Yellow and Green 334 Posted April 25, 2021 The recent ESL disaster has prompted many fans to call for clubs to switch to a 50+1 model, which is commonly used in Germany. If anyone is unsure, this model ensures that at least 51% of a club is owned by the fans. It is deemed beneficial because it guarantees all decisions are made in the long term interests of the clun, instead of short term greed. The main criticism is that people believe it restricts the pace at which a club can grow. Essentially, a billionaire can't just take control and buy success. Whilst the management structures differ at each club, an example could be Stuttgart's, which is relatable to ours: President: responsible for the overall performance of the club (elected) Three-person board: sporting director, financial officer and marketing director (hired by the club). Whilst many pundits/commentators have expressed the unliklihood of this becoming a realistic option for most clubs, I feel like it is a realistic possibility for us. Delia is dead against handing over the reins to an egotistical millionaire and the fans seem proud of where we are/what we stand for at the moment. Delia has (finally) found a structure that works and this model could be the way to ensure Stuart Webber's approach/ethos is engrained into the culture of our club in the long term. I'd be interested to hear if people would be in favor of this structure, thoughts on the likelihood of this happening, as well as input from anyone with a better knowledge of German football than me! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shannock1956 7 Posted April 25, 2021 This seems an interesting concept. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FenwayFrank 2,459 Posted April 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, Yellow and Green said: It is deemed beneficial because it guarantees all decisions are made in the long term interests of the clun, instead of short term greed Long term interests of the clunge? 1 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FenwayFrank 2,459 Posted April 25, 2021 Just now, Yellow and Green said: *Club Thanks for clarifying 😉 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Norfolk Dan 308 Posted April 25, 2021 25,000 fans. Extra £20 direct debit to own 51% of thek club over 4 years. Raises £25m. Given how many subscribed to the fund raising for the training facility. I think this is well worth some action. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greavsy 2,415 Posted April 25, 2021 I preferred the first one! 14 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said: Thanks for clarifying 😉 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FenwayFrank 2,459 Posted April 25, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Greavsy said: I preferred the first one! I should have known you prefer clunge 😉 Edited April 25, 2021 by FenwayFrank Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greavsy 2,415 Posted April 25, 2021 1 minute ago, FenwayFrank said: I should have known you prefer clunge 😉 Oh how well you know me! after last weeks discovery of what the profanity checker allowed im glad its only clunge you stated! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chicken 2,624 Posted April 25, 2021 There is an interesting aspect of this very few seem to touch on. I'm not sure how official the clubs approach to ownership is now, but wasn't there a commitment post Chase, to never having an outright single owner ever again? Hence why we don't have an owner and have joint majority owners... which is why I laugh very hard when people say Delia out... she is only half the controlling majority ownership and so few people can ever tell me who the other half is. Makes you think, in a way our club was ahead of it's time if after what has happened various clubs look to do the 50+1%. What is more interesting is that people have assumed that the appointment to the board of their nephew was to inherit ownership when the time came. However, that would go against the commitment. So could he be there to see a smooth transition and perhaps a move to a 50+1% model? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WD40 720 Posted April 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Yellow and Green said: If anyone is unsure, this model ensures that at least 51% of a club is owned by the fans. I believe it’s actually 50% + 1 share, so just over half the club is owned by fans. I’ve long wondered whether Norwich could lead the way on this and how fantastic that would be for this club and Delia’s legacy. It would be history making. We absolutely are perfectly positioned as she herself is a big fan, and we’ve embedded a more German culture anyway. I hope the team are looking seriously at it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FenwayFrank 2,459 Posted April 25, 2021 This has been done by Exeter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_City_Supporters'_Trust Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Indy 3,300 Posted April 25, 2021 That’s my biggest issue, football clubs should be part of each town or city’s ownership, it shouldn’t be able to be owned by and single owner in my view, no matter who that might be. Difficult concept to stop though, until football realigns itself to normal level of wages, it’s ludicrous to pay anyone more that 10k a week in sport, christ at that rated after a 10 year career in football you’d earn over £5 million......things will always be in favour of the clubs selling out to rich owners. Salary caps and squad number restrictions are the only way forward to become sustainable and level the playing field to a more competitive league system at all levels. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,940 Posted April 25, 2021 Obvious question - how do the likes of Bayer Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, VfL Wolfsburg and RB Leipzig get around that rule? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A Load of Squit 5,164 Posted April 25, 2021 11 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said: Obvious question - how do the likes of Bayer Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, VfL Wolfsburg and RB Leipzig get around that rule? Not sure about the others but I remember this from a few years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/08/why-rb-leipzig-has-become-the-most-hated-club-in-german-football Also, aren't we already a fan owned club? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crafty Canary 495 Posted April 25, 2021 Whilst Delia and MWJ are joint owners and presumably own say 25.5% of the shares each as they are married to each other they are, in effect, a single majority owning entity. For a genuine 50% + 1 share to be owned by the fans to occur surely this would require them to sell some of their shares to permit a fan based majority shareholding? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Paddons Beard 2,431 Posted April 25, 2021 As mentioned in another thread - the money from the TV rights for Bundesliga are not as equitable at the Prem. So Bayern get three times the money the bottom teams get and hey presto Bayern have won the league 8 times in a row . Fan ownership doesn’t always keep things as competitive as you may think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wings of a Sparrow 1,415 Posted April 25, 2021 Given that the few thousand on this board can’t agree 100% about anything, I can’t in reality see how this would work. It’s a nice thought though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greavsy 2,415 Posted April 25, 2021 7 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said: Given that the few thousand on this board can’t agree 100% about anything, I can’t in reality see how this would work. It’s a nice thought though. Thats because they are wrong!! 😊 😊 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutty nigel 7,535 Posted April 25, 2021 Now it's a rum'un old kettle of fish but the only reason D&M own over half the shares is because other fans didn't want them. It wasn't some great 'power grab'. The share issues had to be underwritten. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deptford Yellow 258 Posted April 25, 2021 Portsmouth fans saved their club and owned it quite recently and then (rather astonishingly I thought) sold it to the man from Disney... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chicken 2,624 Posted April 25, 2021 2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said: Obvious question - how do the likes of Bayer Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, VfL Wolfsburg and RB Leipzig get around that rule? Doesn't take much to find out really. Leipzig don't get around the rule as such... they have bent the rule. Technically they play by the rules. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow and Green 334 Posted April 25, 2021 2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said: Obvious question - how do the likes of Bayer Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, VfL Wolfsburg and RB Leipzig get around that rule? There's a rule that states something about a club can be purchased outright if it has been financed by an individual for 25 years. I also think Leipzig, Leverkusen and Wolfsburg were created by companies.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chicken 2,624 Posted April 25, 2021 Ok, just to make it easier...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50%2B1_rule#:~:text=The clause states that%2C in,the influence of external investors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow and Green 334 Posted April 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Wings of a Sparrow said: Given that the few thousand on this board can’t agree 100% about anything, I can’t in reality see how this would work. It’s a nice thought though. The fans would pretty much only need to vote in the president. He/she would then run the club on behalf of the fans. As was the case with the ESL decision, if the fans are unhappy with how things are going then they cam vote the president out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,562 Posted April 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Crafty Canary said: Whilst Delia and MWJ are joint owners and presumably own say 25.5% of the shares each as they are married to each other they are, in effect, a single majority owning entity. For a genuine 50% + 1 share to be owned by the fans to occur surely this would require them to sell some of their shares to permit a fan based majority shareholding? It in effect comes to the same thing, but they do not each own 25.5 per cent of the shares. It is a joint holding of 51 per cent, or whatever it is. The percentage has changed over the years. And they would not have to sell shares to give fans 51 per cent. It could be achieved by the club making new shares available( as has been provided for in general terms). That aside, it seems to me there are two arguments for some kind of fan control or - to a lesser extent - influence. One is that fans in control would ensure community interests were paramount. The other is that, to put it crudely, rampant capitalism would be held in check. With the two not necessarily being mutually exclusive. Sadly, I doubt there is the political (by 'political' I mean both literally political political, Johnson being Johnson; and in terms of football politics) will to hand control of clubs to the fans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow and Green 334 Posted April 26, 2021 2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said: Sadly, I doubt there is the political (by 'political' I mean both literally political political, Johnson being Johnson; and in terms of football politics) will to hand control of clubs to the fans. I agree for 99% of clubs, as their owners are too egotistical to budge. I feel Norwich are one of the few clubs that could make it work. On the flip side of that, I would wonder what the club could do to safeguard that status, if DS/MWJ were to opt for the 50+1 model. Unlike in Germany, there would be no legislation to prevent a takeover in the future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,940 Posted April 26, 2021 10 hours ago, Yellow and Green said: There's a rule that states something about a club can be purchased outright if it has been financed by an individual for 25 years. I also think Leipzig, Leverkusen and Wolfsburg were created by companies.. They were. RB Leipzig is basically a Red Bull-fuelled offshoot, Leverkusen was essentially a vehicle for the Bayer pharmaceutical company, and Wolfsburg is similar for Volkswagen. Hoffenheim was more "plastic" and yet in its way a classic example of a local lad done good in that Dietmar Hopp, who played football for it as a village team, founded the software company SAP, and started bankrolling it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nuff Said 5,141 Posted April 26, 2021 7 hours ago, Yellow and Green said: I agree for 99% of clubs, as their owners are too egotistical to budge. I feel Norwich are one of the few clubs that could make it work. On the flip side of that, I would wonder what the club could do to safeguard that status, if DS/MWJ were to opt for the 50+1 model. Unlike in Germany, there would be no legislation to prevent a takeover in the future. Exactly. Notts County are an example local to me where they were fan owned for a while, a “stinking rich billionaire” came along offering untold riches and a path to the Premier League, and surprise, surprise it all went badly wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 7,606 Posted April 26, 2021 10 hours ago, PurpleCanary said: It in effect comes to the same thing, but they do not each own 25.5 per cent of the shares. It is a joint holding of 51 per cent, or whatever it is. The percentage has changed over the years. And they would not have to sell shares to give fans 51 per cent. It could be achieved by the club making new shares available( as has been provided for in general terms). That aside, it seems to me there are two arguments for some kind of fan control or - to a lesser extent - influence. One is that fans in control would ensure community interests were paramount. The other is that, to put it crudely, rampant capitalism would be held in check. With the two not necessarily being mutually exclusive. Sadly, I doubt there is the political (by 'political' I mean both literally political political, Johnson being Johnson; and in terms of football politics) will to hand control of clubs to the fans. Worth noting the 51% rule in Germany is not about share ownership.but about voting rights as far as I'm aware? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites