Furlough

[Canaries north 151]

Not sure how everyone else feels about this but it does upset me that we have taken £1.7 million in furlough from the government. I feel on promotion we should not have just stopped taking it we should have paid it back. I believe no other premier League team took it after a backlash. I also know Watford didn't take any and gave over their ground to the hospital next door providing free food and washing facilities plus staffing costing them nearly 500 thousand pounds. I only know this because a Watford friend keeps going on about it. Not sure if Brentford claimed any. I know we are not a rich club but if we can get promoted and spend £10 million on individual players can we not pay that back. It's a moral thing for me. What does everyone else think?

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,107]

2 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

Not sure how everyone else feels about this but it does upset me that we have taken £1.7 million in furlough from the government. I feel on promotion we should not have just stopped taking it we should have paid it back. I believe no other premier League team took it after a backlash. I also know Watford didn't take any and gave over their ground to the hospital next door providing free food and washing facilities plus staffing costing them nearly 500 thousand pounds. I only know this because a Watford friend keeps going on about it. Not sure if Brentford claimed any. I know we are not a rich club but if we can get promoted and spend £10 million on individual players can we not pay that back. It's a moral thing for me. What does everyone else think?

 

Whatever the club does will always be correct for some on here, yes pay it back. 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

A club announcing profit really has to repay £1.7m tax payers money so it can be spent on Hospitals, schools etc.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Agreed. Totally immoral when we sold a player for over £30M.

[Canaries north 151]

Thank god for that. It's not just me. A friend of mine said I was wrong for suggesting it. It just seems immoral to me. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Agree, should be repaid.

"Self funded" shouldn't mean sucking from the teet of the state. 

[daly 512]

Give ‘im the money Mabel

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

125,000 companies voluntarily paid back some or all of their furlough cash.

A little ashamed that we aren't one of them.

[Commonsense 651]

Multi million pound companies used furlough. It was a scheme set up to deal with a unique situation. Surely football clubs, especially those that aren’t the playthings of billionaires, have as much right to use it as any other companies.

[Canaries north 151]

8 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

Multi million pound companies used furlough. It was a scheme set up to deal with a unique situation. Surely football clubs, especially those that aren’t the playthings of billionaires, have as much right to use it as any other companies.

To use it was no problem. When we gained promotion I feel we had a moral obligation to pay it back. How can it be right that we have £1.7 million in the bank when other clubs did not. We have spent more on transfers than other clubs who have done the decent thing and either not taken or paid back furlough money.  We have always played on the family club mantra and this sits badly with me. 

[Greavsy 2,451]

As ive said before 

Different rules for footballers / football clubs. 

However, and im not defending the club for taking the payments as personally I think any organisation that is reporting a profit should return the money. Please understand that furlough money isnt 'free money' there isnt a cheque for the furloughed amount dropping through the employees letter box every month. it has to be claimed, and the person it is paid to has to be eligible (ie on PAYE previously). Also tax / NI is also paid from the furlough money, so it keeps the HMRC cogs turning (although if the club / organisation was paying the individual the tax /  NI would still get paid in that scenario too).

My undertanding is the people who got furloughed were those in customer facing jobs, (club shop / ticket office etc) which closed overnight so absolutely met the furlough criteria. However an organisation whoever they are / what they do should reply the payment 100%  

[Ken Hairy 3,782]

Totally agree we should pay it back, at the time it was correct we used the scheme, however once we gained promotion and our financial goalposts moved, 100% we should pay what then became a small amount of money to us back. Beggars belief anyone would think otherwise. 

[Commonsense 651]

56 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

To use it was no problem. When we gained promotion I feel we had a moral obligation to pay it back. How can it be right that we have £1.7 million in the bank when other clubs did not. We have spent more on transfers than other clubs who have done the decent thing and either not taken or paid back furlough money.  We have always played on the family club mantra and this sits badly with me. 

But none of the furlough money was used on players, so I don’t see how gaining promotion changes things. It pales in comparison to the tax avoidance schemes a number of companies follow.

[BroadstairsR 2,215]

There is a case for a proportion of it to be paid back, but not all of it.

Furlough money was not totally lost to the economy .... no government handouts, from social security to pensions, are.

Furlough money maintained the purchasing power of its recipients and therefore helped the economy go round in accord with this. 

The exchequer will have  retrieved a large proportion through taxes on spending (VAT on petrol, booze etc.etc.) or on the income from those whose businesses or jobs were maintained by this spending.

There will be some so-called leakage, but even this will have been mitigated by lockdown and travel restrictions. How much of the "Great British staycation" throughout the Summer was financed by furlough money?  As tourist destinations thrived their tax bills increased.

How these basics need apply to a football club like Norwich City, who reportedly lost £30m due to pandemic restrictions, requires careful consideration. 

Like most things, it's not simply all black and white.

Edited October 27, 2021 by BroadstairsR

[wcorkcanary 4,349]

12 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

But none of the furlough money was used on players, so I don’t see how gaining promotion changes things. It pales in comparison to the tax avoidance schemes a number of companies follow.

Doesn't matter. Surely you remember the old saying 'just cos jonny jumped off the cliff , doesn't mean you have to as well. We all have  to plough our own furrow in life. Etc etc.

What others do is irrelevant, we must do what's right. Pay it back and sleep the sleep of the innocent.

[wcorkcanary 4,349]

7 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Like most things, it's not simply all black and white

While I agree most thing aren't black and white , to me this topic is. Our 'Business'....NCFC, had a pretty good year moneywise, despite covid losses.  So we should thank the govt for the temporary bail out and settle up. Like wise for any other business that turned a profit , those that could, on paper have made a profit but chose not to by investing ( or in a footy clubs case , spend on players) should also be accountable. Some types of business turned over close to zilch for a year ,let alone turn a profit , they are the ones that should be let off the hook.

[Greavsy 2,451]

16 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

While I agree most thing aren't black and white , to me this topic is. Our 'Business'....NCFC, had a pretty good year moneywise, despite covid losses.  So we should thank the govt for the temporary bail out and settle up. Like wise for any other business that turned a profit , those that could, on paper have made a profit but chose not to by investing ( or in a footy clubs case , spend on players) should also be accountable. Some types of business turned over close to zilch for a year ,let alone turn a profit , they are the ones that should be let off the hook.

Absolutely this

Well said Corkio. 

[City 2nd 191]

2 hours ago, Commonsense said:

Multi million pound companies used furlough. It was a scheme set up to deal with a unique situation. Surely football clubs, especially those that aren’t the playthings of billionaires, have as much right to use it as any other companies.

Yes, but did those multi million pound companies sell a player for 38 million after getting paid handsomely for gaining promotion! I very much doubt they did! With care in the community rising and hospital staff working all the hours required by their bosses and more, wouldn’t it be prudent for a community football club to pay its dues, instead of milking the system!

[Commonsense 651]

40 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

While I agree most thing aren't black and white , to me this topic is. Our 'Business'....NCFC, had a pretty good year moneywise, despite covid losses.  So we should thank the govt for the temporary bail out and settle up. Like wise for any other business that turned a profit , those that could, on paper have made a profit but chose not to by investing ( or in a footy clubs case , spend on players) should also be accountable. Some types of business turned over close to zilch for a year ,let alone turn a profit , they are the ones that should be let off the hook.

However, we only turned a profit because we sold an asset. Most other businesses could do the same, so I don’t see how that is a justification.

[dylanisabaddog 5,021]

I beg to differ. We are the only self funded club in the top 2 divisions yet we contribute millions to the Exchequer in PAYE, VAT and even Corporation Tax. We do not have a sugar daddy to support us unlike virtually all the other clubs in the top 2 divisions. We lost £30m due to Covid-19 and most of that can be blamed on the most corrupt, inept Government of my lifetime. Why shouldn't we claim back a fraction of the amount we have paid over in the last few years? 

If you want to vent your anger over Government subsidies look no further than foxhunt groups who have taken your money or the old boys of Eton school who have trousered billions at your expense. 

[daly 512]

10 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I beg to differ. We are the only self funded club in the top 2 divisions yet we contribute millions to the Exchequer in PAYE, VAT and even Corporation Tax. We do not have a sugar daddy to support us unlike virtually all the other clubs in the top 2 divisions. We lost £30m due to Covid-19 and most of that can be blamed on the most corrupt, inept Government of my lifetime. Why shouldn't we claim back a fraction of the amount we have paid over in the last few years? 

If you want to vent your anger over Government subsidies look no further than foxhunt groups who have taken your money or the old boys of Eton school who have trousered billions at your expense. 

Hyde Park Corner with me little box 

Here I come

[Chelm Canary 404]

I'm firmly in the corner of that money should be repaid. 

I was disappointed we went with the furlough option in the first place. 

I know the furlough scheme offered 80%. Doesn't anybody know if the club topped it up to 100%? A lot of companies did this.

[wcorkcanary 4,349]

15 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

However, we only turned a profit because we sold an asset. Most other businesses could do the same, so I don’t see how that is a justification.

It's just how I see life in general Senso , pay your way, pay it forward now and again, that's what money is for. Not wriggling and squeaking  to avoid paying your  share. 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The club likes promote itself as a Community club. Not acting like one.

[Duncan Edwards 2,271]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

The club likes promote itself as a Community club. Not acting like one.

As such, if they are to do something with the furlough money, I’d much prefer they committed to donating a figure equivalent to the money received to the CSF or other local causes.

I’d have far more faith in the money being used to “benefit people” in the hands of the CSF than I would in the hands of the Government. 

[Norfolk Dan 308]

To those with a moral argument or view.point.. Write to your MP and get such morals incorporated into an act of parliament....  (It's all an act!) 

Can't be bothered!? Cause I bet not one of you has contacted them and told them what you think..... 

Play by the rules "acts of parliament" and judge them for upholding those. 

Anything else is just pub talk over a beer.. just like this forum....

... 

[wcorkcanary 4,349]

7 minutes ago, Duncan Edwards said:

 

I’d have far more faith in the money being used to “benefit people” in the hands of the CSF than I would in the hands of the Government. 

If only that were the case Duncano, imagine being able to decide what your taxes are spent on. Its an old fashioned and little achieved ideal called true democracy. Not this overblown wasteful system that claims to be democracy, occasionally,  normally when looking for re election. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by wcorkcanary
Can't spell

[dylanisabaddog 5,021]

1 hour ago, Norfolk Dan said:

To those with a moral argument or view.point.. Write to your MP and get such morals incorporated into an act of parliament....  (It's all an act!) 

Can't be bothered!? Cause I bet not one of you has contacted them and told them what you think..... 

Play by the rules "acts of parliament" and judge them for upholding those. 

Anything else is just pub talk over a beer.. just like this forum....

... 

I refer you to the Richard Bacon thread in the non football section 

[dylanisabaddog 5,021]

2 hours ago, daly said:

Hyde Park Corner with me little box 

Here I come

Let us know when you get there. If you try saying 'my' instead of 'me' someone may stop to listen. 

[Monty13 2,255]

6 hours ago, Canaries north said:

Not sure how everyone else feels about this but it does upset me that we have taken £1.7 million in furlough from the government. I feel on promotion we should not have just stopped taking it we should have paid it back. I believe no other premier League team took it after a backlash. I also know Watford didn't take any and gave over their ground to the hospital next door providing free food and washing facilities plus staffing costing them nearly 500 thousand pounds. I only know this because a Watford friend keeps going on about it. Not sure if Brentford claimed any. I know we are not a rich club but if we can get promoted and spend £10 million on individual players can we not pay that back. It's a moral thing for me. What does everyone else think?

 

I think morally there should be a social media backlash much larger than the BK8 deal, but I bet there won’t be.