we sacked Farke & his team just after giving him a multi-year extension; then sacked Smith when he still had 18 months of his contract remaining. 

I’d say there’s no desire for any similarly hefty pay-outs, let alone budget. 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,063]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

We had a prime Tettey and a decent backup in Trybull.

I’m not sure the missing DM from the current squad is anywhere near as big a factor as the missing creator, but it’s still a factor.

 

It's the biggest factor IMHO. Hayden has been dire.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,063]

2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Absolute rubbish. Unless this 'most of us' didn't vote in the polls. Perhsps "most of us" should have created bed sheets saying Farke must stay. 

Farke would have had a job for life if I had my way. I said it at the time and I reiterate it now - he was a one-off brilliant manager the likes of which we won't see again for many years unless we're very lucky.

As for Wagner, I prefer him to Smith and we need to have patience. He's not got his own players yet or had a pre-season. I want him to be in position for a long time and I really do not want us to become another Watford under any circumstances. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Worthy Nigelton

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

For the avoidance of continual rewriting of history...

 

I think hindsight is a wonderful thing but I still think the people who wanted Farke sacked wanted him to be replaced with a progressive choice. If you’d said to the supporters, would you like Farke sacked to appoint Dean Smith and then  Spend 0 money in January?. Almost all of those  People would choose to stick with Farke. Farke was the absolute best choice to get us back out of the champ should we have already accepted relegation by October last season. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Absolute rubbish. Unless this 'most of us' didn't vote in the polls. Perhsps "most of us" should have created bed sheets saying Farke must stay. 

What polls? You mean somebody on here posted one? What about it? It means nothing. The only poll was among the gutless board and Webber who sacked a good coach after winning.

[mrdi 373]

4 hours ago, CDMullins said:

1. If the playoffs was a prerequisite, then surely he'd of got a 6 month deal.

2. Surmising

3. If we don't make play offs his stock is at an all time low, it's not like he'll be a wanted man.

4. Not necessarily true at all, there have been some positive signs under Wagner and he has mitigation around player injury and having 3 strikers that couldn't hit a barn door.

5. Agree, but to bring in new ownership, some sort of Sporting Director (if they do replace Webber) and sack Webber in time for August is unlikely.

6. Our only saving grace is that it's not an expensive process.

1. I’m not sure anyone would take up a job like this on a 6 month contract (Dean Smith ant Leicester aside - though I imagine the ‘survival bonus’ carrot is a rather large one). The 12 month contract suggests to me they weren’t considering failure and the second 6 months would be in the EPL. Rinse, repeat.

2. of course, but isn’t that what these threads are about? 

3. I don’t think that his time here to date will damage his reputation that much. That many considered him to be an ‘underwhelming’ appointment suggests he wasn’t exactly an A-lister anyway. 

4. What I mean by that is the idea that Wagner is Webber’s man. I don’t agree that this should be considered the case, but again, it’s feasible. 
 

5. Of course it’s unlikely, but it’s not impossible. Who knows what degree of succession planning/discussions go on behind the scenes. MA may well have someone in mind and provisionally lined up already. 

6. Mercifully. I suspect the short contract was in part as I say in 1, but also came with a very inexpensive severance clause. 
 

But all this is speculative and as I’ve said elsewhere, I’d rather Wagner stays and succeeds. 

 

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,602]

10 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

What polls? You mean somebody on here posted one? What about it? It means nothing. The only poll was among the gutless board and Webber who sacked a good coach after winning.

We have different perspectives. 

From my perspective once the fans turn there's no way back bar results. Worthy won five in a row but it didn't win the fans back. The Farke out bedsheet had been made and we all have to lie in it.

If Farke stayed we would have fared no better than we did under Smith. Unless you suddenly think the players were good enough. By the end of the season it would have been toxic. 

The evidence is on that poll. Are you suggesting those fans would have warmed to Farke as we lost game after game? I've seen it too many times...

 

 

 

[BigFish 1,988]

1 hour ago, mrdi said:

To the contrary, we sacked Farke & his team just after giving him a multi-year extension; then sacked Smith when he still had 18 months of his contract remaining. 

I’d say there’s no desire for any similarly hefty pay-outs, let alone budget. 

No desire, but no obstacle

[lake district canary 4,544]

2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

We have different perspectives. 

From my perspective once the fans turn there's no way back bar results. Worthy won five in a row but it didn't win the fans back. The Farke out bedsheet had been made and we all have to lie in it.

If Farke stayed we would have fared no better than we did under Smith. Unless you suddenly think the players were good enough. By the end of the season it would have been toxic. 

The evidence is on that poll. Are you suggesting those fans would have warmed to Farke as we lost game after game? I've seen it too many times...

Internet polls are not a good guide though - and we won at Brentford to great acclaim, players performing for him and fans heralding it as a break through. No sign of "Farke out" there at all!

Were matches at CR getting toxic?  I seem to remember people saying it wasn't that bad, frustration, but not toxic - and if anyone could ride out a storm, it is Farke and all it needed to prevent toxicity was for the team to look as if they were up for it, which at Brentford, they certainly did. Webber can say he tried to change things for the better, but it didn't take a genius to see Smith was not going to do better than Farke - as you say, all along it was the quality of players that was the problem.

DF is very intelligent and a deep thinker, he would know if things were getting too bad and would have resigned at the point it was clear the situation was unsustainable. The match at Brentford proved a lot of things - he wasn't done yet.

 

[mrdi 373]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Internet polls are not a good guide though - and we won at Brentford to great acclaim, players performing for him and fans heralding it as a break through. No sign of "Farke out" there at all!

Were matches at CR getting toxic?  I seem to remember people saying it wasn't that bad, frustration, but not toxic - and if anyone could ride out a storm, it is Farke and all it needed to prevent toxicity was for the team to look as if they were up for it, which at Brentford, they certainly did. Webber can say he tried to change things for the better, but it didn't take a genius to see Smith was not going to do better than Farke - as you say, all along it was the quality of players that was the problem.

DF is very intelligent and a deep thinker, he would know if things were getting too bad and would have resigned at the point it was clear the situation was unsustainable. The match at Brentford proved a lot of things - he wasn't done yet.

 

The Leeds game was pretty grim. Felt like a tipping point. 

Onto Brentford - Farke reverts to a 4-2-3-1 for the first time that season, wins. Felt like a turning point. 

The cynic in me still suspects Webber sacked Farke not for results, but for disobeying directive and throwing 4-3-3 in the bin. 

 

[Jim Smith 2,339]

11 hours ago, mrdi said:

The Leeds game was pretty grim. Felt like a tipping point. 

Onto Brentford - Farke reverts to a 4-2-3-1 for the first time that season, wins. Felt like a turning point. 

The cynic in me still suspects Webber sacked Farke not for results, but for disobeying directive and throwing 4-3-3 in the bin. 

 

Yes as remarked elsewhere, the move to 4-3-3 has been disastrous both last season and for parts of this. The associated recruitment also. 

[Cowboy 198]

22 hours ago, CDMullins said:

I'm not entirely sure what he's supposed to do,

He's tried playing with Teemu,

He's tried playing without Teemu,

He's tried playing without Teemu and Sarg together,

He's tried Idah,

He's been forced to play Teemu and Sarg together again,

He's tried Hernandez, over tried Marquinhos

The one player who 'could' make a difference going forward who hasn't had a fair shot is Tzolis.

He's tried Mac,

Tried Giannoulis,

Brought back Gibbs

Had no options at CB

 

Whilst I agree most performances have been under par,

I'm not sure what he could do differently?

But that is a totally mechanistic view, as if the manager is a mechanic who just has to put all the parts together in the right order for the thing to work. In reality he has a squad pretty much all performing at a low personal performance level and with deeply engrained low morale. His main job is not the mechanics but raising morale. I don't think he (or probably almost any other manager) is capable of doing that with this group of players in this state. You have to say a total rebuild of the playing squad is inevitable, and given the funding situation, that might entail a dip into the third division again. It can work, as a certain other club is proving at the moment.

[CDMullins 445]

40 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

But that is a totally mechanistic view, as if the manager is a mechanic who just has to put all the parts together in the right order for the thing to work. In reality he has a squad pretty much all performing at a low personal performance level and with deeply engrained low morale. His main job is not the mechanics but raising morale. I don't think he (or probably almost any other manager) is capable of doing that with this group of players in this state. You have to say a total rebuild of the playing squad is inevitable, and given the funding situation, that might entail a dip into the third division again. It can work, as a certain other club is proving at the moment.

If all it needed was a 'man manager' then Neil Warnock should have got the job.

Still maintain that there was enough talent/experience in the squad to be promoted this season.

[Bradwell canary 109]

Neither stood a chance with this awful squad they inherited.

while we happily sell out best players it will never change.

 

[Mella Yella 40]

The simple truth is that players played a lot better under Farke.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,792]

[Grando 269]

On 16/04/2023 at 09:48, CDMullins said:

Still maintain that there was enough talent/experience in the squad to be promoted this season.

It’s getting very difficult to agree with you about the talent aspect…

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

I will give Wagner time it’s not his squad he’s not been able to sign a single player he wanted for us so far. 
 

the concerning thing for me is, 

1- we were promised a high press with energy and attacking intent which we are not getting 

2- the sheer lack of basic pass and move with triangles is alarming 

3- the absolute inability to defend which has now spanned 3 managers 

some of those points lay with the manager some of those lay at the person putting the squad together. We should have a plan on the pitch for how we set up and it just seems we are throwing darts in the dark at the board hoping some stick.