Why this relegation is worse than last

[Dean Coneys boots 1,423]

Last time we didn't even try and stay up - it was a free hit. So when we went down we regrouped and went again as part of a plan. 

This time we spent big by our standards (small by any others when balanced against outgoings) and TOTALLY messed up recruitment. 

This will have a knock on effect of eroding confidence in leadership and players. And belief is so important in sport. One senses an era is ending in failure and we face the fall out. Low spirits, exodus of players and rebuilding whilst seeking a fresh vision. This fresh vision wont be easy to find given that we lack the resources of other clubs. Fans wont be over hungry for promotion if they feel we just get another kicking. The board too. And that sort of doubt can spread. Yet without parachute payments we are in real trouble and will likely slide into L1 quicker than many realise. Roeder era mark 2- lots of cheap loans etc.... 

Sorry to be so gloomy but it really is hard to find the positives after that last defeat. We need to hear from the board soon. They need to find a fresh narrative and some positivity and begin to build - will it come? Am I overly negative or is this the start of decline? Thoughts? 

[hogesar 9,817]

Just now, Dean Coneys boots said:

Sorry to be so gloomy

Don't be, or you'll be apologising for your other 3,294 posts.

[PurpleCanary 5,603]

22 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Don't be, or you'll be apologising for your other 3,294 posts.

Dear lord is it really only that few?

[A Load of Squit 5,244]

Fans wont be over hungry for promotion if they feel we just get another kicking

Fans are always hungry for promotion, on the day we get promoted the fans are at their happiest.

Meet triumph and disaster and treat the two impostors the same. 

[BarclayWazza 91]

31 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Last time we didn't even try and stay up - it was a free hit. So when we went down we regrouped and went again as part of a plan. 

This time we spent big by our standards (small by any others when balanced against outgoings) and TOTALLY messed up recruitment. 

This will have a knock on effect of eroding confidence in leadership and players. And belief is so important in sport. One senses an era is ending in failure and we face the fall out. Low spirits, exodus of players and rebuilding whilst seeking a fresh vision. This fresh vision wont be easy to find given that we lack the resources of other clubs. Fans wont be over hungry for promotion if they feel we just get another kicking. The board too. And that sort of doubt can spread. Yet without parachute payments we are in real trouble and will likely slide into L1 quicker than many realise. Roeder era mark 2- lots of cheap loans etc.... 

Sorry to be so gloomy but it really is hard to find the positives after that last defeat. We need to hear from the board soon. They need to find a fresh narrative and some positivity and begin to build - will it come? Am I overly negative or is this the start of decline? Thoughts? 

Personally I think this is the start of a decline.  Looking at last time we came down we kept Aarons, Buendia and Cantwell and had £40m from the sales of Godfrey and Lewis.  Since, we've essentially p*ssed that 40m plus the Buendia money up the wall, not found a solution to key parts of the squad (CDM, Pukki backup, solid defence) and our only real saleable assets are Aarons and whatever we might get for Cantwell.  

Said it many times before though... we must have pulled in £250m in PL money and parachute payments over the last 3 seasons yet our net spend over that time can only just be above zero.  Something isn't right somewhere.

I think the sign that things are really going bad is when you get the usual pro-Delia, can't criticise the club for anything poster's unable to offer anything of a counterpoint so resort to snide jibes - seen quite a lot of that recently!

Edited March 17, 2022 by BarclayWazza

[Mr Angry 1,574]

Not sure I understand this post, why won’t we get parachute payments next season?

[Badger 2,415]

29 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Am I overly negative or is this the start of decline? Thoughts? 

You are overly negative.

Being relegated is horrible, but never being promoted  would be worse. I don't think promotion next year will be easy but we stand a better chance than most because we are solvent.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,423]

Just now, Mr Angry said:

Not sure I understand this post, why won’t we get parachute payments next season?

Im suggested faith in the plan is shot to bits and we are in a much worse position 

[Mr Angry 1,574]

2 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Im suggested faith in the plan is shot to bits and we are in a much worse position 

You’ve said without parachute payments we are in trouble. Why aren’t we getting parachute payments next season?

[lake district canary 4,562]

23 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Am I overly negative or is this the start of decline? Thoughts? 

I usually see positives, but admittedly finding it hard this time. I like what Webber and Farke were doing and I think Webber has messed up by succumbing to the pressure to change the coach, when the better course (imo) would have been to persevere with what he had.  Yes, I know there were issues with players, results etc, but really, it feels as if one of the main characters at the club has been thrown away for nothing. Smith may do well, who knows, but is he better than Farke?  I don't think so, but then others will feel different, which is up to them. 

I'm still behind the club and want them to win some games this season to at least make it interesting - and I'll be positive next season, but just now, I don't blame anyone for being a bit negative.

[BarclayWazza 91]

Just now, Mr Angry said:

You’ve said without parachute payments we are in trouble. Why aren’t we getting parachute payments next season?

I think the implication is that if we are in decline and don't go back up then without parachute payments we will struggle.

[BarclayWazza 91]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

I usually see positives, but admittedly finding it hard this time. I like what Webber and Farke were doing and I think Webber has messed up by succumbing to the pressure to change the coach, when the better course (imo) would have been to persevere with what he had.  Yes, I know there were issues with players, results etc, but really, it feels as if one of the main characters at the club has been thrown away for nothing. Smith may do well, who knows, but is he better than Farke?  I don't think so, but then others will feel different, which is up to them. 

I'm still behind the club and want them to win some games this season to at least make it interesting - and I'll be positive next season, but just now, I don't blame anyone for being a bit negative.

Nope sorry, I claimed pro-Delia posters not having any comeback was a sign things are bad.  This is a sign of the apocalypse....

[Badger 2,415]

6 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

You’ve said without parachute payments we are in trouble. Why aren’t we getting parachute payments next season?

Don't go asking for facts and knowledge you would be wasting your time.

[Badger 2,415]

9 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

I think the implication is that if we are in decline and don't go back up then without parachute payments we will struggle.

Decline from when?

[AJ 1,235]

I think last time the difference was we accepted survival was unlikely, gave it a good go (before Covid) then whimpered out but stuck with our principles and our manager. I was concerned but we got going again in the Champ and it all ended well.

This time around we've spent large amount of money, booted out the manager who worked miracles to got us to this point, and pretty much completely overhauled the squad letting our best two attacking assets go in the process. The result? No better than last time and I can't see players like Aarons, or maybe even Omobomadiele giving us too much more time if PL clubs come sniffing in the summer. Next seasons battle is going to be a lot tougher than last time

[BarclayWazza 91]

2 minutes ago, Badger said:

Decline from when?

Have you seen anything this season to suggest that we're in a better position now than what we were 2 years ago? 

[TheGunnShow 6,095]

I don't enjoy that we're probably going down, but at the same time, I'll take a solvent club that is well-rooted within its community playing in the Championship than a kept club desperately suckling on the teat of TV money in the Premier League. Best of all would be a club with our set-up holding its own in the Premier League. I'll definitely take it over the parlous financial state we were in whilst looking like a very average Championship team, which is the position we were in before Webber came in less than five years ago.

Agree with Lakey and AJ in that ditching Farke was a seminal point where we seemed to be looking more at a short-term "stay up at all costs" approach rather than adhering to a coherent, team-wide philosophy and style of play from top to bottom, even down to the youngest youth levels and that probably unwisely raised expectations in the process.

But I think Farke overachieved in both Championship-winning seasons, which didn't help matters in its own way.

[Badger 2,415]

5 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

Have you seen anything this season to suggest that we're in a better position now than what we were 2 years ago? 

It doesn't have to be better - you said  we were in decline.

[ged in the onion bag 873]

There's a lot you've not factored into your thinking, so you shouldn't be that despondent.    We are a well run club with a plan, many aren't and just function on a whim.    We aren't in debt, have plenty of potential in our academy and players out on loan and the future could be reasonably bright.    Ignoring the wasted money, what the club needs to do sharpish is learn their lessons..... McLean for example failed last time and needed replacing on relegation, the fact he is still in the squad and playing is more of a failing in my eyes than the signings since it was obvious to anyone watching the last debacle...... the scouts failed - replace them, the use of loans isn't working (Skipp didn't work since it left us with a huge void) so play and develop our own players and move on lads that can't step up to the EPL regardless of whether they 'are good Championship players' we don't have funds to replace on promotion so give others a go, develop their abiilty and get them experience. 

That means next season should see big changes, out must go McLean, Rupp, Platcheta, Dowell, Zimmermann, McGovern, Gibson, Giannoulis, Sargent and Hugill.    Sadly, there's not going to much value out of those excepting for reducing the wages but what would be the point of keeping any of them?   At best some are only average Championship standard, some aren't even that.   That also means dropping the loan players right now.... get our lads game time.     

Next season, rather see what we can do with Krul, Gunn, a young third keeper backup, Byram, Mumba, (Assume Aarons & Cantwell will leave) Hanley, Omo, Famewo, McCallum, Sorensen, Lees-Melou, Rashica, Tzolis, Rowe, Sinani, Adshead, McAlear, Pukki and Idah.  Yes, we will need some new signings, CB, 2 proper CDM's and a striker in particular (not loans) to fill the gaps with some experience, strength and athleticism. 

Also got some talent in the U23s and out on loan, many keepers, Tomkinson, Bushiri, Dennis, Clarke, Omotoye, Dickson-Peters and Kamara to name a few.   All still young, all have potential.     Godfrey, Cantwell, Aarons, Lewis and Omo are all examples of what can happen when opportunity is granted in a functioning team.   

Give this lot a couple of seasons in the Championship, can't see us heading to League 1 in a hurry with that squad.

[BarclayWazza 91]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

It doesn't have to be better - you said  we were in decline.

Refer to my previous comment about those who can't bring themselves to say a bad word about the club - I did mean to add pedantry to the snide jibes.

But OK, I'll play the game.

We're in decline. We're scoring less, we're creating less, dont know exactly where we are with goals conceded but we certainly haven't fixed the leaky defence. Our talisman striker has lost his assist machine and is only getting older and slower. We are largely dependent on PL money to just stand still (which while nearly everyone else is spending essentially means we're going backwards) and if I were to do a poll, I'd suggest overwhelmingly that the consensus is that we're in a worst position than 2 years ago to bounce back up.

I note you dont state that you actually think we're in a better (or same position) as the last PL relegation so I find your motivation for your comment a bit odd.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,423]

All of the above- plus a massive drain of confidence in the board, webber, the vision etc within the playing and fan base. Farke going certainly heralded the end of the self funding 5 year plan. So what now?It feels we are back in the era of when we went down in the 90's and then rotted in the champs before sliding into L1. Hope I am wrong. But one thing is clear - this board have a LOT of convincing to do before they have the backing of previous years. We were sold the lie that you can compete and be self funding - it is now plain to all but the wilfully blind apologists that it doesn't work. We need increased revenue from promotion to keep us standing still- what happens if we lose that? 

[Badger 2,415]

6 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

Refer to my previous comment about those who can't bring themselves to say a bad word about the club - I did mean to add pedantry to the snide jibes.

The was nothing snide: I just asked you to explain and justify what you said. You didn't try  last time but you have this, but not imo, convincingly.

We are largely dependent on PL money to just stand still (which while nearly everyone else is spending essentially means we're going backwards)

Would care to back this up with any facts?  Or are you happy to leave it as an unsubstantiated assertion (which without researching it. I would expect to be certainly wrong. For us to be "in decline" in spending terms as you allege the teams beneath us would have to be spending more than us - they are not. Indeed 3 of the top six are currently loaning City players.)

and if I were to do a poll, I'd suggest overwhelmingly that the consensus is that we're in a worst position than 2 years ago to bounce back up.

I agree with you re the poll. But I suspect that if such a poll were done last time it would have said the same and the time before that and the time before that etc. (Recency bias.)

I note you dont state that you actually think we're in a better (or same position) as the last PL relegation so I find your motivation for your comment a bit odd.

I am not certain that we are better off this time which is why I didn't say it. I certainly think that it will be exceptionally hard to emulate last season when we walked away with the division. I think that we face a number of challenges - confidence being a big one. I think that the overall quality of the squad is higher than last time we were relegated (despite what others may say). Although Emi is an obvious loss, we do not know what others will do in the Championship next year: Emi was brilliant in the championship last year but has hardly ripped the premier league apart in either year. Who knows what some of our newer players will look like in the Championship, especially as several have youth on their side. 

I would agree that there is uncertainty but can see no clear evidence to suggest that we are in decline. It is quite natural to see every major disappointment as the "end of the world" but it very rarely is.

 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

This relegation is significantly worse than the last yes. In my opinion the reasons for this are

1. this was supposed to be the season we were competitive in the PL, the accumulation of the 5yr plan

2. Our team (and squad) is worse now than when we were relegated 2 seasons ago

3. A manager we all thought could walk on water turned out to be incapable of adapting his philosophy to the Premier League 

4. Returning to a championship which has previously been filled with hope of a swift return has been reduced to ‘what’s the point’. Seems half the fans hate the PL anyway, the only point of returning to it is for the TV money.

5. The clubs national image has moved from yo yo club to bi-annual whipping boys

6. two seasons ago we had a recruitment record the envy of the rest, copied and admired. That record has gone along with the personnel and now many fans don’t believe our recruitment model is fit for purpose

going to have to stop now before I throw myself off a curb

Edited March 17, 2022 by Son Ova Gunn

[Capt. Pants 4,329]

Last time we were relegated we were fearing that we'd lose our crown jewels. Thankfully that didn't happen. 2 years on and we're hoping that someone takes our deadwood away. I suspect that won't happen either. The worrying thing for me is that Smith cannot seem to get anything out of this squad, whereas we knew before that Farke could.

It will be key whether Deano gets an opportunity to build a squad he wants rather than one he inherits. That might depend if we sell Max and Milo, when ideally we want both to stay. 

An interesting and hugely important summer transfer window coming up.

 

 

[yellowrider120 797]

24 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Last time we were relegated we were fearing that we'd lose our crown jewels. Thankfully that didn't happen. 2 years on and we're hoping that someone takes our deadwood away. I suspect that won't happen either. The worrying thing for me is that Smith cannot seem to get anything out of this squad, whereas we knew before that Farke could.

It will be key whether Deano gets an opportunity to build a squad he wants rather than one he inherits. That might depend if we sell Max and Milo, when ideally we want both to stay. 

An interesting and hugely important summer transfer window coming up.

 

 

Absolutely. That said, whilst the tone deaf geriatrics remain in charge and cling to their ownership then I fear any upturn will only be temporary and illusory.   

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

It's precisely  the combinations of ups and downs that the  Japanese  exoerience as harmony. 

[BroadstairsR 2,227]

I didn't enjoy the general disdain metered out to the club by some of the media and punditry not long after the season was underway. The suggestion that we had no right to be in the top league in the first place hurt and the accusation of us just using the parachute system as little more than a method of survival, whilst ignoring our enviable youth policy, was largely unfair.

No attempts were made to get beneath the surface of the club's ethics and methods, instead total obeisance was made to the power of big spending when compared to our relatively miniscule net outlay and wages. We were more or less ridiculed for not getting into debt.

A lot of this was unfair and short-sighted, but accepting the premise that  it is the way the modern game is nowadays and therefore also the need to adhere to the conformity that money rules, it managed to knock me from off the fence as far as our dated ownership model was concerned. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by BroadstairsR

[canarycop 212]

18 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

There's a lot you've not factored into your thinking, so you shouldn't be that despondent.    We are a well run club with a plan, many aren't and just function on a whim.    We aren't in debt, have plenty of potential in our academy and players out on loan and the future could be reasonably bright.    Ignoring the wasted money, what the club needs to do sharpish is learn their lessons..... McLean for example failed last time and needed replacing on relegation, the fact he is still in the squad and playing is more of a failing in my eyes than the signings since it was obvious to anyone watching the last debacle...... the scouts failed - replace them, the use of loans isn't working (Skipp didn't work since it left us with a huge void) so play and develop our own players and move on lads that can't step up to the EPL regardless of whether they 'are good Championship players' we don't have funds to replace on promotion so give others a go, develop their abiilty and get them experience. 

That means next season should see big changes, out must go McLean, Rupp, Platcheta, Dowell, Zimmermann, McGovern, Gibson, Giannoulis, Sargent and Hugill.    Sadly, there's not going to much value out of those excepting for reducing the wages but what would be the point of keeping any of them?   At best some are only average Championship standard, some aren't even that.   That also means dropping the loan players right now.... get our lads game time.     

Next season, rather see what we can do with Krul, Gunn, a young third keeper backup, Byram, Mumba, (Assume Aarons & Cantwell will leave) Hanley, Omo, Famewo, McCallum, Sorensen, Lees-Melou, Rashica, Tzolis, Rowe, Sinani, Adshead, McAlear, Pukki and Idah.  Yes, we will need some new signings, CB, 2 proper CDM's and a striker in particular (not loans) to fill the gaps with some experience, strength and athleticism. 

Also got some talent in the U23s and out on loan, many keepers, Tomkinson, Bushiri, Dennis, Clarke, Omotoye, Dickson-Peters and Kamara to name a few.   All still young, all have potential.     Godfrey, Cantwell, Aarons, Lewis and Omo are all examples of what can happen when opportunity is granted in a functioning team.   

Give this lot a couple of seasons in the Championship, can't see us heading to League 1 in a hurry with that squad.

Can't agree more. We have some really good young instructors coming through that have had experience on loan in the lower leagues and Scotland. Famewo I think has a deal in place to go as does Bushiri but the rest I agree with. Yes we will need signings but give Dean Smith the summer and we will be ready with a squad more than capable of competing and being successful

[Badger 2,415]

43 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

We were more or less ridiculed for not getting into debt.

A lot of this was unfair and short-sighted, but accepting the premise that  it is the way the modern game is nowadays and therefore also the need to adhere to the conformity that money rules, it managed to knock me from off the fence as far as our dated ownership model was concerned. 

I'm not sure why this persuaded you that this is good reason to take on debt?

In many walks of life doing what other people are doing is seen as more important than doing the right thing. I remember years ago reading research into economists that went against the mainstream economic forecasts (and proved to be correct) tended to have less successful career development than those who were wrong along with everybody else. I think that we have a similar issue here. Talksport and other pundits have very little understanding of finance and economics but see clubs borrowing money and naturally assume that it is the "right thing to do," even though it normally fails. Of course, they don't comment upon the long list of clubs that have tried this approach and have not been near the EPL for years as they try to restore financial stability. (I don't challenge your perception of "the conformity that money rules" but don't understand why you would go to football pundits for financial advice or for anything else for that matter.)

Now that you seem to be a convert, unless I have misinterpreted what you said, how much debt do you think that we should take on and how certain are you that this sum would improve us?

[king canary 7,705]

19 hours ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

This relegation is significantly worse than the last yes. In my opinion the reasons for this are

1. this was supposed to be the season we were competitive in the PL, the accumulation of the 5yr plan

2. Our team (and squad) is worse now than when we were relegated 2 seasons ago

3. A manager we all thought could walk on water turned out to be incapable of adapting his philosophy to the Premier League 

4. Returning to a championship which has previously been filled with hope of a swift return has been reduced to ‘what’s the point’. Seems half the fans hate the PL anyway, the only point of returning to it is for the TV money.

5. The clubs national image has moved from yo yo club to bi-annual whipping boys

6. two seasons ago we had a recruitment record the envy of the rest, copied and admired. That record has gone along with the personnel and now many fans don’t believe our recruitment model is fit for purpose

going to have to stop now before I throw myself off a curb

I think this sums it up quite well.

Those who doubted whether this model could work in the top flight were told 'this time will be different' due to factors x, y and z but it has been exactly the same- relegated with barely a whimper. I can't get excited about another promotion but I also worry about finances if we don't go up. I don't enjoy being that butt of every football fans jokes or being seen as an easy three points for anyone who needs them. My faith in Webber is shot as he's got so much wrong these last two or three seasons. I was slightly relieved to see none of our games moved for TV in this latest round as I really haven't got much desire to watch us get publicly humped into oblivion by a mid-table team with richer owners.

Apathy is taking hold and I don't think I'm the only one who feels it.