Wagner is deluded!

[repman 635]

18 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Given the different opposition, you would expect that. I think it's reasonable that you'd have different expectations of what a good performance is in those two games. Completely reasonable to focus on a solid defensive display and play on the counter away to a fellow play-off contender; we should be expecting to dominate Rotherham at home. The xG stats quoted by @repman are actually a little worse than I was expecting. I thought we'd be nearer 2.0 - and I thought Tzolis's late chance and the one Pukki stabbed wide from the corner were quite decent chances.

The Tzolis chance at the end was the best chance on xG, if you mean the one that he put over the top not the one which was blocked. I think with a lot of chances it can be easy to overlook certain factors, the Pukki chance that he puts wide, there are so many bodies between him and the goal, although practically only covering the left side. Even so that already makes it a much harder chance. Similarly with the late Tzolis chance, I know some data companies can recreate the shot to show what the view was from the player when hitting it. I would bet that the tight angle + keeper rushing out makes it look a tougher chance than it does on the highlights.

[canarybubbles 1,937]

4 minutes ago, repman said:

The Tzolis chance at the end was the best chance on xG, if you mean the one that he put over the top not the one which was blocked. I think with a lot of chances it can be easy to overlook certain factors, the Pukki chance that he puts wide, there are so many bodies between him and the goal, although practically only covering the left side. Even so that already makes it a much harder chance. Similarly with the late Tzolis chance, I know some data companies can recreate the shot to show what the view was from the player when hitting it. I would bet that the tight angle + keeper rushing out makes it look a tougher chance than it does on the highlights.

My guess is that he made such a hash of it because he was trying to do something clever (bend it into the top corner) rather than just hit it, which would make sense if the highlighted part of your post was true.

On the other hand, maybe he just screwed up.

[repman 635]

8 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

My guess is that he made such a hash of it because he was trying to do something clever (bend it into the top corner) rather than just hit it, which would make sense if the highlighted part of your post was true.

On the other hand, maybe he just screwed up.

Well he did screw up I guess considering it didn't go in!

There's a good angle on the end of the highlights actually which maybe gives some idea. You could maybe aim for that far corner but it also wouldn't be too hard a save for the keeper to make. Considering as well that the ball was going away from goal and also on the bounce up it'd be hard to direct it into the corner. I think he probably rushed it but going for the roof of the net was as best an option as any other.

[canarybubbles 1,937]

4 minutes ago, repman said:

Well he did screw up I guess considering it didn't go in!

There's a good angle on the end of the highlights actually which maybe gives some idea. You could maybe aim for that far corner but it also wouldn't be too hard a save for the keeper to make. Considering as well that the ball was going away from goal and also on the bounce up it'd be hard to direct it into the corner. I think he probably rushed it but going for the roof of the net was as best an option as any other.

Great angle. Makes it clear that it wasn't as simple as it looked in real time. Getting the goalie to commit before you hit it doesn't seem an option. He should have hit the target, though, and hoped the goalie guessed wrong?

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

Well I thought the performance against Rotherham was woeful. Nothing to get excited about whatsoever. Style-wise, not dissimilar to a confused Dean Smith side. The players appear to be far too comfortable playing with low levels of passion & belief.

Looking at the recent performances of those around us, Luton have won 3, PNE have won 4 - and Boro, Millwall, Blackburn, Norwich, Coventry, Sunderland, WBA, Watford & Bristol City have only won 1 game each from their last 5! 

If we can't make enough effort to secure a few wins in a race this wide open, I despair...

[Google Bot 3,298]

21 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

He should have hit the target, though, and hoped the goalie guessed wrong?

He done well to change direction on his run and get a foot to it in that moment I felt.  Many of our players wouldn't have made that run off the ball to start with, and likely would've been forced to run out wide to retain the ball.

[canarybubbles 1,937]

9 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

He done well to change direction on his run and get a foot to it in that moment I felt.  Many of our players wouldn't have made that run off the ball to start with, and likely would've been forced to run out wide to retain the ball.

Yes, I think one positive about both the mis-hit and the one cleared off the line was the fact that he was there in the first place. The ability to be where you need to be is an underestimated one in football. Lineker was a perfect example of this. Not very talented with the ball, but always somehow in the right place at the right time. I felt Ramsey has this talent.

Unfortunately, if the player then screws up the shot, they get criticised. Fair enough, but no one criticises the player who didn't have the instinct or whatever to be in the right place. I remember Ramsey missing an absolute sitter (can't remember against who) but he deserved credit for having the vision to be there rather than the players who didn't.

Edited April 11, 2023 by canarybubbles

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

31 minutes ago, Norfolk Mustard said:

Well I thought the performance against Rotherham was woeful. Nothing to get excited about whatsoever. Style-wise, not dissimilar to a confused Dean Smith side. The players appear to be far too comfortable playing with low levels of passion & belief.

Looking at the recent performances of those around us, Luton have won 3, PNE have won 4 - and Boro, Millwall, Blackburn, Norwich, Coventry, Sunderland, WBA, Watford & Bristol City have only won 1 game each from their last 5! 

If we can't make enough effort to secure a few wins in a race this wide open, I despair...

It’s amazing how differently people see things. If there was nothing to get excited about you just arrived 20 minutes in, because there were plenty of positive moves and good chances. If their keeper hadn’t had a great game then we would’ve won at a canter. As the game ticked on by the chances dried up, which happens at 0-0. 
The assertion that there is s lack of effort when we are still do close to actually qualifying for play offs is odd. I think you’re just a miserable fan.

Friday is big for our prospects. Time is definitely running out, but that wasn’t ‘woeful’ 

[hogesar 9,722]

16 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

He done well to change direction on his run and get a foot to it in that moment I felt.  Many of our players wouldn't have made that run off the ball to start with, and likely would've been forced to run out wide to retain the ball.

I'm not sure people would be desperate to find that very basic positive had it been Sargent or Idah missing as badly as Tzolis did.

[nutty nigel 7,585]

Just now, Google Bot said:

He done well to change direction on his run and get a foot to it in that moment I felt.  Many of our players wouldn't have made that run off the ball to start with, and likely would've been forced to run out wide to retain the ball.

He was only on the pitch for ten minutes or so but even so twice got in good goal scoring positions. I don't think Tzolis is a wide player in the way Wagner seems to want them to play. Onel is that type so the change is never like for like. I see Tzolis as more of a centre forward or even number ten. The problem with changing managers twice quickly is that next season we could well end up with a squad that's suited to three different philosophies.

[nutty nigel 7,585]

6 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

It’s amazing how differently people see things. If there was nothing to get excited about you just arrived 20 minutes in, because there were plenty of positive moves and good chances. If their keeper hadn’t had a great game then we would’ve won at a canter. As the game ticked on by the chances dried up, which happens at 0-0. 
The assertion that there is s lack of effort when we are still do close to actually qualifying for play offs is odd. I think you’re just a miserable fan.

Friday is big for our prospects. Time is definitely running out, but that wasn’t ‘woeful’ 

Indeed.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,464]

1 hour ago, repman said:

if you mean the one that he put over the top

yes, that was the one I meant. Really appreciate the full reply, which makes a lot of sense

[canarybubbles 1,937]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'm not sure people would be desperate to find that very basic positive had it been Sargent or Idah missing as badly as Tzolis did.

Your comment assumes that either Sargent or Idah would have been there in the first place. They wouldn't. That requires a footballing brain, which is something neither of them has shown the slightest hint of having.

[hogesar 9,722]

3 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Your comment assumes that either Sargent or Idah would have been there in the first place. They wouldn't. That requires a footballing brain, which is something neither of them has shown the slightest hint of having.

It was Sargent's footballing brain that played it to him in the first place. And playing on the left, all Tzolis done is sit on the far post, which Hernandez has done equally this season. Tzolis did not to anything special to create the space, watch the replays. 

[Google Bot 3,298]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'm not sure people would be desperate to find that very basic positive had it been Sargent or Idah missing as badly as Tzolis did.

I prefer to see a player gamble on making that run, and going for the target first time, over one who is behind the play and subsequently runs out wide and the ball to be moved backwards. 

Tzolis and Sarge generally seem to link well on the field, and while you think it's a very basic positive - I think it demonstrates a lot of what we're missing.

[hogesar 9,722]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I prefer to see a player gamble on making that run, and going for the target first time, over one who is behind the play and subsequently runs out wide and the ball to be moved backwards. 

Tzolis and Sarge generally seem to link well on the field, and while you think it's a very basic positive - I think it demonstrates a lot of what we're missing.

It wasn't really a run. He just stood at the far post from Aarons cross which anyone playing on the left would do. 

I don't think he should have scored by the way, it was a difficult chance. I just don't think Idah would be awarded the same luxury from fans.

[canarybubbles 1,937]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It was Sargent's footballing brain that played it to him in the first place. And playing on the left, all Tzolis done is sit on the far post, which Hernandez has done equally this season. Tzolis did not to anything special to create the space, watch the replays. 

Fair enough, my criticism of Sargent was unfair. He doesn't lack a footballing brain, he lacks basic skills with a ball, and I suspect he is too old to ever gain them. He will have a decent career probably, but that lack of ability to trap a football will always limit him IMO.

As for Idah, I don't want to kick a man when he's down because I know he's become the official scapegoat on here, but I struggle to see how he can have any kind of career at higher levels.

 

 

[Google Bot 3,298]

12 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It wasn't really a run. He just stood at the far post from Aarons cross which anyone playing on the left would do. 

He stepped back to make sure he was on-side then timed his run as Sarge went up.  Far from 'just' standing at the far post, he reacted to both phases of play.

[Robert N. LiM 4,464]

23 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

He stepped back to make sure he was on-side then timed his run as Sarge went up.  Far from 'just' standing at the far post, he reacted to both phases of play

Good post. There is definitely a player there. Going to be a good test of Wagner's coaching attributes next season. And @hogesar's posting attributes. 😉

[Capt. Pants 4,274]

Seeing the highlights it was a difficult chance as the bounce of the ball from Sargent's header is a bit unkind on Tzolis.

Sargent should maybe on reflection cushioned a header to Kamara who was totally unmarked.

It's all part of the lack of quality from our attacking players.

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

Frankly I'm not concerned about the Tzolis 'miss'. It was awkward and he took it first time.

Far too many of our strikers however now take 1 touch too many and a half chance is gone.

[PockthorpePete 331]

2 hours ago, Google Bot said:

He stepped back to make sure he was on-side then timed his run as Sarge went up.  Far from 'just' standing at the far post, he reacted to both phases of play.

He would have been better to have 'flicked' it with his right. Players at his level should be reasonably competent with the other foot. However had one of the first half chances been taken we would not be having this conversation.

As tome, I am over the moon. Go back a few weeks when we were 4 points adrift, I would not have believed we could pull it back to a point off 5th. And  given that the three above have to play each other (two games apiece) it means no two of them can reach our maximum of a possible 76 points. Therefore, it is now in our hands.

This does not seem to be grasped by others. iI's ours to win (playoff place). That is how far we have come since Good Friday..... blo ody excellent Friday if you ask me.

[Ian 1,136]

Had we not have failed to score in 270 minutes at Carrow Road people would probably have put it down to "one of those days".

We made more than enough decent chances to expect at least one to roll in.

The real question is why do we show very high quality finishing away from home, yet below average at home?

[BroadstairsR 2,199]

12 hours ago, Ian said:

Had we not have failed to score in 270 minutes at Carrow Road people would probably have put it down to "one of those days".

We made more than enough decent chances to expect at least one to roll in.

The real question is why do we show very high quality finishing away from home, yet below average at home?

I wouldn't know, but apparently the atmosphere can be a bit toxic at Carrow Road these days, with sections of the support more keen to boo than cheer, with individual players habitually being mocked and with a generally down-beat air about the place.

This is not particularly blaming the support because a degree of discontent is probably more than justified. Nor am I doing a Dean Smith here, but this general malaise from the stands cannot but diminish the confidence of those performing in the yellow.  

It might be a chicken and egg situation whereby the team gets something of what it deserves, but it does seem that results (h v a) speak for themselves.

Justified or not, is it too much to expect grievances to be shelved for, at least, this important run-in when the team needs to be encouraged to perform to the best of its ability?

No doubt, if we do get to Wembley, the yellow-festooned hordes will be in their thousands on the A11 wallowing in the prospects of another fabulous and fruitful day out. A certain (minority?) section might be aware that they, themselves, have hardly deserved it.

Edited April 12, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[canarydan23 4,060]

3 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

I wouldn't know, but apparently the atmosphere can be a bit toxic at Carrow Road these days, with sections of the support more keen to boo than cheer, with individual players habitually being mocked and with a generally down-beat air about the place.

This is not particularly blaming the support because a degree of discontent is probably more than justified. Nor am I doing a Dean Smith here, but this general malaise from the stands cannot but diminish the confidence of those performing in the yellow.  

It might be a chicken and egg situation whereby the team gets something of what it deserves, but it does seem that results (h v a) speak for themselves.

Justified or not, is it too much to expect grievances to be shelved for, at least, this important run-in when the team needs to be encouraged to perform to the best of its ability?

No doubt, if we do get to Wembley, the yellow-festooned hordes will be in their thousands on the A11 wallowing in the prospects of another fabulous and fruitful day out. A certain (minority?) section might be aware that they, themselves, have hardly deserved it.

The crowd started lively and positive on Monday. It died when the performance did.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

14 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

The crowd started lively and positive on Monday. It died when the performance did.

In other words it's not support; it's merely consumer reaction, which has created an environment where our players are happier, more relaxed, and confident outside of Carrow Road away from the bulk of fans.

If I went to games, I'd be embarrassed by that.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,541]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

In other words it's not support; it's merely consumer reaction, which has created an environment where our players are happier, more relaxed, and confident outside of Carrow Road away from the bulk of fans.

If I went to games, I'd be embarrassed by that.

 

Maybe football is just becoming more and more of a product. Maybe it already is. Especially higher up the football league chain. Go to a non league team and expectations and the whole experience is markedly different of course. A loss is one of those things. A player having an awful game is a subject for myrrh. There is a darker humour but nevertheless there is a solidity in support. It's the same with the managerial merry-go-round we see every year. No long term attempt to stick with a vision. If you are lucky you might get a 5 year plan 😅....we used to have one of those. We nearly even stuck at it all the way through but decided to bail out.

Consumerism (even Roy Keane's prawn sandwich comments ....scampi for us🙂 was a reference) is a good term. Look at the prices to 'support' your team. Folk want a return for the money at the end of the day. For some though being a fan remains a love for life. Such fans tend to be less critical (on the whole) - I think. And the older you get the more you consider the passing of time and re-evaluate what's really important in life.

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

It was not a simple chance. Tzolis is having to go away from goal to get to the ball, so the angle is narrowing all the time, and he has to hook the ball back, which to make matters worse is bouncing up. It would have been very hard to get a shot on target.

[Soldier on 160]

8 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

It was not a simple chance. Tzolis is having to go away from goal to get to the ball, so the angle is narrowing all the time, and he has to hook the ball back, which to make matters worse is bouncing up. It would have been very hard to get a shot on target.

Would also add that Tzolis created / contributed more in his short cameo than Marquinhos did in 90 minutes. Wish we would give him more minutes and try and develop a player that we own !

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Maybe football is just becoming more and more of a product. Maybe it already is. Especially higher up the football league chain. Go to a non league team and expectations and the whole experience is markedly different of course. A loss is one of those things. A player having an awful game is a subject for myrrh. There is a darker humour but nevertheless there is a solidity in support. It's the same with the managerial merry-go-round we see every year. No long term attempt to stick with a vision. If you are lucky you might get a 5 year plan 😅....we used to have one of those. We nearly even stuck at it all the way through but decided to bail out.

Consumerism (even Roy Keane's prawn sandwich comments ....scampi for us🙂 was a reference) is a good term. Look at the prices to 'support' your team. Folk want a return for the money at the end of the day. For some though being a fan remains a love for life. Such fans tend to be less critical (on the whole) - I think. And the older you get the more you consider the passing of time and re-evaluate what's really important in life.

I think top-level football is a product to an extent, yes, but at it's core it remains an authentic competitive sport where two sets of players play a game according to a set of rules. Even at the level of Man City and Real Madrid, where the very best players fall over themselves to sign for them, there are no guarantees of success. To discredit Monday's performance as 'awful' as some choose to do  denies Rotherham any credit for turning up looking to compete to walk away from Carrow Road with something.

I don't often watch other games, but I happened to be in the bar with some Arsenal-supporting friends when the Liverpool-Arsenal game was on the other day; the difference between that and us in terms of quality was massive. It got me wondering whether our problem is that people think that's what we should be like simply because what seems like a lot of money goes into our club, even if in reality it's a tiny fraction of what goes into clubs like them?

Did the Farke era ruin Norwich permanently by providing something that created the illusion of being something like the top level of the Premier League when facing championship-level competition? Is the way that brand of football captivated everybody going to doom all our players to the criticism of a jaded  despondent, but vocally discontented section of the fan base who refuse to look for positives in favour of dwelling on the negatives of not passing the 'eye test'?

Edited April 12, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie