Loans

[PockthorpePete 331]

Is there any requirement for us to give loan players a certain number of games ? I'm not sure whether Marquis or Ramsey always earned their place. What happens when they are out injured, Hayden, or with us Mumba and Springett ?

[CANARYKING 644]

I fail to see what Marquis brings, totally anonymous 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,864]

Ramsey was one of our best players when he was here, and if we didn't play Marquinhos, what other options do we have right now? Possibly Tzolis with Hernandez moving to the right, or maybe Idah or Sargent out there, which hasn't worked all season?

[ged in the onion bag 857]

They offer nothing… take Ramsey, kept our own players out of the team and what for, are we getting promoted?  No

Take Marquinhos, as anonymous as Tzolis who’s sitting on his backside on the bench.  How are we supposed to instill any confidence in that lad (and possibly get some value from him) if he can’t get a game ahead of a loan player or a forward when the team is going nowhere?  
 

Loans, understandable in the EPL if they bring experience…. An absolute waste in the Championship where we need to develop the team.  
 

Season completely wasted.

[CDMullins 446]

1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Ramsey was one of our best players when he was here, and if we didn't play Marquinhos, what other options do we have right now? Possibly Tzolis with Hernandez moving to the right, or maybe Idah or Sargent out there, which hasn't worked all season?

I'd rather watch Tzolis do nothing,

Than Marquinhos do nothing.

He must be the only Brazilian that can't beat a man and is so one footed.

[Branston Pickle 3,696]

48 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

They offer nothing… take Ramsey, kept our own players out of the team and what for, are we getting promoted?  No

Loans, understandable in the EPL if they bring experience…. An absolute waste in the Championship where we need to develop the team.  
 

Season completely wasted.

That’s just not correct - there’s next-to-no successful sides these days who don’t have loans in key positions - just this season, Burnley have 4, 3 of whom have played every game they can; Sheff U have 4, including two of their main players McAtee and Doyle from Man C.  I could go on.

If anything, we’ve underused the loan market this season - just because we’ve not ended up with players you like, doesn’t mean it isn’t something we should use; that’s just naive in the extreme.

[canarybubbles 1,946]

7 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

That’s just not correct - there’s next-to-no successful sides these days who don’t have loans in key positions - just this season, Burnley have 4, 3 of whom have played every game they can; Sheff U have 4, including two of their main players McAtee and Doyle from Man C.  I could go on.

If anything, we’ve underused the loan market this season - just because we’ve not ended up with players you like, doesn’t mean it isn’t something we should use; that’s just naive in the extreme.

What you say may be generally true, but Webber's record with loanees (except of course for Skipp) is so poor that we'd be better off without them. Look at the mess he made in the last PL season - Williams was half-decent but the other three were terrible. Ramsey was OK, but we probably have Smith to thank for that (his one good contribution to NCFC?) but Marquinhos is Webber back to his usual form. Marquinhos is either not ready or not very good and we are effectively paying through the nose to blood a player for Arsenal without any benefit ourselves.

[Branston Pickle 3,696]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

What you say may be generally true, but Webber's record with loanees (except of course for Skipp) is so poor that we'd be better off without them. Look at the mess he made in the last PL season - Williams was half-decent but the other three were terrible. Ramsey was OK, but we probably have Smith to thank for that (his one good contribution to NCFC?) but Marquinhos is Webber back to his usual form. Marquinhos is either not ready or not very good and we are effectively paying through the nose to blood a player for Arsenal without any benefit ourselves.

It’s fair to knock our usage of loans - some have added very little to our squad - but that’s down to Webber and poor usage of the system.  Obviously in an ideal world you’d not use it, but the better sides definitely use it and use it well. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

42 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

It’s fair to knock our usage of loans - some have added very little to our squad - but that’s down to Webber and poor usage of the system.  Obviously in an ideal world you’d not use it, but the better sides definitely use it and use it well. 

Agreed, I haven't checked, but I suspect every team who has gone up in the past few seasons has been at least partly reliant on loan players.

It is also a damning indictment on Webber, as the loan market appears to be such an easy thing to use to improve your squad as team challenging for promotion do it successfully every single season. As has been said, Webber's use of it has been absolutely diabolical whilst his peers smash it.

2022-23
Hayden - Useless
Ramsey - Poor start, started to come good, got injured
Marquinhos - Useless and is currently starving our own player of chances to improve

2021-22
Gilmour - Words cannot do justice to how poor this one was
Williams - Not too bad, but given he was occasionally benched for Giannoulis, didn't significantly improve us
Kabak - Useless
Normann- Useless but for a few matches

2020-21
Skipp, Quintilla, Giannoulis and Gibson, all good to great loan signings and we get promoted

2019-20
Roberts - Useless
Duda - Useless
Fahrmann - Waste of a loan
Amadou - Useless but for one good game

2018-19
Passlack - Bit of a waste of a loan
Rhodes - Great loan signing and made a significant contribution

2017-18
Gunn, Reed and Leitner all decent loan signings
Edwards - A punt, but ultimately a poor loan

Three of those seasons represent a catastrophic failure to maximise the loan market to our benefit. And for clubs on a budget, maximising the loan market it crucial. Webber just can't manage it. The one season he properly did a good job with it we got promoted.
 

[ged in the onion bag 857]

9 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

That’s just not correct - there’s next-to-no successful sides these days who don’t have loans in key positions - just this season, Burnley have 4, 3 of whom have played every game they can; Sheff U have 4, including two of their main players McAtee and Doyle from Man C.  I could go on.

If anything, we’ve underused the loan market this season - just because we’ve not ended up with players you like, doesn’t mean it isn’t something we should use; that’s just naive in the extreme.

You’re completely missing the points.   Burnley and Sheff United are going up with what seems the nucleus of a half decent (and at least) competitive team!   We are going backwards playing other teams players at the expense of developing ones that might actually be good enough with games and experience.     They can’t get that sitting on the bench, unselected or in the 21s can they.

How do we develop our own players (which is what the philosophy is) with loans in the way.    Usually ineffective ones at that!    Burnley had to get in loans as they lost a load of players in any event and for all the world it seemed they had little plan for this due to the massive debt.

You can’t compare us to anyone else, especially when they have had success both on the pitch and in recruitment.    Wasted season like I said at the start…. We were never good enough and it needed a rebuild.    

[hogesar 9,760]

Our last two transfer windows we've really failed to utilise the loan market effectively.

As for Marquinhos - I can see exactly why he is starting ahead of Tzolis. He hasn't offered any sort of an attacking threat (although had a decent shot saved yesterday) - but he does defend well and doesn't fall over everytime someone comes near him. With Tzolis it's like playing with 10 men sometimes.

[Google Bot 3,329]

You can see Marquinhos has something in his locker, but he seems miles off from realising it.  He stops dead with the ball and many times it goes backwards, it could be that he's used to playing in teams with better off the ball movement though.  Sarge is a **** for standing with an opponent between him and whoever is in possession.

As above, if a loanee isn't improving your squad significantly then you may as well be providing your own players the experience and knowledge of first team football. 

Tzolis was involved in so much more and yet only came on with 10 mins remaining.

[Michael Starr 521]

24 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

You’re completely missing the points.   Burnley and Sheff United are going up with what seems the nucleus of a half decent (and at least) competitive team!   We are going backwards playing other teams players at the expense of developing ones that might actually be good enough with games and experience.     They can’t get that sitting on the bench, unselected or in the 21s can they.

How do we develop our own players (which is what the philosophy is) with loans in the way.    Usually ineffective ones at that!    Burnley had to get in loans as they lost a load of players in any event and for all the world it seemed they had little plan for this due to the massive debt.

You can’t compare us to anyone else, especially when they have had success both on the pitch and in recruitment.    Wasted season like I said at the start…. We were never good enough and it needed a rebuild.    

What players do we develop though. Is there anyone waiting because Kamara looks a million miles off.

[Ulfotto 644]

Loan Signing Rules 101

The loan signing (unless covering for a long term injury ) MUST be significantly better than the players owned by the club receiving the loan.

If this is not the case it is a waste of time for all parties.

 

[Michael Starr 521]

10 hours ago, CDMullins said:

I'd rather watch Tzolis do nothing,

Than Marquinhos do nothing.

He must be the only Brazilian that can't beat a man and is so one footed.

Marquinhos is getting the best out of Sara which I'm fine with. I actually quite like him. He gives us directness along with Hernandez.

[ged in the onion bag 857]

7 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

What players do we develop though. Is there anyone waiting because Kamara looks a million miles off.

Gibbs has missed loads of opportunities so has Omobamidele and they are only in now out of desperation!    Tzolis isn’t getting a run.   Idah has never had a proper opportunity at Centre Forward, neither has Sargent, Springett and Mumba are elsewhere so at least getting a game.   

All held back as we desperately seek promotion.   It’s  a ridiculous wasted opportunity when promotion was and is never viable with this deficient group.

Edited April 11, 2023 by ged in the onion bag

[Branston Pickle 3,696]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

You’re completely missing the points.   Burnley and Sheff United are going up with what seems the nucleus of a half decent (and at least) competitive team!   We are going backwards playing other teams players at the expense of developing ones that might actually be good enough with games and experience.     They can’t get that sitting on the bench, unselected or in the 21s can they.

How do we develop our own players (which is what the philosophy is) with loans in the way.    Usually ineffective ones at that!    Burnley had to get in loans as they lost a load of players in any event and for all the world it seemed they had little plan for this due to the massive debt.

You can’t compare us to anyone else, especially when they have had success both on the pitch and in recruitment.    Wasted season like I said at the start…. We were never good enough and it needed a rebuild.    

I certainly wouldn’t agree that Sheff U’s nucleus of a squad is better than ours, and had we brought in equivalent loans we’d have been far better off - that’s precisely the point.

As for them standing in the way of our own, of course there’s an element of that, as there is with any signing.  But it was telling that we preferred to reposition Sorensen at cb yesterday ahead of any youngster, and also preferring two injured players on the bench. 

I think we’re just coming from a different angle, but I do wonder how you think we’d have been able to do the rebuild you mention without loans?

[shefcanary 2,466]

1 hour ago, Branston Pickle said:

I certainly wouldn’t agree that Sheff U’s nucleus of a squad is better than ours, and had we brought in equivalent loans we’d have been far better off - that’s precisely the point.

Agree with you on this - most Blades fans were fearful that the team was too old (Egan / Basham / Robinson / Norwood / Sharp / Baldock) to mount a promotion challenge this season, but the loanee McAtee has saved their season. 

[Capt. Pants 4,284]

I don't think loans out or in seem to be working very well at all, and haven't done for a couple of seasons.

Tzolis in particular has come back so unfit it makes you wonder what rhe hell Twente were doing.

Mumba has been a success at Plymouth from an attacking viewpoint, but has been criticised for his defending and now plays in a system we don't use.

The success of incoming loans, with the exception of Skipp, has been pretty tragic really.

 

[ged in the onion bag 857]

1 hour ago, Branston Pickle said:

I certainly wouldn’t agree that Sheff U’s nucleus of a squad is better than ours, and had we brought in equivalent loans we’d have been far better off - that’s precisely the point.

As for them standing in the way of our own, of course there’s an element of that, as there is with any signing.  But it was telling that we preferred to reposition Sorensen at cb yesterday ahead of any youngster, and also preferring two injured players on the bench. 

I think we’re just coming from a different angle, but I do wonder how you think we’d have been able to do the rebuild you mention without loans?

I have a number of observations on that… first, this forum is rammed full of posters who think we are better than we are and all of a sudden the penny is dropping that we aren’t.     

I can see no evidence that player for player we are as good or better than Sheff Utd.   What I would say with some certainty is that their squad will be much more ‘competitive’ than ours next season when they go up.   Since they are set up to defend better.   They may still struggle!

I have held this position on development since we got relegated, not recently so it’s unfair to quote simply Saturday since we’ve also got lots of injuries and players out on loan.    What I said then has come to pass and it’s been a wasted season where we’ve failed to develop Tzolis, Sargent (if there is actually anything to develop in them), Omobamidele, Gibbs, Sorensen, McCallum, Nunez, Idah for example.   Their values have not increased, and their experience remains limited…….. and we’re still not getting promoted (thankfully).

Not just the academy youngsters but our signings should have been designed for development, not promotion since we are nowhere near the level and had lost our identity as a collective.   
 

Take the CDM for example, that’s the fifth (yes 5) season we’ve had no employed screen in front of the defence!    We had one loan (Skipp) who was fabulous but was never staying beyond the season and that loan left us with a gaping void we couldn’t fill.     We’ve still got McLean doing that job and if we want to aspire to be in the EPL, then he needed offloading for something better after Farke’s first relegation.   
 

So how do you rebuild with loans then, how does that work?    How have the loans  contributed to this season’s promotion and development?   

[canarybubbles 1,946]

4 hours ago, Michael Starr said:

Marquinhos is getting the best out of Sara which I'm fine with. I actually quite like him. He gives us directness along with Hernandez.

Directness? Sorry, I can't agree. I don't remember him going past a player during his whole spell here. Not once. The contrast between the energy that Onel brings to one wing - even if he often lacks the final pass, as we all acknowledge - and Marquinhos' turgid refusal to try to do anything inventive or imaginative or courageous is really stark.

Sara is getting the best out of Sara. Nothing to do with Marquinhos.

[PockthorpePete 331]

No one sees to know the answer to that.  But most seem to recognise we have not done to well out of incoming loanees over the past few seasons. In fact we don't seem to have got many decent players out of the signings either.. And the excellent young players have signed are the very few out of an enormous number we have signed, but it hasn't worked out. Perhaps that is the nature of the game. Kiss so many frogs etc.

And in reply to above , an interesting chat after the game with a fervent supporter f what I term 'the 'suicide squad'. Those wanting us to stay in the Championship next season. His reason being that we will 'have a better chance', now Wagner is here. (whereas he won't be if we get promoted ?). There is every likelihood that one of Everton or Leeds will drop down. They will throw far more money than we could dream of, at getting back up. This is one of the easier seasons. Hence, Millwall and Luton in the top six. We need to go up when we can, if only for the financial side of things. And we only have to be better than three other teams to stay up. Getting out of the Championship requires us to be better than 21 other teams.

My only worry is not that we cannot survive. But is Webber up to signing the right players. The last few seasons certainly give rise to concerns. Not just with the loans

[CardiffCanary 131]

7 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Agreed, I haven't checked, but I suspect every team who has gone up in the past few seasons has been at least partly reliant on loan players.

It is also a damning indictment on Webber, as the loan market appears to be such an easy thing to use to improve your squad as team challenging for promotion do it successfully every single season. As has been said, Webber's use of it has been absolutely diabolical whilst his peers smash it.

2022-23
Hayden - Useless
Ramsey - Poor start, started to come good, got injured
Marquinhos - Useless and is currently starving our own player of chances to improve

2021-22
Gilmour - Words cannot do justice to how poor this one was
Williams - Not too bad, but given he was occasionally benched for Giannoulis, didn't significantly improve us
Kabak - Useless
Normann- Useless but for a few matches

2020-21
Skipp, Quintilla, Giannoulis and Gibson, all good to great loan signings and we get promoted

2019-20
Roberts - Useless
Duda - Useless
Fahrmann - Waste of a loan
Amadou - Useless but for one good game

2018-19
Passlack - Bit of a waste of a loan
Rhodes - Great loan signing and made a significant contribution

2017-18
Gunn, Reed and Leitner all decent loan signings
Edwards - A punt, but ultimately a poor loan

Three of those seasons represent a catastrophic failure to maximise the loan market to our benefit. And for clubs on a budget, maximising the loan market it crucial. Webber just can't manage it. The one season he properly did a good job with it we got promoted.
 

Matthias Norman did have a great long throw 🤣

[CDMullins 446]

7 hours ago, Michael Starr said:

Marquinhos is getting the best out of Sara which I'm fine with. I actually quite like him. He gives us directness along with Hernandez.

What utter nonsense.

What directness?

He's never beaten a man, he's never gone past his full back, which is a good thing, since he can't kick the ball with his right foot.

He occasionally runs across the pitch before dragging a ridiculous shot wide or over but he's shown absolutely nothing.

He slows down our attack on that right side, very Robert Snodgrass 

[damn that Ralph Coates! 47]

agree about many of the comments...

Marquinhos won't be ever going to the byeline unless he is put on the other side of the pitch! (Sargent would probably have liked that as he is strong in the air, and Pukki makes the right runs too) Opposing left fullbacks all put out the red carpet for him to go past them but he repeatedly declines.

Hayden may have something about him, but he hides it well from the spectators.

 

 

 

 

[PockthorpePete 331]

"He slows down our attack on that right side"

That was one of the problems in the early part of the season. Slow build up then sat with the ball outside the box, unwilling to put it into a packed 18 yrd box. Whereas the two goals v Blackburn were from pass into space, and wham bang thank you mam. Unfortunately Pukki seems t have lost that ability to finish every time now when balls are put through (Idah never had that ability at anytime). Hopefully Tzolis gets a start v Boro and Dowel, Rowe both return soon. I suspect there is not that much work done on checking loanees, other than they are PL players so they must be good.

[PockthorpePete 331]

10 minutes ago, damn that Ralph Coates! said:

Hayden may have something about him, but he hides it well from the spectators.

Keeps it Hayden, so to speak

[norfolkngood 1,091]

19 hours ago, CDMullins said:

I'd rather watch Tzolis do nothing,

Than Marquinhos do nothing.

He must be the only Brazilian that can't beat a man and is so one footed.

Webber has found the only Arsenal youth / under 23 player that is no good 

[norfolkngood 1,091]

46 minutes ago, damn that Ralph Coates! said:

 

Hayden may have something about him, but he hides it well from the spectators.

 

 

 

 

Hayden has been valuable this season !! 

The Medical team told me the overtime has been very good and they have all bought a new Car 

[The Raptor 1,239]

Maybe Norwich are the problem not all the loan players. We couldn't even make Harry Kane look decent ...