WAGNER IS IN.

[Indy 3,471]

2 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Sadly that is a problem of the modern world and social media. People seem emboldened to say things online they would not say to someone's face because they know there is no comeback....which in many cases would be a punch in the face!

Funny that Duke, your point is certainly valid and if you read this thread back any criticism of Smith has been in his performance and questioning his attitude to the job, not one person has actually got offensive bar one poster…… I’m all for standing your ground in your opinion, but I draw the line at swearing, and having hissy fits, I don’t find it acceptable on here nor face to face. LYB is in general a decent poster, but goes too far, I have no idea why as I really believe he’s passionate about our club and probably a really nice guy.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

12 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Absolutely, and actually that is exactly why I'm carrying on. I don't care that they're trying to be clever, the fact is that they're needlessly nasty, mean-spirited and unpleasant about the guy after he's gone. At the end of the day, I just don't like people like that. You could say it's more personal objection to their attitudes than anything about Smith specifically.

I think these attitudes pervade the club much more widely. Case in point about Webber and his mountain climbing for charity being treated like a cardinal sin that 'proves' he's just here for the money. The really nasty and derogatory comments about Smith and Jones who stepped in when nobody else would when the club was at a low that always come out when we're on a downward cycle. It's needless, vile abuse, but it's just widely accepted. That's not to say they should be above reasonable critique, but some of the stuff is truly vile.

I don’t disagree with this, clearly Smith does not deserve any personal abuse on here or social media.

But to be clear, I don’t think anything he got during the games was uncalled for, it was unpleasant to experience sure but justified in the context of the performances. It should be remembered that the fan mood turned for the worse way after performances and results already had. The fans rallied right behind the team when we played well as recently as Boro at home just 4ish home games ago - yet we still lost that game! Strange!

Ultimately the same thing happened with Hughton and Worthington and will have happened for every single other club in the country at one point or another. Was it also the fans’ fault for Worthington and Hughton? Or was the correct decision made albeit with some pressure applied to get there in the end?

Yes the fans have been more apathetic this season than many a year, but that is all a result of the existential crisis from last season’s relegation and the self funding model / project. We built for that PL campaign over several seasons and it ended up bitterly disappointing. It’s not the fans fault we’ve failed so miserably at the highest level and now many aren’t so sure about what there is to realistically target in the short to medium term. Fans aren’t up for the challenge as much as they have been, and it doesn’t seem like the players are either. 

If your argument was ‘the fans were quiet this season and personal abuse against Smith should be called out’ - then I’d say totally fair play.

But your argument appears to have always been ‘fan apathy and toxicity only exhibited uniquely by Norwich fans caused our promotion campaign to derail, all the players to lose morale and form and eventually Smith to be sacked once that apathy turned toxic in the Blackburn game, and nothing else is to blame whatsoever’.

You have said this is all ‘irrefutable’ yet it cannot be remotely explained or justified. Your COVID example for Farke’s second promotion success without the fans is total nonsense, as we ended the previous season without fans again in abject failure. 10 losses in a row, 1 goal scored. So are the fans helping or hindering us because I see opposite extremes very clearly happening during the Covid absence?

There is no scenario where it was all the fans’ fault. Even if we take and accept your silly theory that the fans were the only cause for our derailment, then surely there should be serious questions raised of the mentality within our squad - how could we be so weak minded not to push past it when we were top of the league? Other clubs have to get through worse to succeed, other NCFC teams even in the past have overcome far worse negativity to succeed. So why are our players so weak specifically this season? And who is ultimately responsible for ensuring the players are strong-willed and focused on the task at hand? Hmmm…

Then you couple this line of thought of yours with the fact that you haven’t even been to a game this season and are basing it on this messageboard, Twitter and video streams of games. That’s not giving you very solid evidence of how good or bad the fans have been in game, I'm sorry but it just isn’t. And I’m not bashing you for not going to games.

I would advise you to read the social media of ANY other club before you keep bleating on about how bad specifically the Norwich fans are. We are not uniquely toxic. In fact quite the opposite, we have historically held faith in managers and projects a lot longer than other fans would. Hell just look at the average Norwich supporter, we’re notoriously a quiet family / community club with lots of kids and elderly supporters not a bunch of testosterone fuelled ultras demanding instant success.

You’ve even acknowledged yourself how historically positive posters on here have turned - such as LDC - why can’t you go one step further and appreciate that there might be an actual reason for this? He hasn’t been infected like some zombie, he’s just seen that performances and results under Smith were not good enough. 

This has been done to death now, hopefully we can all move on and get behind the new manager. It’ll be interesting to see if he can get more from the team, I think there’s a few gears that could certainly be tapped in to. Maybe we can evaluate how good or bad Smith was really doing a little better in 10 or so games time. Fingers crossed it was the latter for obvious reasons! 

[TIL 1010 5,245]

12 hours ago, Van wink said:

I would also like to welcome Andy Hughes feel comforted in the knowledge that our players will now develop some of the best pointing skills in the League.👈👉☝️

Andy Hughes has been back at Norwich City since the start of the 2021/22 season when he replaced Neil Adams as head of Loans and Player Pathway Development when Adams was made Webber's deputy Sporting Director.

[nutty nigel 7,900]

Surely you're not suggesting Worthy deserved the carp he got from the fans Hank? It was on a different level to anything any other manager got either before or since. It still baffles me to this day.

[Van wink 2,994]

16 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Andy Hughes has been back at Norwich City since the start of the 2021/22 season when he replaced Neil Adams as head of Loans and Player Pathway Development when Adams was made Webber's deputy Sporting Director.

I would imagine his pointing skills will be particularly useful in ensuring everyone is on the right pathway.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,137]

2 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I don’t disagree with this, clearly Smith does not deserve any personal abuse on here or social media.

But to be clear, I don’t think anything he got during the games was uncalled for, it was unpleasant to experience sure but justified in the context of the performances. It should be remembered that the fan mood turned for the worse way after performances and results already had. The fans rallied right behind the team when we played well as recently as Boro at home just 4ish home games ago - yet we still lost that game! Strange!

Ultimately the same thing happened with Hughton and Worthington and will have happened for every single other club in the country at one point or another. Was it also the fans’ fault for Worthington and Hughton? Or was the correct decision made albeit with some pressure applied to get there in the end?

Yes the fans have been more apathetic this season than many a year, but that is all a result of the existential crisis from last season’s relegation and the self funding model / project. We built for that PL campaign over several seasons and it ended up bitterly disappointing. It’s not the fans fault we’ve failed so miserably at the highest level and now many aren’t so sure about what there is to realistically target in the short to medium term. Fans aren’t up for the challenge as much as they have been, and it doesn’t seem like the players are either. 

If your argument was ‘the fans were quiet this season and personal abuse against Smith should be called out’ - then I’d say totally fair play.

But your argument appears to have always been ‘fan apathy and toxicity only exhibited uniquely by Norwich fans caused our promotion campaign to derail, all the players to lose morale and form and eventually Smith to be sacked once that apathy turned toxic in the Blackburn game, and nothing else is to blame whatsoever’.

You have said this is all ‘irrefutable’ yet it cannot be remotely explained or justified. Your COVID example for Farke’s second promotion success without the fans is total nonsense, as we ended the previous season without fans again in abject failure. 10 losses in a row, 1 goal scored. So are the fans helping or hindering us because I see opposite extremes very clearly happening during the Covid absence?

There is no scenario where it was all the fans’ fault. Even if we take and accept your silly theory that the fans were the only cause for our derailment, then surely there should be serious questions raised of the mentality within our squad - how could we be so weak minded not to push past it when we were top of the league? Other clubs have to get through worse to succeed, other NCFC teams even in the past have overcome far worse negativity to succeed. So why are our players so weak specifically this season? And who is ultimately responsible for ensuring the players are strong-willed and focused on the task at hand? Hmmm…

Then you couple this line of thought of yours with the fact that you haven’t even been to a game this season and are basing it on this messageboard, Twitter and video streams of games. That’s not giving you very solid evidence of how good or bad the fans have been in game, I'm sorry but it just isn’t. And I’m not bashing you for not going to games.

I would advise you to read the social media of ANY other club before you keep bleating on about how bad specifically the Norwich fans are. We are not uniquely toxic. In fact quite the opposite, we have historically held faith in managers and projects a lot longer than other fans would. Hell just look at the average Norwich supporter, we’re notoriously a quiet family / community club with lots of kids and elderly supporters not a bunch of testosterone fuelled ultras demanding instant success.

You’ve even acknowledged yourself how historically positive posters on here have turned - such as LDC - why can’t you go one step further and appreciate that there might be an actual reason for this? He hasn’t been infected like some zombie, he’s just seen that performances and results under Smith were not good enough. 

This has been done to death now, hopefully we can all move on and get behind the new manager. It’ll be interesting to see if he can get more from the team, I think there’s a few gears that could certainly be tapped in to. Maybe we can evaluate how good or bad Smith was really doing a little better in 10 or so games time. Fingers crossed it was the latter for obvious reasons! 

What it boils down to, in my book, is trust in the people working for the club to be working for the club in good faith. I fully believe that Smith and Jones bought the club with an aspiration to make it successful again and make the fans real stakeholders in the club. I believe Webber came to us because he saw an opportunity to contribute to a successful story here voluntarily from a position where he was contributing to Huddersfield's success. I also believe that Webber probably played a huge part in ultimately accepting the implausibility of that project succeeding and the need to change approach by bringing in serious potential investment.

I can respect people questioning decisions, but I refuse to accept arguments based on an implicit belief that the people working for the club aren't invested in trying to make the club succeed and aren't making decisions that they see as being in the best interests of the club, including Dean Smith.

Farke was also a good guy, I enjoyed his time as manager and wish him well. I argued at the time that we were going down anyway so he might as well stay, but equally, if you believe as I did that we were going down anyway, then it does make sense for the people accountable for our success to roll the dice with a change of manager. There's no reason not to respect the sacking of Farke as a genuine best effort in the circumstances, nor is there reason not to believe that the appointment of Smith was a genuine best effort to give us the best chance of success.

To be equally clear, I'd have more sympathy for the toxicity to Smith for the losses at the end if there had been more willingness to back the players more effusively earlier in the season when we were getting results.

Having said all that, I respect that the board made the decision to sack Smith for sound reasons at the time, especially given the choice of replacement.

Specifically regarding LDC, I identify with him a lot with the exception that he's a lot better at reigning in his frustration than I am, but I think, like a lot of people, he has become too invested in the cult of personality around Farke. Farke was a big part of Norwich City for a long time, but he's not bigger than Norwich City, any more than Smith and Jones, Stuart Webber, Mark Attanasio or the board.

At the same time, once you get to the point where you view throwing absolutely everybody out, as is argued not infrequently on here by some, then it seems a bit farcical to say it's even the same club any more.

 

[Robert N. LiM 6,237]

52 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

This has been done to death now, hopefully we can all move on and get behind the new manager. It’ll be interesting to see if he can get more from the team, I think there’s a few gears that could certainly be tapped in to. Maybe we can evaluate how good or bad Smith was really doing a little better in 10 or so games time. Fingers crossed it was the latter for obvious reasons! 

Brilliant post which really should end this discussion. 🤞🏻

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

15 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Hold on tight, it’s melt down time. 

Ah might have to unblock if he's having another meltdown, could do with some entertainment. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

2 hours ago, Van wink said:

I would imagine his pointing skills will be particularly useful in ensuring everyone is on the right pathway.

He looked like an absolute baller compared to Fozzy Fotheringham 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,257]

On 06/01/2023 at 20:49, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Top choice doesn’t mean they wouldn’t explore other options of due diligence. I was told by a very trustworthy source. Same one who told me about the Attanasio deal had been done a few weeks ahead of it being confirmed to the press. 

New article on the Athletic this morning or yesterday from MB which states that you were correct and they did have a look at Parker. That's interesting to me. What on earth did they think would happen approaching a manager who frequently complains about a lack of backing from much wealthier clubs than ours? Hopefully it was just due dilligence and we never actually wanted him because that would've been madness, he has 2 promotions but both were far from convincing and he had a much better squad and bigger budget at both clubs than he'd have here. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Christoph Stiepermann

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

4 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

New article on the Athletic this morning or yesterday from MB which states that you were correct and they did have a look at Parker. That's interesting to me. What on earth did they think would happen approaching a manager who frequently complains about a lack of backing from much wealthier clubs than ours? Hopefully it was just due dilligence and we never actually wanted him because that would've been madness, he has 2 promotions but both were far from convincing and he had a much better squad and bigger budget at both clubs than he'd have here. 

I didn’t really get any feedback about how serious the talks got just that he was initially on the short list. I’ve not managed to wangle out the other 2 names who were on the shortlist of 4 which became 3 after Parker took the Brugge job. 
 

I don’t pay for the Athletic but I’m sure it was a good read. 

[PurpleCanary 6,369]

12 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

I didn’t really get any feedback about how serious the talks got just that he was initially on the short list. I’ve not managed to wangle out the other 2 names who were on the shortlist of 4 which became 3 after Parker took the Brugge job. 
 

I don’t pay for the Athletic but I’m sure it was a good read. 

We will have had a good number of initial candidates. Norwich City is still a well-regarded club with a deserved reputation for giving managers/head coaches time to get it right. So that Parker got onto a shortlist shows he had already been taken seriously.

Hardly surprising, since he has got two promotions from the Championship, and we are trying to get promoted from the Championship.

More generally it disproves the wild claims that there never was a shortlist, or if there was it was Wagner and three no-hopers. Parker was certainly a serious competitor to Wagner, and it is a fair guess at least one of the two others we don’t know about was also. It also would not surprise me if one of those two was putting down a marker for the future.

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

4 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

We will have had a good number of initial candidates. Norwich City is still a well-regarded club with a deserved reputation for giving managers/head coaches time to get it right. So that Parker got onto a shortlist shows he had already been taken seriously.

Hardly surprising, since he has got two promotions from the Championship, and we are trying to get promoted from the Championship.

More generally it disproves the wild claims that there never was a shortlist, or if there was it was Wagner and three no-hopers. Parker was certainly a serious competitor to Wagner, and it is a fair guess at least one of the two others we don’t know about was also. It also would not surprise me if one of those two was putting down a marker for the future.

He would have been a contender had he said he wanted to be considered for the job. My understanding is he didn’t have much interest in it after our feelers went out. 
 

Still not managed to find out who the others were and how serious of a threat they were to Wagner getting the job. 
 

As I understand it the decision was already made effectively before it got out to the board. Private discussions had been held between the Webbers and the majority shareholders in advance to ensure the appointment. Apparently this is a common source of frustration at present with some higher ups at the club who feel decisions are already made in advance one you have the ear of Delia and Michael. 

[Ken Hairy 4,272]

All I can say is thank god Parker went to Brugges, just a younger Dean Smith.

[Indy 3,471]

It’s funny, we all make assumptions and of course there will be a few unemployed managers who would throw a contact into the club, others like Parker, Gerrard would have higher aspirations with more spending power than we can provide. Doesn’t mean that as Purple said he might have been our initial prime target, pretty sure Wagner would have been number 2 and he got the job.

Now did we ever actually interview other potential candidates I can’t say for sure but I doubt it. I believe Wagner was contacted wanted the job and with his connection to this club was offered it. Nothing wrong with that, in fact it’s good to have your prime targets interested to close it up quick.

I doubt there was anyone else seriously considered, might have been had Wagner said he wasn’t interested, we might have ended up with Wilder! Now that would certainly would have been Smith mk2.

[Mr Angry 1,997]

6 hours ago, Indy said:

It’s funny, we all make assumptions and of course there will be a few unemployed managers who would throw a contact into the club, others like Parker, Gerrard would have higher aspirations with more spending power than we can provide. Doesn’t mean that as Purple said he might have been our initial prime target, pretty sure Wagner would have been number 2 and he got the job.

Now did we ever actually interview other potential candidates I can’t say for sure but I doubt it. I believe Wagner was contacted wanted the job and with his connection to this club was offered it. Nothing wrong with that, in fact it’s good to have your prime targets interested to close it up quick.

I doubt there was anyone else seriously considered, might have been had Wagner said he wasn’t interested, we might have ended up with Wilder! Now that would certainly would have been Smith mk2.

Pretty sure that during the Sky commentary of the Watford game that they understood that Webber would be holding interviews with 4 candidates after the match. Doesn’t mean it actually happened of course.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,137]

21 hours ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

He would have been a contender had he said he wanted to be considered for the job. My understanding is he didn’t have much interest in it after our feelers went out. 
 

Still not managed to find out who the others were and how serious of a threat they were to Wagner getting the job. 
 

As I understand it the decision was already made effectively before it got out to the board. Private discussions had been held between the Webbers and the majority shareholders in advance to ensure the appointment. Apparently this is a common source of frustration at present with some higher ups at the club who feel decisions are already made in advance one you have the ear of Delia and Michael. 

It has been stated that a number of managers were talked to and there's no basis to believe this was a lie, nor is it very good form to suggest people might be lying without evidence to back it up.

The whys and wherefores of how the decision was made and who else was looked at are by the by; the appointment has been popular with fans and Wagner has existing relationsihips with a huge number of the staff on our footballing side. It's a good appointment, which is all we need to worry about.

[PurpleCanary 6,369]

On 09/01/2023 at 16:34, Indy said:

It’s funny, we all make assumptions and of course there will be a few unemployed managers who would throw a contact into the club, others like Parker, Gerrard would have higher aspirations with more spending power than we can provide. Doesn’t mean that as Purple said he might have been our initial prime target, pretty sure Wagner would have been number 2 and he got the job.

Now did we ever actually interview other potential candidates I can’t say for sure but I doubt it. I believe Wagner was contacted wanted the job and with his connection to this club was offered it. Nothing wrong with that, in fact it’s good to have your prime targets interested to close it up quick.

I doubt there was anyone else seriously considered, might have been had Wagner said he wasn’t interested, we might have ended up with Wilder! Now that would certainly would have been Smith mk2.

Indy, internet problems so will keep this short. I didn’t say Parker might have originally been the prime target!

[Indy 3,471]

11 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Indy, internet problems so will keep this short. I didn’t say Parker might have originally been the prime target!

No you didn’t, I did as I would certainly look at Parker with his CV as a primary target. Others I’d be cautious about, but Wagner is one type I thought we’d get post Farke for continuing the project.

👍

[mrD66M 149]

Looks like Wagner is indeed cut from the same cloth as Klopp! Farke was class at Champ level, but a bit of 'mental' is good in my book!

Edited January 13, 2023 by mrD66M