Swansea Presser

[shefcanary 2,955]

• Sargent ankle still swollen,
• Nunez with a slight hammy strain,
• Rowe confirmed as having operation on ankle ligament,
• Byram and Lungi not yet in full training but end of rehab,
• Omo and Idah had 30 minutes against a Man City XI at St George's last Saturday after Spuds pulled out.

But WTF is this all about re. Hayden not going to US?

"He was one of the players who were not allowed into America due to medical rules"

Note Smith said "one", so a few others? Whose rules, what medical issue and who else?

Come on journo's you can't let that ride! 🤬

[A Load of Squit 6,260]

2 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

• Sargent ankle still swollen,
• Nunez with a slight hammy strain,
• Rowe confirmed as having operation on ankle ligament,
• Byram and Lungi not yet in full training but end of rehab,
• Omo and Idah had 30 minutes against a Man City XI at St George's last Saturday after Spuds pulled out.

But WTF is this all about re. Hayden not going to US?

"He was one of the players who were not allowed into America due to medical rules"

Note Smith said "one", so a few others? Whose rules, what medical issue and who else?

Come on journo's you can't let that ride! 🤬

Did Angus Gunn go to Tampa?

[king canary 8,758]

The one possibility that springs to mind is Hayden might not have taken the covid vaccine, which would mean he's not allowed into the States?

[hogesar 10,766]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

The one possibility that springs to mind is Hayden might not have taken the covid vaccine, which would mean he's not allowed into the States?

That is what immediately jumped to mind. Reckon you're right.

[Gordon Bennett 914]

I think Southwell more or less confirmed that in a reply on Twatter.

[shefcanary 2,955]

Thanks guys, yes it possibly is due to Covid etc. I've kind of moved on from all that so if this was the reason it is a bit of a shock (to me anyway) to see players have not been fully vaxed at this stage, given I've already had my third booster.

So the absentees (Angus as well?) who were thought fit are the ones who haven't taken their full vax then? At least a large proportion of our players have.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,140]

Two criticisms here:

• Firstly, the club for choosing a location for training where a number of players couldn't legally attend.
• Players on six or seven-figure salaries refusing a vaccine that the vast majority of the population have had making it impossible to legally fulfill their obligations to the club.

Edited December 9, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[cambridgeshire canary 7,799]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

The one possibility that springs to mind is Hayden might not have taken the covid vaccine, which would mean he's not allowed into the States?

Cant wait for him to get covid and spread it to all the others players

 

You know its coming

[Greavsy 2,645]

41 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Cant wait for him to get covid and spread it to all the others players

 

You know its coming

Which could still happen  even if he was vaxxed.

[Ray 111]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Two criticisms here:

• Firstly, the club for choosing a location for training where a number of players couldn't legally attend.
• Players on six or seven-figure salaries refusing a vaccine that the vast majority of the population have had making it impossible to legally fulfill their obligations to the club.

Hi littleyellowbirdie,

Firstly, we do not know why certain players have not had the 'vaccine' (if indeed they have not), it could be for a number of reasons, including medical, that said I agree re location, apart from the obvious link with Tampa, surely the club could have travelled elsewhere, somewhere an 'unvaccinated' player could travel to, although they may have needed to take a test before travelling, currently Spain and Portugal do not require a 'vaccine' or test. So, are we to assume (dangerous I know) that commercial interests are put before team interests??

Secondly, there is no law requiring anyone to have any 'vaccine' so I am not quite sure how any contract can enforce such a stipulation legally and does it make a difference how much someone earns when it comes to their rights??

Cheers

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Two criticisms here:

• Firstly, the club for choosing a location for training where a number of players couldn't legally attend.
• Players on six or seven-figure salaries refusing a vaccine that the vast majority of the population have had making it impossible to legally fulfill their obligations to the club.

I find myself at a moral crossroads with this on one hand I find myself saying people have a right to choose what goes into their bodies or not and on the other hand saying the scientific evidence suggests the vaccine is successful at reducing the death rate so there’s no real justification for not wishing to take it other than conspiracy theory. 

[Ray 111]

Hi, By Hook or Ian Crook,

I decided to research your comment "the scientific evidence suggests the vaccine is successful at reducing the death rate " and it does appear to be somewhat difficult to find much info, however I did come across some ONS data for May 2022, which showed that in May there were 82 deaths involving Covid in 'unvaccinated' people and 1282 deaths involving covid in 'vaccinated' people, in fact 1155 were deaths that had had three doses.

My understanding is, and I am happy to be corrected, that approx 90% of the population has been 'vaccinated' therefore I would anticipate that the 'unvaccinated' deaths would be as a minimum 10% of the total deaths involving covid, when in actual fact the percentage was only 6.0%.  I am not sure what this means but it does concern me!!

Cheers

[cambridgeshire canary 7,799]

1 hour ago, Greavsy said:

Which could still happen  even if he was vaxxed.

Greavsy is an anti vax tin foil hatter? Blimey. Didnt see that one coming. 

 

Seriously though can we at least agree that while the vaccine does not guarantee any kind of immunity to covid it does at the very least help prevent it? And that maybe just maybe people such as professnal athletes who come into contact with lots of people as a part of their job should prehaps be more thoughtful of others?

[Ray 111]

4 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Greavsy is an anti vax tin foil hatter? Blimey. Didnt see that one coming. 

 

Seriously though can we at least agree that while the vaccine does not guarantee any kind of immunity to covid it does at the very least help prevent it? And that maybe just maybe people such as professnal athletes who come into contact with lots of people as a part of their job should prehaps be more thoughtful of others?

Hi, cambridgeshire canary,

See the info I discovered above and I'm not too sure it prevents it, I was under the opinion it lessened the 'ill effects' although the death % above may contradict that???

Cheers

[Greavsy 2,645]

11 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Greavsy is an anti vax tin foil hatter? Blimey. Didnt see that one coming

You assume, incorrectly. 

As @Ray has said it minimises the ill effects. 

[cornish sam 1,040]

5 minutes ago, Ray said:

Hi, By Hook or Ian Crook,

I decided to research your comment "the scientific evidence suggests the vaccine is successful at reducing the death rate " and it does appear to be somewhat difficult to find much info, however I did come across some ONS data for May 2022, which showed that in May there were 82 deaths involving Covid in 'unvaccinated' people and 1282 deaths involving covid in 'vaccinated' people, in fact 1155 were deaths that had had three doses.

My understanding is, and I am happy to be corrected, that approx 90% of the population has been 'vaccinated' therefore I would anticipate that the 'unvaccinated' deaths would be as a minimum 10% of the total deaths involving covid, when in actual fact the percentage was only 6.0%.  I am not sure what this means but it does concern me!!

Cheers

I'm not getting on this merry-go-round again, but, you should not be concerned. When looking at the figures it's not just a case of 10% of the population haven't (for a start 93.6% of those over 12 have had it, which would be much closer to your 6% number) but you also need to consider the demographics of the people who are more (or less) likely to have been vaccinated. A far higher proportion of elderly people are going to have had the vaccine and they are generally at a much higher risk anyway so one would expect a higher proportion of deaths there due to age and underlying health issues, also, less likely (anecdotally) are younger, healthier people who are less likely to have complications. The other thing to take into account is how the ONS are categorising deaths where COVID is involved, that doesn't say that are caused by covid directly, it could be someone caught COVID but had another issue that actually caused their death, e.g. pneumonia.

There is a lot of evidence that the transmission and severity of infection was reduced by vaccinations, though I know that your opinion is fixed on this one (but PLEASE don't put vaccination in quotes, it is a vaccine, it is not a conspiracy, yes there can be complications caused by it but that's the same with any medicine and it has greatly improved everyone's lives, even those who don't have it) but if you want to see what happens when restrictions are lifted.and the vaccinations haven't been rolled out amongst the elderly just look at what happened in Hong Kong earlier this year.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,140]

58 minutes ago, Ray said:

Hi littleyellowbirdie,

Firstly, we do not know why certain players have not had the 'vaccine' (if indeed they have not), it could be for a number of reasons, including medical, that said I agree re location, apart from the obvious link with Tampa, surely the club could have travelled elsewhere, somewhere an 'unvaccinated' player could travel to, although they may have needed to take a test before travelling, currently Spain and Portugal do not require a 'vaccine' or test. So, are we to assume (dangerous I know) that commercial interests are put before team interests??

Secondly, there is no law requiring anyone to have any 'vaccine' so I am not quite sure how any contract can enforce such a stipulation legally and does it make a difference how much someone earns when it comes to their rights??

Cheers

I agree, you can't enforce it. That said, they're very highly paid professionals; not being vaccinated limits their movement to some extent as it looks to have done here where a vaccine would readily resolve the problem. Granted, it's possible they could have some condition that prevents them being safely vaccinated, but is that really likely for elite athletes? I'd be surprised, in which case their personal choice has potentially damaged the club that pays them well for their services.

I say this as someone who has had an AZ vaccine, a Pfizer vaccine, a Moderna vaccine, and most recently a strain of covid with mild symptoms. This morning, I spoke to a carer who had 22 people die in a breakout of Covid in the retirement home where she works before vaccination, whereas a recent outbreak with all residents vaccinated resulted in no deaths, so while I respect their right to choose, I don't respect the choice they appear to have made given the effect it has had professionally.

Edited December 9, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Ray 111]

3 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

I'm not getting on this merry-go-round again, but, you should not be concerned. When looking at the figures it's not just a case of 10% of the population haven't (for a start 93.6% of those over 12 have had it, which would be much closer to your 6% number) but you also need to consider the demographics of the people who are more (or less) likely to have been vaccinated. A far higher proportion of elderly people are going to have had the vaccine and they are generally at a much higher risk anyway so one would expect a higher proportion of deaths there due to age and underlying health issues, also, less likely (anecdotally) are younger, healthier people who are less likely to have complications. The other thing to take into account is how the ONS are categorising deaths where COVID is involved, that doesn't say that are caused by covid directly, it could be someone caught COVID but had another issue that actually caused their death, e.g. pneumonia.

There is a lot of evidence that the transmission and severity of infection was reduced by vaccinations, though I know that your opinion is fixed on this one (but PLEASE don't put vaccination in quotes, it is a vaccine, it is not a conspiracy, yes there can be complications caused by it but that's the same with any medicine and it has greatly improved everyone's lives, even those who don't have it) but if you want to see what happens when restrictions are lifted.and the vaccinations haven't been rolled out amongst the elderly just look at what happened in Hong Kong earlier this year.

Hi Cornish Sam,

I agree with much of what you have said, all sorts of criteria can skew the figures, particularly the demographics point, however if the 'vaccine' (I note your polite request but just as politely choose to ignore it and I did not use the word 'conspiracy') did what it said on the tin, then surely the higher the percentage who have had the 'vaccine' the lower the representative percentage deaths (of total deaths involving covid).  If we say (and again I know there is certain assumption here) that the deaths percentage involving covid, broadly speaking reflects the uptake then it would appear that the 'vaccine' does not a lot to prevent death??

Something else I find complexing, is why this year to date, total deaths are approx 6% higher than the 5 year average, obviously population growth could count for some of this but the growth rate is only 0.34% pa and I suspect most of those are of the younger variety.

Cheers

[Ray 111]

34 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I agree, you can't enforce it. That said, they're very highly paid professionals; not being vaccinated limits their movement to some extent as it looks to have done here where a vaccine would readily resolve the problem. Granted, it's possible they could have some condition that prevents them being safely vaccinated, but is that really likely for elite athletes? I'd be surprised, in which case their personal choice has potentially damaged the club that pays them well for their services.

I say this as someone who has had an AZ vaccine, a Pfizer vaccine, a Moderna vaccine, and most recently a strain of covid with mild symptoms. This morning, I spoke to a carer who had 22 people die in a breakout of Covid in the retirement home where she works before vaccination, whereas a recent outbreak resulted in no deaths, so while I respect their right to choose, I don't repect the choice they appear to have made given the effect it has had professionally.

Hi , littleyellowbirdie,

At least we agree on one thing, we both respect everyone's right to choose👍

[Capt. Pants 5,013]

So basically a backward step with Sarge and Rowe, a bit of a worry with Nunez, little change with a Byram and Sorensen, good progress with Omo and Idah, and Hayden has had a rest.

Fingers crossed Sarge doesn't become long term.

[wcorkcanary 4,784]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Two criticisms here:

• Firstly, the club for choosing a location for training where a number of players couldn't legally attend.
• Players on six or seven-figure salaries refusing a vaccine that the vast majority of the population have had making it impossible to legally fulfill their obligations to the club.

So by the sound of it , you'd be in favour of employers dictating to employees on vaccinations? Or just Covid ( where it only limits symptoms) or just footballers ( who may have non compulsion clauses in their contracts). Nonsense Birdyo, complete nonsense.

The Club at fault ,? Maybe.

The players rights at fault ? Don't be silly.

[canarybubbles 2,199]

Since integrating Hayden into the side is supposedly vital to our cause this season and he has been unavailable for almost all games until the very last few matches, wouldn't it have made sense to go somewhere he could legally enter so that he had a chance to build up a better understanding with his team-mates?

[Mello Yello 2,572]

At least Hayden has had the free time to do his Christmas shopping....

[Capt. Pants 5,013]

I guess the club were expecting this after the fiasco with Djokovic. No big deal as long as he has worked himself back to fitness this last month.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,140]

1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

So by the sound of it , you'd be in favour of employers dictating to employees on vaccinations? Or just Covid ( where it only limits symptoms) or just footballers ( who may have non compulsion clauses in their contracts). Nonsense Birdyo, complete nonsense.

The Club at fault ,? Maybe.

The players rights at fault ? Don't be silly.

Not at all; I'm in favour of extremely well-paid professionals behaving like grown-ups and doing whatever it takes to do their jobs properly including getting a vaccine that billions have had with little in the way of issues.

These are vaccines that billions have had without issue that have saved lives. Like I said, I respect their right to choose, but I don't respect their lack of dedication to doing their job for the sake of neurosis and paranoia.

Edited December 9, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[shefcanary 2,955]

My view is that Hayden knew he was playing catch up, a week away was the ideal opportunity to achieve that, to not get vaxed before the trip to join his team mates looks very disloyal and lacking in ambition for the club.

UNLESS the Toon have deemed he should not have the vaccine?🤔 

OR have the Toon loaned him out because he won't have a vaccine? 🤔

Ooh, whatever, very disappointing and a missed opportunity.

[Well b back 3,605]

Forcing people to have the vaccination as was seen in the NHS and Healthcare has a very negative effect, with thousands leaving. That wasn’t the end of the story as due to vaccine fatigue a very low % have taken advantage in the NHS of the latest booster. Being fully vaccinated in the U.K. means your latest booster that you were entitled to has been taken, in the US if you had your 2 primary doses you are classed as fully vaccinated.

It maybe the club do not even know who is vaccinated as there are very stringent rules if you want to ask somebody, and if you are asked you don’t have to reply ( wether positive or negative ). 
Although a lot of people were vaccinated initially, the take up of boosters is reducing regularly. Being out in the community I can assure you the vaccines have saved a huge amount of lives, you regularly have a frail 90 year old who has had covid and survived, which would have been highly unlikely before vaccines against covid. If you are looking at % deaths if 100% of people were fully vaccinated any death would be 100% deaths of the vaccinated.

It would also not be advisable for a club to force this in contract on somebody as you can’t be seen to discriminate, so if your star player has not been vaccinated and your worse player has also not been vaccinated, you would have to get rid of both of them, not just the not so good one. It would also stop players coming to your club as based on the quote ‘ fully vaccinated ‘ in the U.K. a majority would not be fully vaccinated.

[Well b back 3,605]

6 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

My view is that Hayden knew he was playing catch up, a week away was the ideal opportunity to achieve that, to not get vaxed before the trip to join his team mates looks very disloyal and lacking in ambition for the club.

UNLESS the Toon have deemed he should not have the vaccine?🤔 

OR have the Toon loaned him out because he won't have a vaccine? 🤔

Ooh, whatever, very disappointing and a missed opportunity.

Should we cancel the contracts of all unvaccinated players in the club ?

[NewNestCarrow 290]

8 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Thanks guys, yes it possibly is due to Covid etc. I've kind of moved on from all that so if this was the reason it is a bit of a shock (to me anyway) to see players have not been fully vaxed at this stage, given I've already had my third booster.

So the absentees (Angus as well?) who were thought fit are the ones who haven't taken their full vax then? At least a large proportion of our players have.

Apparently Gunn, Hayden, Giannoulis, Gibbs & Sinani were not visible on any of the Tampa videos put out by the club.

They may have been there and just not in the videos. Or they may have stayed in the UK (or gone elsewhere) for any other number of reasons.

[shefcanary 2,955]

9 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Should we cancel the contracts of all unvaccinated players in the club ?

I'm not saying that. It is purely the choice of the individual.

I have had a vaccine or booster as soon as they were available. I haven't suffered. I can get on with my life without additional hurdles being put in my way, which might stop me from being the best I can be. That's all I'm saying.

🤷‍♂️

Edited December 9, 2022 by shefcanary