Feedthewolf 5,885 Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: The problem is and always has been that a large chunk of our fanbase either don't like to kick up a fuss or more to the point do not like attacking Delia, in part because she is a woman but also obviously because there rightly has been some affection for the way they helped the club back at the outset of their ownership. If the club was already in Tom's hands then in my opinion there would have been mutinous scenes at Carrow Road already and major campaigns underway. I don't disagree with the second paragraph; I've been saying for years that if Tom becomes majority shareholder and de facto owner, fan dissatisfaction will escalate much more quickly if things aren't going well on the pitch. In fact, I'd much rather Delia and Michael find new investment than Tom. He may well be much less selective and judicious about who he sells the club to if the torches and pitchforks come out in earnest. However, not wanting to attack Delia and wanting change are not mutually exclusive. Obviously on a personal level I wouldn't get involved in any campaign due to my involvement in the OSP, but I think if the right questions were being asked in the right way, the fans could genuinely achieve something in the way of serious discussions about our long-term future. Edited May 23, 2022 by Feedthewolf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Inch High aka Inchy.. 417 Posted May 23, 2022 An elderly club run by elderly owners attracting a large proportion of elderly Delia fans rather than football fans. We are not an unattractive club to possible new owners with a large fanbase(although a portion of those would follow Delia out of the door) top notch training facilities and an acceptable club owned stadium. Our biggest problem is that Norwich is still viewed as the back of beyond and unattractive to investors. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 10,698 Posted May 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: Sorry but this is simply not true and ignores my central point which is that if they are not a Norwich fan, said billionaire is not going to be sufficiently desperate to do that when they can go and by Derby or Villa or any one of the half a dozen clubs who are genuinely receptive to approaches at the relevant time. They are going to think "i'm wasting my time here" if they are met with unresponsive majority shareholders who make it clear they won't sell. Well let's ignore the fact that Delia has said on multiple occasions recently that they would pass any genuine interest onto fans to consider the offer because you've decided you don't believe it. They won't think they're wasting their time unless you don't think a billionaire looking at a club doesn't bother getting anyone to do a little bit of due diligence and poking behind the scenes, and already understand that they could simply go public immediately, before even making a former offer to gather support. It's really not the obstacle you're pretending it is. And if you ask any successful businessman with wealth, they'll tell you it wouldn't be an obstacle at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sheva 146 Posted May 23, 2022 What does Tom bring to the party? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,578 Posted May 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said: I don't disagree with the second paragraph; I've been saying for years that if Tom becomes majority shareholder and de facto owner, fan dissatisfaction will escalate much more quickly if things aren't going well on the pitch. In fact, I'd much rather Delia and Michael find new investment than Tom. He may well be much less selective and judicious about who he sells the club to if the torches and pitchforks come out in earnest. However, not wanting to attack Delia and not wanting change are not mutually exclusive. Obviously on a personal level I wouldn't get involved in any campaign due to my involvement in the OSP, but I think if the right questions were being asked in the right way, the fans could genuinely achieve something in the way of serious discussions about our long-term future. The thing is FTW I just think that the perception at the board/ownership level is that "its just a noisy minority" and that it happens every time we have a bad run. But i think they would be very wrong to ignore the fact that there is very widespread disillusionment that could impact the club for a long time if a grip is not quickly taken of the situation. I'm undecided about the wider "fan ownership" model in the sense that i'm not sure it would make us any more competitive than the current model does so it could lead to equally poor top flight competitiveness but there would at least be an ideology and a vision that I could respect and get behind. At least we could be a club that genuinely does "do different" and in which the fans feel they have a real say and a stake. That has reasonably ticket prices and doesn;t try and screw its fans out of every last penny. And with that sense of "buy in" to the club perhaps the frustration of seasons like this one becomes a little less. We all take ownership of it. As it is we have the worst of both worlds. We aren't really competitive, the club feels it has to screw every last penny out of the fans and increasingly there is no meaningful communication with the fans who (unless the club needs a bail out) seem to be increasingly seen as an irritant or a problem rather than then life blood of the club. They know we renew regardless and they seem quite happy to take us for granted. Thats how it feels anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,578 Posted May 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, hogesar said: Well let's ignore the fact that Delia has said on multiple occasions recently that they would pass any genuine interest onto fans to consider the offer because you've decided you don't believe it. They won't think they're wasting their time unless you don't think a billionaire looking at a club doesn't bother getting anyone to do a little bit of due diligence and poking behind the scenes, and already understand that they could simply go public immediately, before even making a former offer to gather support. It's really not the obstacle you're pretending it is. And if you ask any successful businessman with wealth, they'll tell you it wouldn't be an obstacle at all. That is her new line she appears to have made up during interviews with the national press to plug her book. Presumably thinking it sounds good and won't ever have to happen. I don't actually think thats appropriate either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 6,361 Posted May 23, 2022 8 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: Well there is a quandry Purple. On the flipside, if they are willing to sell then why not go to the market and see who is out there? They know full well that they can make such statments and the likelihood is that nothing will ever come of it, thats if you believe them in the first place. As you know, I don't. I believe the version of Delia we got in the infamous Times interview. I'm not saying a hostile takeover is impossible but the point is that unless said person is a die hard Norwich fan who specifically wants Norwich only they are not going to bother if there are other similarly sized (albeit perhaps performing worse) clubs available at the same time. Jim, there is certainly some truth in your third paragraph. As to you going on an interview from six or more years ago rather than their recent statements, with the ground-breaking promise of the fans having the last word, I doubt I can argue you out of that, even though I have reason to believe that they have since that interview actively sought outside investment, albeit perhaps minority rather than majority. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIL 1010 5,224 Posted May 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said: Obviously on a personal level I wouldn't get involved in any campaign due to my involvement in the OSP, but I think if the right questions were being asked in the right way, the fans could genuinely achieve something in the way of serious discussions about our long-term future. Well that has raised an eyebrow with me wolfie as you make it sound you don't want to rattle the cage at Carrow Road and risk your position on the OSP even if the groundswell of the fans who voted you into office wished you to take a stance in a campaign. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,578 Posted May 23, 2022 The other problem with "poor" owners is we've not been able to afford to improve the ground at a time when it was absolutely ripe for us to do so. Whether or not wealthier owners bring enough wealth to pump in tens or hundreds of millions every season, a capital injection that enabled us to take the capacity up by 10,000 would enable us to increase revenues and our supporter base. But we've missed the boat on that, again. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIL 1010 5,224 Posted May 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said: Jim, there is certainly some truth in your third paragraph. As to you going on an interview from six or more years ago rather than their recent statements, with the ground-breaking promise of the fans having the last word, I doubt I can argue you out of that, even though I have reason to believe that they have since that interview actively sought outside investment, albeit perhaps minority rather than majority. Out of interest how do you see ' the ground breaking promise of the fans having the last word ' being implemented Purple ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feedthewolf 5,885 Posted May 23, 2022 9 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said: Well that has raised an eyebrow with me wolfie as you make it sound you don't want to rattle the cage at Carrow Road and risk your position on the OSP even if the groundswell of the fans who voted you into office wished you to take a stance in a campaign. I don't see what difference it would make if I join or not, I'm only one fan. If the fans organise themselves into a coherent campaign then of course the OSP will be aware of it and consider its movements and opinions when liaising with the club. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIL 1010 5,224 Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said: I don't see what difference it would make if I join or not, I'm only one fan. If the fans organise themselves into a coherent campaign then of course the OSP will be aware of it and consider its movements and opinions when liaising with the club. Best you had better not hope that if any campaign takes off your involvement as a fans representative is requested to take their views to the table. Edited May 23, 2022 by TIL 1010 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feedthewolf 5,885 Posted May 23, 2022 19 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: The thing is FTW I just think that the perception at the board/ownership level is that "its just a noisy minority" and that it happens every time we have a bad run. But i think they would be very wrong to ignore the fact that there is very widespread disillusionment that could impact the club for a long time if a grip is not quickly taken of the situation. I'm undecided about the wider "fan ownership" model in the sense that i'm not sure it would make us any more competitive than the current model does so it could lead to equally poor top flight competitiveness but there would at least be an ideology and a vision that I could respect and get behind. At least we could be a club that genuinely does "do different" and in which the fans feel they have a real say and a stake. That has reasonably ticket prices and doesn;t try and screw its fans out of every last penny. And with that sense of "buy in" to the club perhaps the frustration of seasons like this one becomes a little less. We all take ownership of it. As it is we have the worst of both worlds. We aren't really competitive, the club feels it has to screw every last penny out of the fans and increasingly there is no meaningful communication with the fans who (unless the club needs a bail out) seem to be increasingly seen as an irritant or a problem rather than then life blood of the club. They know we renew regardless and they seem quite happy to take us for granted. Thats how it feels anyway. A totally reasonable post Jim, I can empathise with a lot of it. The club itself has acknowledged that fan liaison has not been up to scratch this season, and as a panel the OSP has voiced its concerns and frustrations about this. All I can say on that front is that we know that a Head of Supporter Engagement is starting in June with a specific remit to improve those relations, and a Head of Customer Service shortly after that. To what extent that improves things, we'll have to wait and see. No one really knows if it's a majority or minority who 'want Delia out', because it's not a binary issue. Different people have different levels to to what extend they want change at the club: from people who love D&M unconditionally and would never say a word against them, to the kind of people I saw on King Street yesterday wearing Delia and Webber 'OUT' masks and chanting stuff like "we f**king hate Delia, she's a wh*re". It will be interesting to see to what extent the fanbase is prepared to support a campaign/movement towards change, and what form (if any) that campaign takes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feedthewolf 5,885 Posted May 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said: Best you had better not hope that if any campaign takes off your involvement as a fans representative is requested to take their views to the table. Not quite sure what you mean, Tilly. As I said in my previous post, if such a campaign takes off, then naturally the OSP (and myself as part of it) would consider their views and report back to the club on them. Although if it got to the stage where any such campaign was well-organised, well-communicated and well-supported, you'd expect the club to be a bit more proactive in interacting with said campaign anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legend Iwan 30 Posted May 23, 2022 I'd much prefer we continue the self-funded route. You only have to look at Burnley, who having had local owners sell out to big American businessmen, are now facing relegation and a £65m early repayment to see the grass is not always greener. Instead of Delia handing over to nephew Tom, though, she should give fans a 50+1 control of Norwich and place supporters at the heart of the club. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nexus_Canary 1,206 Posted May 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, Legend Iwan said: I'd much prefer we continue the self-funded route. You only have to look at Burnley, who having had local owners sell out to big American businessmen, are now facing relegation and a £65m early repayment to see the grass is not always greener. Instead of Delia handing over to nephew Tom, though, she should give fans a 50+1 control of Norwich and place supporters at the heart of the club. First bit of sense i've actually read in regard to new / change of ownership. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 2,280 Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, norfolkngood said: i can not believe some fans want the fans who want Delia out to find a buyer !! We are football fans that are unhappy with the way the club is run not Brokers for a multi million pound club ! Put it up for sale and see who comes forward Sigh...... The challenge is not necessarily for you lot to go out a find a buyer. Much more to have any kind realistic understanding of the situation, or any kind of worked through strategies to improve this. "Put it up for sale" is a unicorn idea, wishing on star, crossing your fingers and hoping for the best type of idea. Frankly it is a stupid suggestion. Edited May 23, 2022 by BigFish 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norfolkngood 1,172 Posted May 23, 2022 14 minutes ago, BigFish said: Sigh...... The challenge is not necessarily for you lot to go out a find a buyer. Much more to have any kind realistic understanding of the situation, or any kind of worked through strategies to improve this. "Put it up for sale" is a unicorn idea, wishing on star, crossing your fingers and hoping for the best type of idea. Frankly it is a stupid suggestion. ok i accept that and what you would do ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greavsy 2,636 Posted May 23, 2022 18 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said: Not quite sure what you mean, Tilly. As I said in my previous post, if such a campaign takes off, then naturally the OSP (and myself as part of it) would consider their views and report back to the club on them. Although if it got to the stage where any such campaign was well-organised, well-communicated and well-supported, you'd expect the club to be a bit more proactive in interacting with said campaign anyway. I come in peace Wolfie, but.... Or the OSP who represent the fans, voted for by the fans could take those fans views to the club before it gets ugly / out of hand. But what you're saying is the OSP won't get involved until the club are already aware........but as you've said before OSP can raise items for the meeting agendas. Evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Agreed you are one person, but you are still one person on the OSP, that argument doesn't stick Wolfie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 6,361 Posted May 23, 2022 39 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said: Out of interest how do you see ' the ground breaking promise of the fans having the last word ' being implemented Purple ? For now the promise is more important than the mechanics of how, but two possibilities occur to me. One is a vote by all shareholders, all season ticket holders and all employees. The other would be for the fans to subcontract the decision to a group of four or five respected supporters, one of whom would be a financial expert able to assess the viability of the offer. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lake district canary 4,813 Posted May 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, Greavsy said: I come in peace Wolfie, but.... Or the OSP who represent the fans, voted for by the fans could take those fans views to the club before it gets ugly / out of hand. But what you're saying is the OSP won't get involved until the club are already aware........but as you've said before OSP can raise items for the meeting agendas. Evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Agreed you are one person, but you are still one person on the OSP, that argument doesn't stick Wolfie Can't talk for feedthewolf, but his position seems reasonable to me. There are plainly some fans who feel strongly enough to demonstrate, what, maybe 50 amongst 27000? Less than a quarter of one percent. Worthy of a passing comment at a meeting maybe, but nothing more? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 10,698 Posted May 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, Greavsy said: I come in peace Wolfie, but.... Or the OSP who represent the fans, voted for by the fans could take those fans views to the club before it gets ugly / out of hand. But what you're saying is the OSP won't get involved until the club are already aware........but as you've said before OSP can raise items for the meeting agendas. Evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Agreed you are one person, but you are still one person on the OSP, that argument doesn't stick Wolfie I'm not sure there's any relevance to the OSP as of yet. Those actually making any noise, are still a tiny minority of the fanbase. Was there anything after the game yesterday? I stayed till the end, and then the "lap" and there was nothing afterwards despite posters on here telling me to "wait and see" before judging numbers. If that's the case, then i'm not sure the wider fanbase would be happy to see the OSP trying to represent at best a 1% portion of the fanbase. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feedthewolf 5,885 Posted May 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, Greavsy said: I come in peace Wolfie, but.... Or the OSP who represent the fans, voted for by the fans could take those fans views to the club before it gets ugly / out of hand. But what you're saying is the OSP won't get involved until the club are already aware........but as you've said before OSP can raise items for the meeting agendas. Evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Agreed you are one person, but you are still one person on the OSP, that argument doesn't stick Wolfie If you're still banging that ridiculous drum about 'evidence suggesting that the OSP cannot raise items for meeting agendas', I'm not going to engage with you any further. It's bloody tedious. Say what you want, do what you want, I'm past caring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greavsy 2,636 Posted May 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said: If you're still banging that ridiculous drum about 'evidence suggesting that the OSP cannot raise items for meeting agendas', I'm not going to engage with you any further. It's bloody tedious. Say what you want, do what you want, I'm past caring. Glad your using my vote to represent my views. Glad you don't need re-electing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Helsinki canary 296 Posted May 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Sheva said: What does Tom bring to the party? Sweet FA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Feedthewolf 5,885 Posted May 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Greavsy said: Glad your using my vote to represent my views. Glad you don't need re-electing. I've spent hours engaging with you on various topics; I feel I've been more than patient. In fact, considering my (our) role is to represent 'all fans', I've given you personally a huge amount of my time and goodwill over the past 12 months. If you wish to repay that goodwill by constantly fabricating 'evidence' to suggest that the OSP has no input into its own meeting agendas, then frankly I neither want nor need your 'vote'. If you want to retract your misinformation and continue engaging with me cordially, I would welcome that. Otherwise, I'm done engaging with you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greavsy 2,636 Posted May 23, 2022 4 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said: I've spent hours engaging with you on various topics; I feel I've been more than patient. In fact, considering my (our) role is to represent 'all fans', I've given you personally a huge amount of my time and goodwill over the past 12 months. If you wish to repay that goodwill by constantly fabricating 'evidence' to suggest that the OSP has no input into its own meeting agendas, then frankly I neither want nor need your 'vote'. If you want to retract your misinformation and continue engaging with me cordially, I would welcome that. Otherwise, I'm done engaging with you. Just pmd you wolfie, before I read your message. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,578 Posted May 23, 2022 17 minutes ago, hogesar said: I'm not sure there's any relevance to the OSP as of yet. Those actually making any noise, are still a tiny minority of the fanbase. Was there anything after the game yesterday? I stayed till the end, and then the "lap" and there was nothing afterwards despite posters on here telling me to "wait and see" before judging numbers. If that's the case, then i'm not sure the wider fanbase would be happy to see the OSP trying to represent at best a 1% portion of the fanbase. Thing is with our support (esepcially these days) it will always only be a small minority making noise, because that is what our suport is like. The demographic of our support means it does not rear up in the way more volotile fan bases might. Even at the height of the Chase days there were only a few hundred protesting/rioting outside the ground albeit the discontent inside the ground was more audible and obviously the St Andrew's hall meeting was well attended. But if you did a poll of ST holders asking who wanst change I think the result would see a majority, I really do. 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 2,280 Posted May 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, norfolkngood said: ok i accept that and what you would do ? Never said it was easy @norfolkngood 😀. Me, as a common or garden fan, I am accepting the fundamentals of the club and football in general, swallowing the disappointment of this year and looking forward to a better one next year. If I felt something needed to be done, I would look to organise with other fans a vehicle that could act as a shadow of the current regime. Put this on a legal basis with articles of association, whether a Trust, a Parnership or even Ltd company. Get some expertise involved in marketing, communications, finance and football. Elect representatives, build a network, raise cash and buy shares. Use this to produce alternative strategies and plans and yes, engage with S&J even to the point of gaining a seat on the board. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 6,361 Posted May 23, 2022 8 minutes ago, BigFish said: Never said it was easy @norfolkngood 😀. Me, as a common or garden fan, I am accepting the fundamentals of the club and football in general, swallowing the disappointment of this year and looking forward to a better one next year. If I felt something needed to be done, I would look to organise with other fans a vehicle that could act as a shadow of the current regime. Put this on a legal basis with articles of association, whether a Trust, a Parnership or even Ltd company. Get some expertise involved in marketing, communications, finance and football. Elect representatives, build a network, raise cash and buy shares. Use this to produce alternative strategies and plans and yes, engage with S&J even to the point of gaining a seat on the board. Quite. Not least because it is government policy (and yes, I know policy doesn't always translate into action, especially with this government, but...) that clubs should have a supporter-director with a golden share veto over heritage issues. I don't think that veto covers enough ground, but that is a detail. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites