Emi

[Terminally Yellow 2,492]

38 minutes ago, unique said:

There is much more to this than just losing a player. Buendia is by far our biggest and best asset to providing enough goals and assists next season to avoid relegation and break the cycle of yoyoing between the divisions.

The timing of his possible departure could not be worse. The clubs touted as interested could not be much worse.

Aston Villa relied almost totally on two players last season. Martinez was probably PL goalkeeper of the year, and Grealish is their overall talisman. Aston Villa achieved 1.75 ppg when Grealish played, less than 1ppg when he was injured. There is nothing in those stats that suggests they will be competing in the top half next season.

Arsenal, because of their FA Cup successes in recent seasons, have to be classed as a ‘top four’ club, but they have flattered to deceive since the departure of Arsene Wenger. Neither club will be challenging for the PL title.

Buendia has just won two trophies in three years with Norwich. Trophy wins that are far more valuable to a club than an FA Cup or EFL  Cup win.

Nothing so far quoted from Buendia has suggested that he is hankering for a move. He is back in the PL, he has been called up for Argentina, and he seems perfectly settled in Norfolk.

The two men most keen for a Buendia move seem to be Webber ( probably to fill the covid financial hole at the club ), and at a guess, Buendia’s agent.

Norwich are already favourites for relegation, even more so than Watford and Brentford. The sale of Buendia increases those odds immeasurably.

What then?

Relegation will inevitably see the departure of Webber. Farke is unlikely to want to try the whole process a third time, and before we know it, we’ve missed out on THE golden opportunity to build on success.

Ironically, Buendia’s call up for Argentina means he is ‘mixing it’ with Martinez, whose two main clubs have been Aston Villa and Arsenal. It doesn’t look very promising.

This is filled with assumptions and conclusions drawn with literally no evidence. In fact it's largely contradicted by what's come from the club.

Timing could not be worse? We've just gotten back to the Premier League. It would have been far worse losing him this time last year, when we would have had to source a replacement without the prestige and money brought in by being where we are.

The club's couldn't be worse? Arsenal is a far bigger club than us and likely - based on evidence of second half of last season to be fighting for champions league next season. I share the feelings about Villa though.

Buendia isn't agitating for a move? He was dropped last year for exactly that! Remember the article he did in the press which was unsanctioned which caused him to get dropped by Farke? It's been quoted recently that him and his agent 

Why would Webber want to see Buendia sold? Makes no sense. He has been interviewed repeatedly and has said repeatedly that any money would be invested in the squad or infrastructure. Again - why would Webber definitely leave upon relegation? I think he would more likely leave if we stayed up. I suspect he'd consider unfinished business if he left after a relegation.

I get why you feel this is a really bad thing, but you need to keep your arguments based in reality and not out of fear and assumption.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,360]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Yet again, all this was said about Brady, the Murphy's, Pritchard, Maddison, Lewis and Godfrey. We actually improved overall from pretty much all of those sales. Why can't people focus on the stunning work our recruitment team does rather than throwing a paddy every time we lose a player?

With the exception of Maddison, none of those players were our talisman. Maddison was sold because of the financial black hole, which was acknowledged openly by the club, we had literally no choice. We sold Godfrey and Lewis to offset being relegated. We’ve now been promoted, what is motivating the sale for the club? Remember that at the end of the day football comes down to having the best 11 players on the pitch and winning football games, the odds of us doing that enough to avoid relegation this season are immeasurably damaged by Buendia’s sale.

I’ll re-iterate my core point: we don’t need the money. We don’t need to sell him, and to do so damages our chances of staying up. Emi signed a contract, he threw his toys out the pram last season and got nowhere, so he knows the score with Webber and Farke. Our priority, the club’s priority right now is to stay in the EPL this season. No-one has so far come up with a solid argument as to how selling Emi furthers that objective.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Canary Wundaboy

[Indy_Bones 442]

4 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

We’ve now been promoted, what is motivating the sale for the club?

THE PLAYER WANTING TO MOVE TO A BIGGER CLUB!

Our priority, the club’s priority right now is to stay in the EPL this season. No-one has so far come up with a solid argument as to how selling Emi furthers that objective.

Because there isn't one, as it wouldn't be a sale out of choice, but one forced upon us should the player want to move, and should the buying club be able to offer the price we want.

I'll re-iterate this until I'm blue in the face, if a player wants a move, it WILL happen, it doesn't matter what our desires or objectives are, it doesn't matter what contract we have, it doesn't matter that it would definitely weaken our club and be a player incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to get anywhere near replacing, IF they want to go, a player WILL force a move through, as it's simply too damaging financially, in terms of morale and in terms of performance for the club to try to insist otherwise, as well as all the other ancillary knock-on effects this stance would have.

Stop thinking in terms of what the club and fans ideally want, and accept that it's down to what the player wants and if another club is willing to pay a sensible price for it to happen, end of.

[hogesar 9,817]

15 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

I'll re-iterate this until I'm blue in the face, if a player wants a move, it WILL happen, it doesn't matter what our desires or objectives are, it doesn't matter what contract we have, it doesn't matter that it would definitely weaken our club and be a player incredibly difficult (if not impossible) to get anywhere near replacing, IF they want to go, a player WILL force a move through, as it's simply too damaging financially, in terms of morale and in terms of performance for the club to try to insist otherwise, as well as all the other ancillary knock-on effects this stance would have.

Stop thinking in terms of what the club and fans ideally want, and accept that it's down to what the player wants and if another club is willing to pay a sensible price for it to happen, end of.

You've been bang on throughout this thread, Indy.

Don't go and ruin by suggesting we sign RvW or something similar though 😉

[king canary 7,705]

20 minutes ago, Indy_Bones said:

I'll re-iterate this until I'm blue in the face, if a player wants a move, it WILL happen

And I'll reiterate it isnt true.

[Jim Smith 2,365]

1 hour ago, Indy_Bones said:

I really don't get why so many of our fans seem unable to grasp a relatively simple truth, in that if a player wants a move AND an interested club is willing to pay the amount we value said player at - they get sold.

If we try to hardball on the price and make it unrealistic for any interested party, the player can easily down tools and we get ZERO benefit from them again, which then combines with the issue that we present a fantastic option for younger talents to come here, get developed, get games and should a great deal appear we thank them for their contribution, make a tidy profit and look for the next great option. But if instead a 'big' club comes knocking with a suitable price, yet we tell the player 'tough, you've got a contract', then suddenly we don't look like an amazing option anymore, we instead look like a dead end, and a club that will actively stand in their way if they perform to a high level from getting a move they may well deserve and genuinely feel is the right choice for their career.

It's not about whether not we WANT to sell Emi, it's not about claiming that Webber is courting interest and we have no ambition, it's 2 simple factors - does Emi want a move (regardless of whether or not we as fans rate the clubs in for him) and will said club pay what we want. If it's the former, then no matter what we say, a move WILL happen, no matter how much hand-wringing or screaming about contracts occurs. If it's the latter, negotiations will happen, but even then there could easily be a point where the player loses his patience and we're back to point 1 again.

Let me repeat, we ALL want Emi to say, we ALL know how valuable he is to the team and how much we want him stay, even if it's just for another season, NOBODY wants to sell him, be it to Athletico, Arsenal, Villa or whoever else may have the cash we'd demand, but the players hold all the cards (contracts be-damned), and there needs to be an acceptance that a potential sale is purely likely to be because the player wants more in their career - a bigger name club, more chance of Europe, more chance of caps etc, and at this point we can't beat that regardless of whether or not we could (or would) offer more wages.

In the last 25 years, Arsenal have only finished outside the top six TWICE, and whilst this may be their two most recent seasons after undergoing major changes from the departure of Wenger (much like Man Utd did after Fergie), anyone who feels they aren't a MUCH bigger club than us need to take a serious dose of reality pills, they have the stadium, the support, the money, the history and a team of extremely good players, a number of which are world class and could play anywhere (e.g. Aubameyang), yet some of our fans seem to think this is a weak choice and they're nothing special - over 50 years unbroken in the top flight, 3 league titles in the PL (including an 8 year spell of ONLY being 1st or 2nd) 8 FA Cup titles in the PL era and a 19 year run in the Champions League says otherwise...

Emi is not going to down tools for 3 years if we deny him a move. He may sulk for a week or two but ultimately he’s a professional, playing in the premier at a good club. 

[Ward 3 386]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

And I'll reiterate it isnt true.

More often than not the players get what they want if not they'll cry like a baby. Look at yaya toure and his birthday cake for example 😂.

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

26 minutes ago, king canary said:

And I'll reiterate it isnt true.

And I'll  reiterate that if the price is is met and the players wants to go , it ALMOST always happens. Very little is black and white,and if SW and DF can buck the trend then fantastic. Keep Emi , keep him happy , keep us up.

 

 

[king canary 7,705]

1 minute ago, Ward 3 said:

More often than not the players get what they want if not they'll cry like a baby. Look at yaya toure and his birthday cake for example 😂.

Yaya Toure isn't a great example as he went on to play for them for another 3 or 4 seasons and did a decent job.

A quick Google shows Wilf Zaha and Jack Grealish both reportedly handed in transfer requests in the last couple of seasons yet both are still at their clubs doing excellent jobs.

Leeds turned down bids for Kalvin Phillips from Spurs.

Even bloody Ipswich kept Flynn Downes after he handed in a transfer request due to interest from Crystal Palace. 

This idea that once a player wants a move his club is powerless is just a narrative that doesn't actually hold up to much scrutiny.

 

[Ward 3 386]

50 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yaya Toure isn't a great example as he went on to play for them for another 3 or 4 seasons and did a decent job.

A quick Google shows Wilf Zaha and Jack Grealish both reportedly handed in transfer requests in the last couple of seasons yet both are still at their clubs doing excellent jobs.

Leeds turned down bids for Kalvin Phillips from Spurs.

Even bloody Ipswich kept Flynn Downes after he handed in a transfer request due to interest from Crystal Palace. 

This idea that once a player wants a move his club is powerless is just a narrative that doesn't actually hold up to much scrutiny.

 

Jesus I was only messing about with the yaya toure quote. Well done you for googling all these players who stayed at clubs 😂

[king canary 7,705]

1 minute ago, Ward 3 said:

Jesus I was only messing about with the yaya toure quote. Well done you for googling all these players who stayed at clubs 😂

Yes, silly me for me thinking you were actually posting about the topic at hand.

[benjamin86 0]

59 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yaya Toure isn't a great example as he went on to play for them for another 3 or 4 seasons and did a decent job.

A quick Google shows Wilf Zaha and Jack Grealish both reportedly handed in transfer requests in the last couple of seasons yet both are still at their clubs doing excellent jobs.

Leeds turned down bids for Kalvin Phillips from Spurs.

Even bloody Ipswich kept Flynn Downes after he handed in a transfer request due to interest from Crystal Palace. 

This idea that once a player wants a move his club is powerless is just a narrative that doesn't actually hold up to much scrutiny.

 

Zaha's form has dropped off hugely in the last couple of seasons. I know he scored his most premiership goals this season but it's also probably the best Crystal Palace attack he's been a part of.

[Ward 3 386]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yes, silly me for me thinking you were actually posting about the topic at hand.

Yeah the thread I made myself 🤔🔔🔚

[unique 445]

2 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

This is filled with assumptions and conclusions drawn with literally no evidence. In fact it's largely contradicted by what's come from the club.

Timing could not be worse? We've just gotten back to the Premier League. It would have been far worse losing him this time last year, when we would have had to source a replacement without the prestige and money brought in by being where we are.

The club's couldn't be worse? Arsenal is a far bigger club than us and likely - based on evidence of second half of last season to be fighting for champions league next season. I share the feelings about Villa though.

Buendia isn't agitating for a move? He was dropped last year for exactly that! Remember the article he did in the press which was unsanctioned which caused him to get dropped by Farke? It's been quoted recently that him and his agent 

Why would Webber want to see Buendia sold? Makes no sense. He has been interviewed repeatedly and has said repeatedly that any money would be invested in the squad or infrastructure. Again - why would Webber definitely leave upon relegation? I think he would more likely leave if we stayed up. I suspect he'd consider unfinished business if he left after a relegation.

I get why you feel this is a really bad thing, but you need to keep your arguments based in reality and not out of fear and assumption.

If Buendia was agitating for a move last season it was because he wanted to be playing in the PL.

.That bridge has been crossed with Norwich’s promotion.

If he wants to leave to win trophies, the only chance he has with Arsenal or Villa is the lottery of the cups. Arsenal, like Tottenham, might qualify for the Champions League, but will rarely threaten the last eight in the competition.

As it happens, Norwich are one of very few clubs to have won three trophies over the past 20 years.

If it is salary, then Norwich obviously can’t compete.

I have yet to see a quote from Buendia these past few weeks to say he wants to move. All I have seen is Webber pimping him.

If Webber has been given good reason to do so, then we have yet to have that confirmed.

[benjamin86 0]

6 minutes ago, unique said:

If Buendia was agitating for a move last season it was because he wanted to be playing in the PL.

.That bridge has been crossed with Norwich’s promotion.

If he wants to leave to win trophies, the only chance he has with Arsenal or Villa is the lottery of the cups. Arsenal, like Tottenham, might qualify for the Champions League, but will rarely threaten the last eight in the competition.

As it happens, Norwich are one of very few clubs to have won three trophies over the past 20 years.

If it is salary, then Norwich obviously can’t compete.

I have yet to see a quote from Buendia these past few weeks to say he wants to move. All I have seen is Webber pimping him.

If Webber has been given good reason to do so, then we have yet to have that confirmed.

He's 24, moving to AFC will just be the stepping stone in 3 years time to another club if he continues to improve and AFC don't match his ambitions.

Edited June 4, 2021 by benjamin86

[Icecream Snow 762]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Even bloody Ipswich kept Flynn Downes after he handed in a transfer request due to interest from Crystal Palace. 

This idea that once a player wants a move his club is powerless is just a narrative that doesn't actually hold up to much scrutiny.

...and a year later he's been told to find himself another club.

You can force a player to stay, but you can't force them to motivate themselves.

[Terminally Yellow 2,492]

11 minutes ago, unique said:

If Buendia was agitating for a move last season it was because he wanted to be playing in the PL.

.That bridge has been crossed with Norwich’s promotion.

If he wants to leave to win trophies, the only chance he has with Arsenal or Villa is the lottery of the cups. Arsenal, like Tottenham, might qualify for the Champions League, but will rarely threaten the last eight in the competition.

As it happens, Norwich are one of very few clubs to have won three trophies over the past 20 years.

If it is salary, then Norwich obviously can’t compete.

I have yet to see a quote from Buendia these past few weeks to say he wants to move. All I have seen is Webber pimping him.

If Webber has been given good reason to do so, then we have yet to have that confirmed.

Please do show me some examples of Webber "pimping" him? I've seen examples of Webber saying anyone wanting our players would need to pay club record fees, but nothing specifically "pimping" Buendia out. 

I mean, I'm not sure if you've missed the article in which Emi says he wants to play at the "highest level" and "challenge for titles", but it's here. To me, that's a bigger come get me plea than anything I've seen Webber say. 

And Norwich has won three Championship (division 2) trophies in the last twenty years. All well and good - Arsenal who you seem so keen to suggest is not a club worthy of Buendia's interest - has won 8 in that same period. 3 Premier League trophies and 5 FA Cups. 

Your arguments are a little underwhelming, I'm afraid. 

[benjamin86 0]

1 minute ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Please do show me some examples of Webber "pimping" him? I've seen examples of Webber saying anyone wanting our players would need to pay club record fees, but nothing specifically "pimping" Buendia out. 

I mean, I'm not sure if you've missed the article in which Emi says he wants to play at the "highest level" and "challenge for titles", but it's here. To me, that's a bigger come get me plea than anything I've seen Webber say. 

And Norwich has won three Championship (division 2) trophies in the last twenty years. All well and good - Arsenal who you seem so keen to suggest is not a club worthy of Buendia's interest - has won 8 in that same period. 3 Premier League trophies and 5 FA Cups. 

Your arguments are a little underwhelming, I'm afraid. 

I wonder if players thinking about the "highest level" even consider division 2 to be trophies?

[Nuff Said 5,246]

4 hours ago, unique said:

There is much more to this than just losing a player. Buendia is by far our biggest and best asset to providing enough goals and assists next season to avoid relegation and break the cycle of yoyoing between the divisions.

The timing of his possible departure could not be worse. The clubs touted as interested could not be much worse.

Aston Villa relied almost totally on two players last season. Martinez was probably PL goalkeeper of the year, and Grealish is their overall talisman. Aston Villa achieved 1.75 ppg when Grealish played, less than 1ppg when he was injured. There is nothing in those stats that suggests they will be competing in the top half next season.

Arsenal, because of their FA Cup successes in recent seasons, have to be classed as a ‘top four’ club, but they have flattered to deceive since the departure of Arsene Wenger. Neither club will be challenging for the PL title.

Buendia has just won two trophies in three years with Norwich. Trophy wins that are far more valuable to a club than an FA Cup or EFL  Cup win.

Nothing so far quoted from Buendia has suggested that he is hankering for a move. He is back in the PL, he has been called up for Argentina, and he seems perfectly settled in Norfolk.

The two men most keen for a Buendia move seem to be Webber ( probably to fill the covid financial hole at the club ), and at a guess, Buendia’s agent.

Norwich are already favourites for relegation, even more so than Watford and Brentford. The sale of Buendia increases those odds immeasurably.

What then?

Relegation will inevitably see the departure of Webber. Farke is unlikely to want to try the whole process a third time, and before we know it, we’ve missed out on THE golden opportunity to build on success.

Ironically, Buendia’s call up for Argentina means he is ‘mixing it’ with Martinez, whose two main clubs have been Aston Villa and Arsenal. It doesn’t look very promising.

Tl;dr - we’re doomed

[unique 445]

75% of the clubs in England would prefer to win the Championship Trophy than the two cup competitions.

Norwich have won three trophies in twenty years. There can only be half a dozen or so clubs that have won more in that time.

It is certainly more than Everton, Spurs, West Ham, Wolves, Southampton, Brighton, Burnley , etc.

Arsenal are a big club when it comes to history, stadium size, salaries, perception.....but if Buendia wants a guarantee of trophies then he would have to move to the Manchester clubs, Chelsea or abroad.

Moving to Arsenal or Villa will not have him ‘challenging for titles’.

Edited June 4, 2021 by unique
Make an addition.

[benjamin86 0]

8 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Tl;dr - we’re doomed

Buendia goes then you reinvest in the defense and players that make you hard to beat. A good defense keeps more teams in the league than a good attack.

[benjamin86 0]

15 minutes ago, unique said:

75% of the clubs in England would prefer to win the Championship Trophy than the two cup competitions.

Norwich have won three trophies in twenty years. There can only be half a dozen or so clubs that have won more in that time.

It is certainly more than Everton, Spurs, West Ham, Wolves, Southampton, Brighton, Burnley , etc.

Arsenal are a big club when it comes to history, stadium size, salaries, perception.....but if Buendia wants a guarantee of trophies then he would have to move to the Manchester clubs, Chelsea or abroad.

Moving to Arsenal or Villa will not have him ‘challenging for titles’.

But they're logically the next stepping stone towards  ‘challenging for titles’.

 

"75% of the clubs in England would prefer to win the Championship Trophy than the two cup competitions." - But the trophy isnt the value? It's being in the premiership. Second in Championship and winning the FA Cup or come first and win the Championship.....they're not picking the championship trophy.

Edited June 4, 2021 by benjamin86

[Nuff Said 5,246]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

And I'll reiterate it isnt true.

I know you’ve said you have an Athletic subscription in the past. Read this and then tell us that players can’t force a move if they want it.

https://theathletic.com/1530084/2021/05/20/how-to-force-a-transfer/?source=user_shared_article

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,905]

2 hours ago, unique said:

Norwich have won three trophies in twenty years. There can only be half a dozen or so clubs that have won more in that time.

Actually, it's four 😉

Second tier titles in 2004, 2019 and 2021 plus a third tier title in 2010.

[cornish sam 968]

25 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Actually, it's four 😉

Second tier titles in 2004, 2019 and 2021 plus a third tier title in 2010.

5 actually, we got one for the playoffs as well 😁

 

All this talk of " we don't stand a chance if we sell EMI, he's one of only 3 prem quality players..." Is exactly why now is probably the right time to sell. If we don't sell him then where we do we get the budget to upgrade what needs upgrading? Yes we won't get someone as good as EMI, but, he is top 6 good, we could get 3 or 4 lower to mid prem quality players for this money and then we have increased our chances of staying up.

Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE for us to be able to keep him, but if he goes then it will give us the funds to make a better fist of staying up. For example based in rumoured prices we could get Armstrong, ajer, krunic and still have enough to pay the sell on to getafe!

[hogesar 9,817]

4 hours ago, king canary said:

Yaya Toure isn't a great example as he went on to play for them for another 3 or 4 seasons and did a decent job.

A quick Google shows Wilf Zaha and Jack Grealish both reportedly handed in transfer requests in the last couple of seasons yet both are still at their clubs doing excellent jobs.

Leeds turned down bids for Kalvin Phillips from Spurs.

Even bloody Ipswich kept Flynn Downes after he handed in a transfer request due to interest from Crystal Palace. 

This idea that once a player wants a move his club is powerless is just a narrative that doesn't actually hold up to much scrutiny.

 

Thing is, for every 2 examples you find there will be 200 that suggest otherwise.

[Uncle Fred 526]

We all have supported Norwich long enough he will be sold for one reason and one reason only and that is the lack of ambition of the stowmarket 2 

It will happen no need to argue amongst ourselves. What really hurts this time is that is happening when we are just promoted rather than just relegated

Delia out stinking rich Chinese owner in 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Uncle Fred

[DraytonBoy 169]

Kalvin Philips turned down a move to Villa just after the 2018/19 season on the advice of his gran and promptly signed a new five year contract.

[king canary 7,705]

8 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

I know you’ve said you have an Athletic subscription in the past. Read this and then tell us that players can’t force a move if they want it.

https://theathletic.com/1530084/2021/05/20/how-to-force-a-transfer/?source=user_shared_article

I never said its impossible, I just said people overstate the liklihood of it. So sure, if we reject £40m from Villa and Buendia kicks off to the extent some in that article did then sell. But we shouldn't be accepting bids just because they might.

[horsefly 4,325]

4 hours ago, Uncle Fred said:

We all have supported Norwich long enough he will be sold for one reason and one reason only and that is the lack of ambition of the stowmarket 2 

It will happen no need to argue amongst ourselves. What really hurts this time is that is happening when we are just promoted rather than just relegated

Delia out stinking rich Chinese owner in 

I take it this is meant to be a wind-up. Delia and Mike's personal wealth is estimated at around £23m, "lack of ambition" is a ridiculous claim to make about their stewardship of the club. Indeed, it is actually very disrespectful given the percentage of their wealth they have ploughed into the club to stave off administration. We could easily have been facing another local derby next season if it had not been for their devotion to the club (do feel free to compare their wealth to that of Marcus Evans). What you consider to be "ambition" appears to be nothing more than what the average economist would describe as "reckless gambling". We could of course leverage a £100m spending spree against all our cherished assets. Several clubs have tried that approach and didn't have to wait long to experience the financial destitution, lower league obscurity,  and the regret for such folly and impetuousness. Sheffield United spent £50m and sold no one last season, how very ambitious/stupid (delete as appropriate). 

The idea that the "ambition" of a club can be understood separately from its financial probity and security is utterly ridiculous. The true measure of City's ambition is that they were financially secure enough to hold on to the likes of Buendia, Aarons, Cantwell for an incredible title winning season directly after demotion. 

You may disagree with the current management's perception that we need to sell someone like Buendia in order to raise funds to bolster areas of the team that proved to be seriously lacking the last time we were in the PL. What this most definitely is not, however, is a lack of ambition.