Tzolis, Kabak and Rowe playing for under 23's today

[cambridgeshire canary 6,874]

Interesting to say the least. Say's a lot that I have more hopes of Rowe breaking into our first team than Tzolis.

Edited February 21, 2022 by cambridgeshire canary

[Branston Pickle 3,742]

Good.  All need minutes in their legs, and the u23s will benefit from having them playing.  Shame it’s only on to watch if you buy a Villa pass.

[shefcanary 2,503]

0-0 @ half time.

[Branston Pickle 3,742]

1-0 down a few minutes into the second half

[Branston Pickle 3,742]

Lost 2-0 - but from the tweets (both clubs) sounded like we made all the running/had quite a number of chances.  Tzolis missed several, but he was going to be rusty, it’s all about getting minutes/match sharp for first teamers.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Tzol Machine 27]

9 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Interesting to say the least. Say's a lot that I have more hopes of Rowe breaking into our first team than Tzolis.

You have no idea what Tzolis is capable of, have you watched his highlights from last year? 
 

Or are you just ****ting on him because the team said so?

[hogesar 9,818]

4 hours ago, Tzol Machine said:

You have no idea what Tzolis is capable of, have you watched his highlights from last year? 
 

Or are you just ****ting on him because the team said so?

No, it's more likely because Rowe has looked better than Tzolis when he's played.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,874]

5 hours ago, Tzol Machine said:

You have no idea what Tzolis is capable of, have you watched his highlights from last year? 
 

Or are you just ****ting on him because the team said so?

No, I'm basing this off of Rowe slowly breaking into the team while Tzolis can't even make the bench.

[Michael Starr 523]

Remember though... he's very young. He's human. He's a young lad in a foreign country away from his friends / family etc. I kinda feel like that would take some adapting. He's probably also quite in awe of the Premier League stuff. It might be that we start seeing him next season tearing up the Championship. I kinda like the idea of a Tzolis / Sargent front 2 in the Champ

[TheGunnShow 6,100]

3 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

Remember though... he's very young. He's human. He's a young lad in a foreign country away from his friends / family etc. I kinda feel like that would take some adapting. He's probably also quite in awe of the Premier League stuff. It might be that we start seeing him next season tearing up the Championship. I kinda like the idea of a Tzolis / Sargent front 2 in the Champ

I think the most obvious link is with Giannoulis - same nationality and indeed played together for the Greek national side.

[hepphep 175]

8 hours ago, Tzol Machine said:

You have no idea what Tzolis is capable of, have you watched his highlights from last year? 
 

Or are you just ****ting on him because the team said so?

And unfortunately there is huge gap of quality between Greek league and EPL which explains some of the highlights. We likely have many other players as well who would set the league in flames there. I have no doubt he will come good, but I also agree that it seems that Rowe is currently better capable on carrying his weight on this level than Tzolis.

Tzolis is young, he is learning, and he has to take couple more development steps to earn his place in the team. Would be surprised if it happens this season already (but take it happily!). But I think he has talent to possibly make it in year or two.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

12 hours ago, Tzol Machine said:

You have no idea what Tzolis is capable of, have you watched his highlights from last year? 
 

Or are you just ****ting on him because the team said so?

I'm definitely not going to be writing off a 19 year old, and I'm hopeful that he'll end up making a huge impact for us (perhaps one for next season), only have to look at how poor Idah and Sargent looked at the start of this season and how good they look now to see that writing him off would be very silly.

But with the greatest respect, there is a world of difference between the quality of the Greek League and the Premier League. 

We see this constantly with players who move between the two countries. Look at Chuba Akpom, he's a quality striker in the Greek League, but can't hold down a place in an English second tier side.

Matt Derbyshire was good in the Greek Super League, in England his level was bottom half of the Championship,

In 30 years of Premier League football perhaps 3 Greeks have succeeded here, most fail.

Like I said, I find it difficult to judge a 19 year old and he's got time on his side, I'm hopeful he will do well, but so far he has simply not impressed against top tier opposition. He did however impress against second tier opposition in the cup, perhaps a year in the Championship to adjust to the English mentality and regain confidence against slower defenders is what he needs.

Edited February 22, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,157]

Defences in the Greek league are a joke and for me Tzolis hasn't worked hard enough when he's been played. Rowe hasn't done much in an attacking sense but has shown glimpses of maturity in games by working for the team when protecting a lead or running down the clock. 

I'm not writing Tzolis off or at the expense of Rowe just because he's one of our own instead of a new signing, but I need to see more from a clearly talented player before stating that he deserves to be involved over a very hard working academy player. I do worry about his lack of pace as a wide player though, I think that's why despite his talents other PL teams haven't taken a chance on him and we got him, he looks like a player that should be playing in Europe where the football is slower and less intense, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Christoph Stiepermann

[spencer 1970 208]

https://video.avfc.co.uk/video/dm9kJTdDMF9yZTM0bzA3OCU3QyUyRnNlY3Rpb24lM0ZzbHVnJTNEaG9tZSU3Q2hvbWUlMkZoZXJvX2Nhcm91c2VsJTdDdW5kZWZpbmVk

i just watched the highlights and although hard to tell from this, I wouldnt mind us having that Carney Chukwuemeka on loan next season...looks class.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,184]

1 hour ago, spencer 1970 said:

https://video.avfc.co.uk/video/dm9kJTdDMF9yZTM0bzA3OCU3QyUyRnNlY3Rpb24lM0ZzbHVnJTNEaG9tZSU3Q2hvbWUlMkZoZXJvX2Nhcm91c2VsJTdDdW5kZWZpbmVk

i just watched the highlights and although hard to tell from this, I wouldnt mind us having that Carney Chukwuemeka on loan next season...looks class.

Possible, but unlikely I would say. He has already been described in various places as "the best young player in England" and has already made 9 Premier League appearances for Villa this season (1 start and 8 as a sub). You may recall him coming on and setting up Villa's second against us in the home game against them.   

Webber tried hard to get his brother (Caleb Chukwuemeka) from Northampton earlier this season, but in the end he went to Villa as well. He is currently on loan at Livingstone along with our very own Sebastian Soto. 

[Tzol Machine 27]

6 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I'm definitely not going to be writing off a 19 year old, and I'm hopeful that he'll end up making a huge impact for us (perhaps one for next season), only have to look at how poor Idah and Sargent looked at the start of this season and how good they look now to see that writing him off would be very silly.

But with the greatest respect, there is a world of difference between the quality of the Greek League and the Premier League. 

We see this constantly with players who move between the two countries. Look at Chuba Akpom, he's a quality striker in the Greek League, but can't hold down a place in an English second tier side.

Matt Derbyshire was good in the Greek Super League, in England his level was bottom half of the Championship,

In 30 years of Premier League football perhaps 3 Greeks have succeeded here, most fail.

Like I said, I find it difficult to judge a 19 year old and he's got time on his side, I'm hopeful he will do well, but so far he has simply not impressed against top tier opposition. He did however impress against second tier opposition in the cup, perhaps a year in the Championship to adjust to the English mentality and regain confidence against slower defenders is what he needs.

Im not sure againt's Liverpool he looked great, we will see. I'm not super satisfied with his mental strength and the way he's dealing with adversity right now. Also not sure why he went to greece to celebrate his birthday. The team should have loaned him back to greece if they don't have a spot for him right now so at least he can work on his confidence. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, Tzol Machine said:

The team should have loaned him back to greece if they don't have a spot for him right now so at least he can work on his confidence. 

I think its pretty clear that he's played for the U23s to build match fitness because we will need to use him now that Idah is out for the season. 

He's only just turned 20, no harm in him having to wait for his opportunity to come, now that it will come he needs to take it... simple. 

And no, we shouldn't loan him back to Greece, think a Greek club is going to pay 100% of his Norwich City wages? We aren't a charity, and we need him to adjust to English football, going back to Greece won't help that. 

[Mason 47 1,420]

Can't find the article now, but I'm sure I read a detailed Athletic piece on CTz earlier in the season about his pathway into high-level football. A lot of grafting, taking chances and tackling challenges.

This season hasn't really worked out for him but there's plenty of time for that to come around. Just perhaps not the best idea to sign someone so raw in the position we were in, back in summer.

 

[Google Bot 3,390]

^ The outside perspective is interesting on Kabak playing for our U23's, especially how that post has been worded.

It doesn't seem so drastic for me as it's been a gradual process of him knocking on the door, giving the ball away, and Gibson & Hanley becoming settled.

But when you consider where he was last than a year ago to where he is now - it definitely is a hell of a drop.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Kabak doesn't look very good to me.

Poor reader of the game, positional sense is terrible and leaves his centre back partner with too much to do.

Would be nice if you could just take his pace and give it to Ben Gibson. 

He's young so could prove me wrong, but looks bang average to me and like he has a hell of a lot to learn. We have a better young centre back in AO. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[kirku 1,339]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

^ The outside perspective is interesting on Kabak playing for our U23's, especially how that post has been worded.

It doesn't seem so drastic for me as it's been a gradual process of him knocking on the door, giving the ball away, and Gibson & Hanley becoming settled.

But when you consider where he was last than a year ago to where he is now - it definitely is a hell of a drop.

AO is streets ahead of Kabak - who I thought was better than he's shown for Norwich (purely based on pedigree, can't pretend to have seen much of him).

Gibson and Hanley played all of last season together, they were already settled, Kabak has looked like a headless chicken at times

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,157]

I see a lot of potential in Kabak but he has all the typical issues you would associate with a 21yo CB playing in the PL, namely his rawness, tendency to switch off, poor decision making and lack of positional discipline, he'll be a good player in a few years, not the signing we needed last summer though, suppose you could say the same with Tzolis even though I have a few more doubts there, these are the sort of signings you make after you've stayed up and consolidated your position in this league 

Saying that however since Smith has come in every player who's played regularly has improved under his management, that would suggest that the same would happen to Kabak if he got a run in the team, he's just been unfortunate that astonishingly for our club it looks like for once we have a PL class cb pairing fit and playing well together and he can't get in the team as a result. Hanley and Gibson have surprised me this season actually, been really impressed with them both and I had my doubts going into this season particularly regarding Gibson but they've both been good and if we go down the CB position is one of the last places I'd be pointing fingers. It's a strange things to say because it's usually the problem are for us at this level, but this time around it's central midfield that's the issue and in theory that should have been easier to get right

Edited February 23, 2022 by Christoph Stiepermann

[Jim Smith 2,365]

On 22/02/2022 at 09:06, hogesar said:

No, it's more likely because Rowe has looked better than Tzolis when he's played.

In fairness (and I’m not having a go at Rowe here as I think he looks promising) I don’t think Rowe has shown anything during his time on the pitch to justify him getting on ahead of Tzolis but then equally I think Tzolis has been a bit harshly treated in terms of the amount of game time he’s been given. 

[hogesar 9,818]

53 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

In fairness (and I’m not having a go at Rowe here as I think he looks promising) I don’t think Rowe has shown anything during his time on the pitch to justify him getting on ahead of Tzolis but then equally I think Tzolis has been a bit harshly treated in terms of the amount of game time he’s been given. 

He's shown a better touch, a better tactical understanding, more pace and more work-rate in his limited game time to Tzolis. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

4 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

Can't find the article now, but I'm sure I read a detailed Athletic piece on CTz earlier in the season about his pathway into high-level football. A lot of grafting, taking chances and tackling challenges.

This season hasn't really worked out for him but there's plenty of time for that to come around. Just perhaps not the best idea to sign someone so raw in the position we were in, back in summer.

 

Yep. There are plenty of 24 year olds that didn't hit the ground running in the Premiership, let alone a 19 year old.

[Jim Smith 2,365]

20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He's shown a better touch, a better tactical understanding, more pace and more work-rate in his limited game time to Tzolis. 

Notvrra

 

20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He's shown a better touch, a better tactical understanding, more pace and more work-rate in his limited game time to Tzolis. 

not really. He’s not done anything at all to suggest he’s ready (or any more ready that Tzolis anyway) in any of the games I’ve seen. Smacks of trying to push his price tag up a bit due to having “premier league experience.”

But that’s not his fault. He’s a decent young player. Not his fault our forward options are so poor by premier league standards that we have to chuck players in earlier than is ideal. 

[lake district canary 4,562]

Give the lad time. No doubt his confidence has suffered a bit, but that can return once he gets going. Young lad, maybe a bit homesick, obvious talent but not yet adapted to the frenetic English game - but that will come. Just get off his back, I would say and if he has the class in him, it will appear sooner or later.

[Robert N. LiM 4,664]

2 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Kabak [...] has all the typical issues you would associate with a 21yo CB playing in the PL, namely his rawness, tendency to switch off, poor decision making and lack of positional discipline, he'll be a good player in a few years

I do wonder whether some of this is exacerbated by his feeling that Norwich is a little bit beneath him. Those buccaneering runs that leave us utterly exposed at the back smack of over-confidence to me.

I suspect he and Tzolis probably both suffered with the change of coach. Beginning to get to grips with what DF wanted from them then having to start again with DS. Certainly we haven't really seen much from either of them, which is really disappointing considering the potential they both surely have.

[spencer 1970 208]

5 hours ago, Google Bot said:

^ The outside perspective is interesting on Kabak playing for our U23's, especially how that post has been worded.

It doesn't seem so drastic for me as it's been a gradual process of him knocking on the door, giving the ball away, and Gibson & Hanley becoming settled.

But when you consider where he was last than a year ago to where he is now - it definitely is a hell of a drop.

A great "headline" but the facts are Liverpool lost that game 3-1 and Kabak got subbed, which is rare as a centre-back. I'm voting he had a stinker like at Chelsea away this season. His flaws do get shown up against the better sides.