Is anyone convinced by Dean Smith?

[canarydan23 4,060]

57 minutes ago, Indy said:

It’s always difficult to say any manager or coach will be a success, but for me Robins has worked miracles at Coventry taking them from fourth division to the second through testing times off field not having a ground, sharing, has links to us and certainly from when I’ve seen them play look to play good football. I’d have pulled out all stops to get him in here if I was in charge. Just me………thinking the right manager and fit for our club, someone with a club on the rise not just sacked!

I was desperate for Robins after Farke. I said at the time the only good thing about the Smith appointment was that he wasn't Lampard.

[hogesar 9,693]

2 hours ago, Indy said:

So if Smith starts off with a string of poor results it’s not the squad then? Are you expecting nothing else than a good start and top finish, as I think you are pretty confident in Smith, are you surmising that we have the best squad and best manager in this division?

I wouldn't be surprised with a slow-ish start as that's been the nature of many a championship promotion for us. Equally I don't think winning the first 3 automatically proves anything. I'm not confident with Smith, I just think he deserves an opportunity. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,777]

Sadly I foresee many a 5.15pm post match press conference from Smith this season that will be full of tiresome excuses..

[shefcanary 2,410]

Plenty of opinions on here but let me throw another one in. My main concern is the relationship between Smith & Shakey. Smith has been fairly consistent with the way he has set his teams up, Shakey's main success at Leicester was with a completely different set up. I assume Smith chose Shakey for good reasons, but is there a clash of styles at play here that cloud Smith's judgement? Was the mess of set ups last year a sign of Smith trying to learn from Shakey a new way of setting up? Is it still a factor during this pre-season? Will Smith at some point take a firmer view of set up? Would Shakey be happy with playing a diminished role in future?

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

2 hours ago, Indy said:

Even though he spent the best part of £150 million and got sacked by Villa! I don’t understand why so many rate Smith so highly, he’s certainly an amiable guy who I’d like to see do well, but my honest view is he’s a yes type of guy who is happy to be middle ground and has no real drive or overall grasp of his own standards in coaching. He’s been here 8 months and I still haven’t seen much improvement in the squad, development or a sideway shift to say this is how we are set up and how we will play.

Time will tell, Cardiff will certainly be a very big result either way, get off to a positive start and move forwards uniting the club or lose and the fragility off the back off last season may come back, it’s difficult to break a losing mentality without major squad or mindset change in playing style! I’m still not seeing any settled system or first team, none of us can be certain in who will start Saturday.

The positive we have is some very good young players who I believe will certainly make an impact into our first team squad and that’s great to see our youth set up working so we’ll. That’s why I would have loved us go after Robins as our manager.

100% agree with all of this 👍

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Are you genuinely saying you don't think Dowell played well at the back end of our last Championship season? Genuinely? Did you watch many/any games? He was excellent.

He has a good understanding with Pukki, none of the newbies managed to develop a similar understanding.

To get Pukki ticking this season I feel like we either need to:

1). Find a way to incorporate Dowell (for me he's a number 10 rather than a wide player though)

or...

2), Buy some other player that can spot his movement and thread through balls

I rate Dowell but realistically he's not a top level wide player. We need to design a system where he's our number 10. I'd argue that he's our best number 10.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

35 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I was desperate for Robins after Farke. I said at the time the only good thing about the Smith appointment was that he wasn't Lampard.

I can vouch for this, you did say that. I'm still undecided on how harsh this was. I cycle between believing that he's not had a real chance of stamping his own identity on the squad, to thinking that he reminds me of Neil Adams (and that isn't a compliment).

[Inch High aka Inchy.. 405]

On 23/07/2022 at 17:15, Capt. Pants said:

Far too early to be sticking the knife into Deano just yet, the competitive season hasn't even started!

There are undoubted areas for concern and it's better he identifys them now. In some ways is good we lost to Celtic and played poorly as it neans a hell of a lot of focus and hard work.

We don't seem to understand the system we are trying to play which is more of a worry.

I was expecting a lot more cohesion by this stage I have to say.

What about the not too distant season we recently finished? Did Smith do anything that improved things?  

As far as I see it nothing has progressed since Farke was sacked.

[chicken 2,627]

3 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

So rather than debate the general point you’d rather play ‘let’s find fault’ with a pretty tame point since he’s made 2 career assists with us!   What’s with all the usual rational posters going all argumentative.    Has this forum finally done it’s worst?

Apologies, was just trying to make the differentiation between not being picked, which suggests he wasn't good enough, and having an ankle injury that kept him out of the side is all.

Yes, you're right, only one assist registered that season and five goals. I think all at the end after the surgery he had. Apologies I got that wrong.

[chicken 2,627]

2 minutes ago, Inch High aka Inchy.. said:

What about the not too distant season we recently finished? Did Smith do anything that improved things?  

As far as I see it nothing has progressed since Farke was sacked.

If you take the immediate run of games before covid kicked in and the entire saga of "should we be asking for more games to be called off" didn't and played with a weakened side. I think he did, he certainly appeared to get us battling more. I think there is an argument to be had that the first 10 games, where we only picked up two points, is one half of the damage, the other was that period where we seemed to have the walking wounded out on the pitch, up until Charlton in the cup when we got Rashica back and others started returning in drips and drabs.

We certainly seemed to be starting to get somewhere, Idah starting to look dangerous, Sargent had impacts on games, despite whatever shortcomings he's perceived to have. PLM further forward brought more to our game too.

 

[Ian 1,131]

It's really important not to overreact to meaningless pre-season friendlies, which are essentially nothing more than fitness exercises and a chance for fringe players to stake their claim (e.g. Hugill), but I would not be surprised to see us fighting relegation this season.

[hertfordyellow 460]

I’m less convinced now than before pre-season. Feels like he is still working out his best team. That said, I think it would be harsh to sack him early into this season if things aren’t sparking. Farke’s team didn’t convince for a while.

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

7 minutes ago, Ian said:

It's really important not to overreact to meaningless pre-season friendlies, which are essentially nothing more than fitness exercises and a chance for fringe players to stake their claim (e.g. Hugill), but I would not be surprised to see us fighting relegation this season.

I’ll bet you £100 to charity that we finish higher than halfway. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

24 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I’ll bet you £100 to charity that we finish higher than halfway. 

I'd also match that bet, but its a damning indictment on our current squad and management that you are only prepared to bet on top 12, would you extend that to top 6?

[Inch High aka Inchy.. 405]

34 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I’ll bet you £100 to charity that we finish higher than halfway. 

What kind of bet is that? No exactly taking a risk.  

At least go for top 6.

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

Well that gives rather a lot of leeway to someone convinced we’ll be fighting relegation, but I guess it’s worthwhile….but it’s irrespective of Smith being manager or not.  I merely think he should be given a chance, but if he can’t get us going then someone else will.  

[Midlands Yellow 3,995]

1 hour ago, Branston Pickle said:

I’ll bet you £100 to charity that we finish higher than halfway. 

6/1 to be champions and 4/7 to make the top 6, you’re a non generous bookie Badger. 

[Ian 1,131]

21 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Well that gives rather a lot of leeway to someone convinced we’ll be fighting relegation, but I guess it’s worthwhile….but it’s irrespective of Smith being manager or not.  I merely think he should be given a chance, but if he can’t get us going then someone else will.  

Bloody hell, I thought it was obvious I was being sarcastic! 100 quid if we finish top 2?

[CDMullins 436]

Not read all 6 pages,

But short answer no.

He doesn't inspire me one bit and it seems to me like he actually has no idea what he wants his team/set up to be.

And I've seen no improvement in his time here. The Celtic game replicated what we time all last season.

Edited July 24, 2022 by CDMullins

[wheres my rebate gone? 85]

17 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

Used to a big budget?  He’s managed the best part of 600 games, only a quarter were at Villa, most were at Walsall and Brentford with very little budget. 

And remind me what he did at Walsall & Brentford? Several promotions? 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

15 hours ago, hogesar said:

I watched alot of the Championship last season because other than our matches my care factor for the Premier League is zero.

I'm also looking at the history of our players, several of which are 2x title winners at this level. Those new signings I'm looking at what they've done in comparable leagues.

Again, if you can name 6 or 7 sides with better players in key positions then that would be an opinion that differs from my opinion. That's fine but so far you've not been able to do that so I wonder what your comparison is on?

No way you diligently scour the Championship, not to that extent, you spend far too much time on here for that!    🤣

Fact is you have provided no more evidence that there isn’t as much quality in other teams than I have that there is.    None!  I don’t know what the other teams are about yet (individually or collectively) and I guess on the balance of probabilities that neither do you.   It’s simply hearsay and blind partisanship on your part that we are better than 18 other teams.    My comparison is more what I see now with what we had two years ago and many years seeing relegated teams struggle for confidence and / or to cope with expectation.   There seems a certain arrogance on here that we have more quality and it’s a formality we’ll be in the mix!

I think we have significant flaws to sort at the minute, we have a likely crisis of confidence and belief that usually requires overcoming when teams are relegated and we no longer have Farkeball.   In fact, It is easy to suggest that we do not have an identity at all and developing one usually involve some considerable time transitioning (refer Farkeball).

We still lack leadership, pace, tenacity and quality in the team, all exposed so ruthlessly last season.   Has pre-season suggested change, I don’t think so.  It has suggested concern with a lack of creativity.     Seems very likely it will be last year’s team that starts next week.

Hayden may never play for us, he’s still injured and until he does I would reserve judgement on his impact.   That said, apparently reading this forum, the guy is absolutely brilliant, it simply beggars belief that a player of his immense talent was not always on Newcastle’s teamsheet!    We have no idea if Gabriel Sara will take to the robustness of championship football and indeed how long it will take him to acclimatise here.    These are not criticisms of either player, just simply reasonable concerns that remain to be answered.    Yet you appear authoritative that they will improve us.   Hopefully, they will.      

There are 4 very fundamental reasons we have several 2x Champions….Farke, Teemu, Skipp and Emi!    Their influence made a huge difference and 3 are no longer here.

This team have proved nothing that they are better than our opponents.  …And that’s the point, football is a team game, it’s about what they do as a collective, not as individuals.  So when you argue that we have better quality, even if we have, it doesn’t necessarily follow that we will be a better team.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

14 hours ago, chicken said:

Apologies, was just trying to make the differentiation between not being picked, which suggests he wasn't good enough, and having an ankle injury that kept him out of the side is all.

Yes, you're right, only one assist registered that season and five goals. I think all at the end after the surgery he had. Apologies I got that wrong.

That’s more like you, fair and reasonable!  Appreciate the response, don’t see that on here very often!    

[hogesar 9,693]

6 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

No way you diligently scour the Championship, not to that extent, you spend far too much time on here for that!    🤣Fact is you have provided no more evidence that there isn’t as much quality in other teams than I have that there is.    None!  I don’t know what the other teams are about yet (individually or collectively) and I guess on the balance of probabilities that neither do you.   It’s simply hearsay and blind partisanship on your part that we are better than 18 other teams.  

 

So I ask you what teams have better players than us because you disagree with me, and you can't name them.

Your next attempt is to basically say that just because I've told you I watched a lot of championship matches last season, you choose not to believe it and therefore I must have zero more knowledge than you.

Probably not worth debating any further with you, which is a shame.

[canarydan23 4,060]

43 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

There are 4 very fundamental reasons we have several 2x Champions….Farke, Teemu, Skipp and Emi!    Their influence made a huge difference and 3 are no longer here.

Skipp was absolutely brilliant for us in the 2018/19 season.

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

1 hour ago, wheres my rebate gone? said:

And remind me what he did at Walsall & Brentford? Several promotions? 

Whoosh, way to go to miss the point.  It’s all about expectation - promotion wasn’t the main goal at either when he was there.  It obviously was at Villa.

This really is a pointless discussion - you clearly don’t like/rate the guy, that’s life.  I’m sure he can live with it, and I know I can.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[ged in the onion bag 855]

44 minutes ago, hogesar said:

So I ask you what teams have better players than us because you disagree with me, and you can't name them.

Your next attempt is to basically say that just because I've told you I watched a lot of championship matches last season, you choose not to believe it and therefore I must have zero more knowledge than you.

Probably not worth debating any further with you, which is a shame.

Yes, I struggle to believe you’ve watched enough Championship football sufficient to make that kind of a judgement on it whilst also having to factor in changes in management, styles of football, changes in player personnel over the summer etc…   I think most would have difficulty believing that.  To me, that’s a lot of football you’d have to watch!

If you have then I apologise for suggesting that.       
 

Still though, if you have watched that much you’ve not backed that up with examples to support you assertion that our individuals are better than opponents.   I don’t think anyone can rationally do that either way at this stage especially given the utter dross we were treated to last season.  How can you compare since we had different levels of opponents?     I’m a B licence coach and I can’t do that off the TV.      It’s hearsay.

But I have put forward reasonable points in response to your comments in any event explaining my point!

You said ‘Smith had a good enough squad for playoffs, bare minimum’, but didn’t back it up with comparison and all I did was question that and I have backed up that opinion with some reasons for it.    You didn’t support your point with example and I don’t think you can!   Similarly, I can’t answer your request for 6 teams with supposed better quality than the list you provided of our so far unimpressive wide men.    But I did answer it with other factors as to why those players and this team don’t deserve that kind of expectation.   

Would agree, it is a shame!   Quite often, I tend to agree with you and / or at least understand we’re your coming from, just on this occasion, don’t think your point is as rationed as they usually are.    

[jaberry2 550]

On 23/07/2022 at 17:03, rock bus said:

I know we’re still in pre season but I’m really struggling to get behind smith.

As some mentioned in the  match thread today, it’s not about the results but the apparent continued lack of understanding about what style and formation we are building to. It still just looks like a bunch of individuals with no sense of cohesion. I honestly don’t think he has a clue which players are his starting 11 or the formation.

Even the transfers in and out seem totally haphazard. 

He also has the unfair problem of following such a loved and charismatic manager. That’s totally not his fault but he feels like a stop gap girlfriend you’ll use to get over your ex before you find the next right one.

it’s not what I want but I’d be very surprised if he is still our manager at Christmas 

You cant really judge Smith too early on, but appreciate he has shown very little in terms of his preffered methods etc. He has inherited a team not able to compete at the top level and has a task regaining confidence throughout the squad, coupled with new signings and putting his stamp on the team. We'll have more of an idea on how much has changed after 10 games.

[hogesar 9,693]

4 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Yes, I struggle to believe you’ve watched enough Championship football sufficient to make that kind of a judgement on it whilst also having to factor in changes in management, styles of football, changes in player personnel over the summer etc…   I think most would have difficulty believing that.  To me, that’s a lot of football you’d have to watch!
 

No, I'm sorry - i'm not claiming to the extent I think you think I am, if that makes sense!

I'm just saying based on what I have watched in the Championship, and what I think about our current set of players, including what I've seen many of them do at Championship level, I think our squad should be a play-off squad as minimum. I'm not saying I know that as a fact, I'm saying based on the comparisons I'm able to make based on the games I have watched.

If we take it position at a time.

GK: Krul - Generally proven at Premier League level but on a decline. Gunn - Had a really good championship season with us before and is now more experienced. How many clubs have a better GK? Johnstone at West Brom isnt bad, nor is the ex Ipswich Bialkowski at Millwall, and Hamer at Swansea, but I wouldn't swap any of them for what we have.

RB: Aarons - I don't think there's anyone proven to be close. Is Yiadom still at Reading? decent but nothing special. Nyambe at Blackburn is decent.

Sorry, I thought I had more willpower to go through the full list, maybe later! 😄 

When you consider Huddersfield missed out in the play-off final and Sinani was one of their starting, and scoring players, and he's coming back with no guarantee of being first choice, that gives a rough idea on where the league has been.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

16 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I was desperate for Robins after Farke. I said at the time the only good thing about the Smith appointment was that he wasn't Lampard.

I think you should up the anti a bit and make a commitment to have Dean Smith's face tattooed on your bum if we win promotion under him this season (minimum 5 inches by 5 inches in size). I'm sure we could raise a hefty sum for The Nest in sponsorship as well. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think you should up the anti a bit and make a commitment to have Dean Smith's face tattooed on your bum if we win promotion under him this season (minimum 5 inches by 5 inches in size). I'm sure we could raise a hefty sum for The Nest in sponsorship as well. 

I couldn't afford the laser treatment to get rid of the Farke and Pukki ones first.