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Big clubs possible move could ‘end football as we know it'

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I don’t agree that these clubs haven’t done anything.  It appears an agreement was reached with J P Morgan - who negotiated that deal?  Who instigated the drawing up of the ESL agreements?

We are led to believe papers were served on UEFA to prevent sanctions being imposed, who was responsible for taking that action.  I think the 12 clubs should be pressured to provide all relevant information to determine the levels of involvement and the main instigators.

Those clubs should then be hit with the severest sanctions.  

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You are correct Fenway Frank. Those that moan the most about playing too many games, have agreed to play more games.

Another reason the Winners of the FA Cup are not denied qualification into Europe. Just in case one of us " Minnows " wins it

 

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15 hours ago, FenwayFrank said:

It seems the super league was a distraction while this happened 

 

The super league wasn't a distraction from this, it was in response to it.

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Do we have detail on how the games work for the new champs league structure? I’ve seen each side plays 10 opponents on a seeded bases - how does the seeding work? Presumably it’s just a one leg thing rather than playing ten sides home and away? 

If it’s against seeded opposition what exactly is the benefit of having one league rather than having the groups but just adding an extra side to each? (I understand the extra games = extra money.)

 

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Just now, Aggy said:

If it’s against seeded opposition what exactly is the benefit of having one league rather than having the groups but just adding an extra side to each? (I understand the extra games = extra money.)

That would give an odd number of teams, teams having weeks off and therefore logistical problems.

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All we have to remember is that the so called ESL clubs were generally with about 1 or 2 exceptions so indebted that they fear they may go bust if they they are not allowed to play in Europe ever year whatever their football prowess.

Perhaps they should put their own house in order first and live within their means rather than try and change the rules to the disadvantage of smaller, sometimes more footballing successful, better run clubs.

A few high profile Rangers style 'busts' is long overdue in this group and would be good for football.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, BigFish said:

That would give an odd number of teams, teams having weeks off and therefore logistical problems.

Could easily have been 6 groups of 6, top 2 go through and four third placed teams with highest points. Each side plays each home and away, still 10 games per side then.

I just don’t understand leagues where you only play a fraction of the sides in the division. It all becomes a bit complicated. You’re not competing against everyone in your league - you’re competing directly against 25 sides you won’t even get a chance to play.

Also becomes fairly unfair if you’re only playing one game against the sides you do play, as you might end up playing higher ranked sides away and lower at home etc.

Edited by Aggy

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10 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Could easily have been 6 groups of 6, top 2 go through and four third placed teams with highest points. Each side plays each home and away, still 10 games per side then.

I just don’t understand leagues where you only play a fraction of the sides in the division. It all becomes a bit complicated. You’re not competing against everyone in your league - you’re competing directly against 25 sides you won’t even get a chance to play.

Also becomes fairly unfair if you’re only playing one game against the sides you do play, as you might end up playing higher ranked sides away and lower at home etc.

Completely agree. This 'Swiss model' doesn't look very good at all, in my opinion.

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10 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Could easily have been 6 groups of 6, top 2 go through and four third placed teams with highest points. Each side plays each home and away, still 10 games per side then.

I just don’t understand leagues where you only play a fraction of the sides in the division. It all becomes a bit complicated. You’re not competing against everyone in your league - you’re competing directly against 25 sides you won’t even get a chance to play.

Also becomes fairly unfair if you’re only playing one game against the sides you do play, as you might end up playing higher ranked sides away and lower at home etc.

As to unfair, if you can't finish in the top 24 after 10 games it could be argued that you don't deserve to remain in the competition

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9 minutes ago, BigFish said:

As to unfair, if you can't finish in the top 24 after 10 games it could be argued that you don't deserve to remain in the competition

Is it 24? How do the knockouts work?

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48 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Is it 24? How do the knockouts work?

As I understand top 8 qualify for the round of 16, position 9 to 24 then have a two leg play-off to join them.

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The Independent now reporting Boris Johnson met Ed Woodward 4 days before the announcement but both claim the ESL wasn't discussed. Could leave Boris red faced if it turns out he knew beforehand.

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The argument is moving onto what governance changes should be made to the game in England, and David Conn has a piece in The Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/22/after-the-super-league-fiasco-five-reforms-that-could-save-the-game

One of his suggestions, a supporter-director with a golden-share veto on crucial heritage issues, I raised (I suspect it was the first time it had been thought of) 12 or 13 years ago, here and on the club's message-board.

The point is that while supporter-directors are in theory a good idea they can be used by clubs to give the impression of taking the views of fans seriously, while in the boardroom, with one man one vote and the SD having just one vote, simply rejecting every idea.

This was proved some years afterwards when the Swansea SD, with a large shareholding behind him, was apparently not even told of the impending US takeover.

So perhaps a golden-share veto is an idea whose time has finally come, due to extreme circumstances. It would be limited to a few crucial questions, such as ownership of the club, and the ground, but certainly whether or not to join a money-spinning closed shop of a league would be among them.

 

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11 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

The argument is moving onto what governance changes should be made to the game in England, and David Conn has a piece in The Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/22/after-the-super-league-fiasco-five-reforms-that-could-save-the-game

One of his suggestions, a supporter-director with a golden-share veto on crucial heritage issues, I raised (I suspect it was the first time it had been thought of) 12 or 13 years ago, here and on the club's message-board.

The point is that while supporter-directors are in theory a good idea they can be used by clubs to give the impression of taking the views of fans seriously, while in the boardroom, with one man one vote and the SD having just one vote, simply rejecting every idea.

This was proved some years afterwards when the Swansea SD, with a large shareholding behind him, was apparently not even told of the impending US takeover.

So perhaps a golden-share veto is an idea whose time has finally come, due to extreme circumstances. It would be limited to a few crucial questions, such as ownership of the club, and the ground, but certainly whether or not to join a money-spinning closed shop of a league would be among them.

 

Slight aside but fan ownership doesn’t necessarily achieve a more open and “fair” league set up 

The German model has been expounded throughout this ESL debacle. But it isnt a practical answer to a pyramid system. In theory the pyramid exists but in practice  Bayern enjoy a higher percentage of the bundesliga tv money than lower teams - around 3x what the bottom team get.

As a result Bayern have won the league 8 times in a row. 
 

ironically - a more “closed” league system such as NFL in the states , does result in a more varied set of winners . The draft is designed to act as a handicap system . 
 

In truth the fans that didn’t like the ESL turn a blind eye to similar traits that already exist in the EPL . Leicester was used as the “Pyramid” argument . In fact Leicester blasted through FFP in gaining promotion and are owned by Vichai who was reported worth 4.9 billion usd in 2019. 
 

The barrier to entry/success is still money , and fan ownership won’t change that . 

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45 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Slight aside but fan ownership doesn’t necessarily achieve a more open and “fair” league set up 

The German model has been expounded throughout this ESL debacle. But it isnt a practical answer to a pyramid system. In theory the pyramid exists but in practice  Bayern enjoy a higher percentage of the bundesliga tv money than lower teams - around 3x what the bottom team get.

As a result Bayern have won the league 8 times in a row. 
 

ironically - a more “closed” league system such as NFL in the states , does result in a more varied set of winners . The draft is designed to act as a handicap system . 
 

In truth the fans that didn’t like the ESL turn a blind eye to similar traits that already exist in the EPL . Leicester was used as the “Pyramid” argument . In fact Leicester blasted through FFP in gaining promotion and are owned by Vichai who was reported worth 4.9 billion usd in 2019. 
 

The barrier to entry/success is still money , and fan ownership won’t change that . 

Indeed. Conn is putting this forward as part of the 51 per cent idea, but I wasn't back then and am still not particularly, though I am not against it. I was envisaging  the club taken over someone rich rather than by the fans, but with this golden-share veto acting as a failsafe.

At the time an argument put to me was  that no-one who wanted to buy the club would agree to such a limiting condition, and it is or was a strong argument. But given recent events I could see it happening with Norwich City, especially if the takeover was not by an individual but by a consortium of like-minded people.

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54 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Slight aside but fan ownership doesn’t necessarily achieve a more open and “fair” league set up 

The German model has been expounded throughout this ESL debacle. But it isnt a practical answer to a pyramid system. In theory the pyramid exists but in practice  Bayern enjoy a higher percentage of the bundesliga tv money than lower teams - around 3x what the bottom team get.

As a result Bayern have won the league 8 times in a row. 
 

ironically - a more “closed” league system such as NFL in the states , does result in a more varied set of winners . The draft is designed to act as a handicap system . 
 

In truth the fans that didn’t like the ESL turn a blind eye to similar traits that already exist in the EPL . Leicester was used as the “Pyramid” argument . In fact Leicester blasted through FFP in gaining promotion and are owned by Vichai who was reported worth 4.9 billion usd in 2019. 
 

The barrier to entry/success is still money , and fan ownership won’t change that . 

I think people sometimes forget that certain elements of how football works financially are actually very unusual in sports- transfer fees for example are accepted as the norm but I don't know of another sport where the amount of money you're willing to give to another club governs who you can have in your team. 

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You’ve got to love DFs comments from today’s press conference: 

“I didn't want to comment on the European Super League too much. The reaction spoke for itself. The idea was crap.” 

Says it all, really!😂😂

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Interesting article in the Economist comparing the failure of the ESL to the US failure in Afghanistan.

 

in both cases they tried to impose a US model which didn’t fit, but didn’t include the “good” aspects of the US model, particularly the US style draft system and wage caps which keep US sports leagues competitive and mean there’s a steady turnover of which are the top teams at any given point over the years.

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It's incredible to see the number of owners who are 'Deeply Sorry' for signing up to this.

How ironic. I guess the only thing they are sorry for is getting caught with their hands in the till.

Had the fans not protested I'm sure those same owners would have been rubbing their hands at the thought of the cash rolling in.

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57 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Interesting article in the Economist comparing the failure of the ESL to the US failure in Afghanistan.

 

in both cases they tried to impose a US model which didn’t fit, but didn’t include the “good” aspects of the US model, particularly the US style draft system and wage caps which keep US sports leagues competitive and mean there’s a steady turnover of which are the top teams at any given point over the years.

Putting in a draft would also involve having some form of feeder league and a total reshaping of the structure of football. Of all the US model elements, this would be the one that I just can't see how you'd do in football.

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19 minutes ago, king canary said:

Putting in a draft would also involve having some form of feeder league and a total reshaping of the structure of football. Of all the US model elements, this would be the one that I just can't see how you'd do in football.

Yes I agree, which is a pity as it’s the main positive about the US sports system for me

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Perez is adamant that the ESL will happen, and that the 12 are contractually committed, although with some changes. Adding relegation/promotion would probably do it and expanding it to 18 teams. It will be with us within 5 years I suspect. Too much money available in Asia for it not to happen.

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There are a number of reports today that Johnson met with Woodward 3 days before the announcement and gave his support ?. 

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17 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Perez is adamant that the ESL will happen, and that the 12 are contractually committed, although with some changes. Adding relegation/promotion would probably do it and expanding it to 18 teams. It will be with us within 5 years I suspect. Too much money available in Asia for it not to happen.

Can't see it. Reports all suggest Perez has well and truly burned his bridges with most other teams.

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Ban all 6 clubs from the CL for 2 years. If anything, the clubs should embrace such a punishment seeing as they didn't want to be in the CL. 

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Punishing them too severely will push them back into an ESL - the Italians and Spanish clubs will be given no choice if they don't get CL money as they'll go bust. The French clubs will join as soon as they can too, once the fans get used to the idea - again, they have no choice with no decent TV deal. Celtic and Rangers also possibilities. It'll happen.

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