Biggest disappointment with Wagner is

[Soldier on 172]

When he joined I was much encouraged by his comments that he wanted to play players in their natural  positions. He seems to have lost the plot in this regard with idah and Sargent shoved out wide and the max midfield experiment.

 

long for Farke ball . Just watched the Millwall 4-3 winner and the composure we were able to play with under pressure.

 

New heroes soon hopefully.

[Ken Hairy 3,799]

Does make you wonder how much the rumours of Webber interfering in selection to get certain players in the shop window is true? 

[nutty nigel 7,656]

That rumour seems all a bit Tom Smith coffee but like with that it suits the haters to run with it. Why isn't it Attanasio picking the team? 

[Chelm Canary 404]

We had a mini resurgence when Wagner took over but that dissolved pretty quickly. 

We definitely need a refresh over the summer. I don't think anyone can blame Wagner at this point - we have an average to good championship squad and that's about where we are. 

We've made some poor signings in the last few seasons and expensive ones at that. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,820]

He's been unfortunate that having stumbled upon something that looked like it worked in the early weeks with Dowell and Hernandez wide, both of those are now injured. The replacement wide players ,whoever they are , be it Sargent wide, Tzolis , Idah or Marquinos just arent as productive

[lake district canary 4,562]

9 minutes ago, Soldier on said:

When he joined I was much encouraged by his comments that he wanted to play players in their natural  positions. He seems to have lost the plot in this regard with idah and Sargent shoved out wide and the max midfield experiment.

long for Farke ball . Just watched the Millwall 4-3 winner and the composure we were able to play with under pressure.

New heroes soon hopefully.

Still hoping that the heroes can emerge this season.  That's straw clutching, I know, but there are good players in there and even if they don't get in the play offs this season, Sara and Nunez (if they stay) are two that could be better next season.   

I wonder what it would be like had Farke stayed. Relegated, no doubt, but with the ability twice proven, that he could build a team to be at the top of the championship. Smith was a dismal failure and Webber really messed up there. Wagner offers some hope, but I don't see a methodology that is based on anything other than work incredibly hard and press like mad. Few teams can keep that kind of football up for 90 minutes  week after week. 

There is still time this season, time for players to step up and get us in the play offs, but it will take a huge effort of will to break out of the losing mentality we currently have. Farke could have done it, I am quite sure - he did it after the first relegation and even started doing that in the second PL season by getting us harder to beat and then winning away at Brentford, before he was disgracefully cast aside. 

Wagner has it all to do. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,866]

Idah and Sargent on the wing has never worked and never will. That two managers are now trying even though this is obvious if baffling

[nutty nigel 7,656]

Farke was never going to stay. If he hadn't gone when he did he'd have gone before the end of that season. There was no patience left. Part of me is glad it happened when it did. I'd have hated another successful manager to have gone through what Worthy went through. 

But now he's gone and Smith is gone it's a shame there's no patience. A lot of posters on here would have our revolving door spinning faster than Watford's.

 

[king canary 7,703]

9 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Idah and Sargent on the wing has never worked and never will. That two managers are now trying even though this is obvious if baffling

You can maybe do one or the other. I get the idea that if you have Pukki upfront then you might want a more physical player on one front as an out ball. But both makes no sense. I wasn't impressed by him v Stoke but we might as well give Tzolis a run to see if he can get his confidence back.

[Robert N. LiM 4,655]

52 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I wonder what it would be like had Farke stayed. Relegated, no doubt, but with the ability twice proven, that he could build a team to be at the top of the championship.

I think this season has shown, if there was any doubt, how hard it is to bounce back from relegation. And while it was a mammoth achievement on Farke's part to do so last time, there's no doubt he was helped by playing in empty stadiums (just as doing so really hindered us in Project Restart). I love Daniel like a sickness and its cure but I very much doubt he could have repeated the trick. And, like @nutty nigel, I am very relieved that things didn't turn sour for him here.

[repman 640]

My biggest gripe with Wagner is his subs, they're always like for like instead of trying to change how we're doing things.

[CANARYKING 644]

If Nunez, Dowell and Hernandez had been fit he wouldn’t have

[percy varco 203]

Playing players out of position. Not being brave enough to change things

[BroadstairsR 2,226]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think this season has shown, if there was any doubt, how hard it is to bounce back from relegation. And while it was a mammoth achievement on Farke's part to do so last time, there's no doubt he was helped by playing in empty stadiums (just as doing so really hindered us in Project Restart). I love Daniel like a sickness and its cure but I very much doubt he could have repeated the trick. And, like @nutty nigel, I am very relieved that things didn't turn sour for him here.

Surely a club with the limited resources of NCFC attempting to play with the big boys is best served by building an identity around a manager who has a built a style backed up with results in the way Daniel Farke did at Carrow Road. Continuity, stability, direction.

I was not thinking a Dario Gradi/Crewe situation, when at one time I was envisaging  him to be at the club for a long time; ten years or so, through thick and thin. It seemed a two-way fit.

We all get swayed by results and performances at the time, but with hindsight being a wonderful thing, I am now more regretful of the sacking than I was at the time. I even forgive him for his perceived intransigence over Cantwell, Tzolis and others as probably, in hindsight again, being justified. We have continuously gone downhill since the day Daniel Farke was unceremoniously shown the door.

I now resent Stuart Webber acting like a "Billy Big ****" and swinging the axe on a man who clearly knows much, much more about the game than he ever will. A man whose approach to the job was not tainted by the mercenary image that he as Sporting Director, or whatever, continually portrays.

I wonder how many of us now regret the sacking of DF and want Webber out of Carrow Road now?

Edited April 2, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[Chelm Canary 404]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

But now he's gone and Smith is gone it's a shame there's no patience. A lot of posters on here would have our revolving door spinning faster than Watford's.

I Have to agree - throwing managers at the problem, because we've previously been spoiled in this league is not the answer. 

I'm fully behind Wagner.

I also agree on the Farke situation, although I want to add something - I hope he comes back one day. Maybe I'm day dreaming. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,655]

38 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Surely a club with the limited resources of NCFC attempting to play with the big boys is best served by building an identity around a manager who has a built a style backed up with results in the way Daniel Farke did at Carrow Road. Continuity, stability, direction.

I agree with that in spirit, and if Webber had come out in October 2021 and said "we have the best possible coach here at NCFC and we're going to back him even if we go down again this season," I would have supported that, against the wide accusations of 'no ambition' that would have ensued, on here, from the trolls at TalkSport, and everywhere in between. It would have been the ultimate in 'ignoring the noise'.

But, given the catastrophic transfer window that summer, we would have probably gone down without even a whimper, and I think we would have struggled to impose ourselves on the Championship this season. I think it would have got harder and harder for Webber to stick with Farke in those circumstances. And even if we had stuck with him and won the Championship again, he'd have been starting a third PL season with two failures behind him - the pressure would have been on right from the start.

I think there's an attractive tendency in football to remember people's qualities and forget their failings. We remember the glorious Farkeball football in the Champs and are already forgetting how dismal we were without the ball in the PL, how often, especially away from home, we were just cannon fodder for teams as average as Palace or West Ham. I think what Webber realised was that Farke's Man City-lite approach was never going to work on our budget in the PL. But we just didn't have the players to play a more pragmatic style, so I think Webber was caught between two strategies. Given that we couldn't become Dyche-era Burnley overnight, you might be right that we would have been better off sticking to Farkeball (or finding a successor to DF who could have made it more defensively solid), rather than flailing about with whatever it was Smith was trying to do. But I suspect that without Emi and Skipp (or viable successors in those positions) we were doomed whatever decision was made about the coach.

That has to come down to Webber in the end, and I totally get why people are angry with him. It looks like his time here is going to end in failure, despite getting pretty close to success along the way. But I find it hard to get too upset with him personally. The bottom line is that doing what we tried to do on our budget is bloody hard. The fact that Brentford have done it makes it seem as though we should have, but I think their achievement is exceptional, rather than ours being an egregious failure. We got close, blew it and never recovered, basically.

This has become a bit of a rambling reply as I try to work out what I think. But in the end, when you say

51 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

with hindsight being a wonderful thing, I am now more regretful of the sacking than I was at the time.

I share that feeling emotionally - it would have been great if Daniel had stayed and begun to build another great Farkeball team - but I also have a strong feeling that it would have ended in tears, and acrimony that he wouldn't have deserved, and which would have broken my heart a little bit.

[Robert N. LiM 4,655]

48 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

I also agree on the Farke situation, although I want to add something - I hope he comes back one day. Maybe I'm day dreaming. 

He'd be a great Sporting Director...

[canarybubbles 1,953]

I am disappointed with Wagner that he hasn't been willing to drop one of Pukki and Sargent and seems to be repeating the same mistake of trying to squeeze them both into a system that suits neither. I was very disappointed yesterday to see what looked like hoofball (aimed, bizarrely, at Pukki's head.) I hate to admit it, but yesterday looked as bad as Smith at his most clueless.

On the other hand, with Dowell and Hernandez injured, does Wagner have much choice? Marquinhos looks decidedly average so far, and even if, like me, you think Tzolis has potential, he clearly doesn't seem fit enough to last more than one half of football at best. I don't know why we haven't repeated the experiment of McLean-Sorensen-Sara in midfield, which seemed to work quite well, and have opted instead for what looks like Smith's abandoning of the midfield space to the opposition. I find it hard to believe that Webber is putting pressure on him to play in a certain formation or include certain players, but Wagner seems to have started making odd decisions for someone who seems pretty clued up on strategy.

If we fail to beat Blackburn, I think we can safely say that this season is definitely over. I'm still hopeful that Wagner can revive our club next season, but I'm less convinced than I was a few matches ago. He deserves the chance, though. He inherited a pile of cr*p and I'd be interested to see what he can do with a clean slate and a transfer window.

[Capt. Pants 4,325]

I'm disappointed the football of late has been dull and boring. Yes, we've had a few injuries but 1 goal in 4 games and having to wait until the 92nd minute yesterday to see a shot on target really isn't great.

He seems to be running out of ideas faster than we are losing players. Why not give 3-5-2 a go? Can't be worse than the current dross.

[BroadstairsR 2,226]

23 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

"I share that feeling emotionally - it would have been great if Daniel had stayed and begun to build another great Farkeball team - but I also have a strong feeling that it would have ended in tears, and acrimony that he wouldn't have deserved, and which would have broken my heart a little bit."

May be, but we've had two managers since, and it still looks like ending in tears. With hindsight (yes) I would have preferred failure under Farke as I do not think that, in a million years that the rubbish served up this season by those two managers, would have been possible under him. Even with a Farke failure to even reach the play-offs, I feel the future would seem less bleak.

Just how to apportion the blame for our rapid decline accurately between lack of resources/Webber/coaching is probably impossible. But the manager gets the smallest share in my book.

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I don't grt the selections or the style. I never dreamed we would hit as many long balls with him as coach.

[Robert N. LiM 4,655]

2 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

May be, but we've had two managers since, and it still looks like ending in tears. With hindsight (yes) I would have preferred failure under Farke as I do not think that, in a million years that the rubbish served up this season by those two managers, would have been possible under him. Even with a Farke failure to even reach the play-offs, I feel the future would seem less bleak.

Just how to apportion the blame accurately between lack of resources/Webber/coaching is probably impossible. But the manager gets the smallest share in my book.

 

Think that view is absolutely fair enough. And I agree 100% with the final sentence.

[Capt. Pants 4,325]

17 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I don't grt the selections or the style. I never dreamed we would hit as many long balls with him as coach.

Yesterday we seemed to be hoofing it up to Pukki as much as Sheff Utd were doing with McBurnie. To be fair the latter was equally useless.

[lake district canary 4,562]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think this season has shown, if there was any doubt, how hard it is to bounce back from relegation. And while it was a mammoth achievement on Farke's part to do so last time, there's no doubt he was helped by playing in empty stadiums (just as doing so really hindered us in Project Restart). I love Daniel like a sickness and its cure but I very much doubt he could have repeated the trick. And, like @nutty nigel, I am very relieved that things didn't turn sour for him here.

I don't think it really would have gone completely sour. He was imo starting to get to grips with the situation at the time he was sacked.  The win at Brentford felt like a turning point and I was flabbergasted about an hour afterwards when news of his sacking came out. It seemed wrong then and it seems wrong now.  I know people say move on but yes, I support Wagner, but sacking DF for Smith just seemed ridiculous at the time - and so it proved. Getting Wagner is a consolation - a returm to the Germanic character that we had under Farke, but as yet, I'm not convinced Wagner will prove as good as Farke at this level. We could have avoided a lot of angst had Webber held his ner ve and supported his coach, rather than "consult the players", which is what he apparently did. Fat lot of good that did.

[canarybubbles 1,953]

3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I don't think it really would have gone completely sour. He was imo starting to get to grips with the situation at the time he was sacked.  The win at Brentford felt like a turning point and I was flabbergasted about an hour afterwards when news of his sacking came out. It seemed wrong then and it seems wrong now.  I know people say move on but yes, I support Wagner, but sacking DF for Smith just seemed ridiculous at the time - and so it proved. Getting Wagner is a consolation - a returm to the Germanic character that we had under Farke, but as yet, I'm not convinced Wagner will prove as good as Farke at this level. We could have avoided a lot of angst had Webber held his ner ve and supported his coach, rather than "consult the players", which is what he apparently did. Fat lot of good that did.

Where did you hear that he consulted the players?

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,157]

The biggest disappointment for me is that we still look nothing like a Wagner side. We're still quite low intensity (although much higher than under Smith to be fair) we don't press and we still pass sideways and backwards too much and nobody can run with the ball at defenses. Just like we looked nothing like a usual Smith side and in Farke's last 3rd of a season we looked nothing like a Farke team. I'm worried that these players simply have no natural chemistry and can't be coached to play a certain way. We look like an international side at times who don't play and train together much and you can't see any pattern or intention in anything we do. 

I get the playing players out of position, he doesn't have a choice atm with the injuries unless he plays Tzolis who chases the ball around like a puppy and has the game intelligence of a doorstop so it kinda has to be strikers in the wide positions right now. 

[repman 640]

1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

I'm disappointed the football of late has been dull and boring. Yes, we've had a few injuries but 1 goal in 4 games and having to wait until the 92nd minute yesterday to see a shot on target really isn't great.

He seems to be running out of ideas faster than we are losing players. Why not give 3-5-2 a go? Can't be worse than the current dross.

The dull football is seemingly the plan nowadays, all the way back to the start of last season with talk of a change of style. The 2 managerial appointments since then have only backed that up. Even Webber said after sacking Smith that they remained supportive of him but fan opinion had reached a boiling point. 

[lake district canary 4,562]

52 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Where did you hear that he consulted the players?

It was quoted at the time that Webber had spoken to senior players.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

Bottom line is we for a good taste of how it can works work under Wagner before injuries, so put away the human resources hats, chill out and go again never season with the off pitch crew that got Huddersfield up.

[Mason 47 1,409]

It's really the central midfield that continues to be the problem. At times we end up in a formation that looks pretty much like a circle of 9 players with Sara in the middle on his own.

I've been wanting to see us drop a striker for an extra midfielder all season. I think we have the players for it, but it means leaving an asset up front out; unfortunately, in trying to play all 3 we have this unenviable situation where all 3 are now out of form and lacking service.

One striker, Sara in the 'Stiepermann', Nunez in the 'Buendia' and whoever is left, well, on the left. Either Gibbs or Sorenson should be fine alongside Wagners newly-controlled Kenny. Seems simple to me.