And so Sheffield United continue the worst run in the top flight since 1888

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,891]

9 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

100% disagree Disco. But I can only talk for me.

I keep nudging @BillySharpsCircus because he signed on here and made daft comments. Still don't understand why people do that, they must know these things are very temporary. Just like loads who wanted to be Sheff Utd, Watford, Huddersfield, Stoke, QPR and even the binners. Do you understand them?

I certainly hold no grudge over Sheffield Utd. In fact I feel a bit for Wilder and most of their fans including decent ones who posted on here.

Anyway, that's the reasons. Certainly not jealousy. I have never coveted other teams.

Happy New Year 🙃

Happy New Year to you as well Nigel! 😀 I hope 2021 is a great one for you and your family. 👍

OTBC

[Disco Dales Jockstrap 1,891]

18 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I imagine the main reasons is half the posters on here pinned them as the club we should have been last season. Their board was ambitious, ours was rubbish etc.

That and they're on course to beat all records of a Premier league low total, its quite a talking point.

Hello Hoggy.

I've no problem at all with it being discussed on here as you rightly say it's a talking point of definite interest.

It's the gloating I can't stand; as we all well know, it's not nice being down at the bottom. 

Anyway...Happy New Year!

OTBC

[hogesar 9,671]

6 minutes ago, Disco Dales Jockstrap said:

Hello Hoggy.

I've no problem at all with it being discussed on here as you rightly say it's a talking point of definite interest.

It's the gloating I can't stand; as we all well know, it's not nice being down at the bottom. 

Anyway...Happy New Year!

OTBC

And to you!

[king canary 7,606]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I imagine the main reasons is half the posters on here pinned them as the club we should have been last season. Their board was ambitious, ours was rubbish etc.

That and they're on course to beat all records of a Premier league low total, its quite a talking point.

Them being **** this season doesn't magically vindicate what we did last season though does it?

Just as Villa sitting in 7th doesn't mean we should have spent £100m the season before.

Both sides of this debate like to pick and choose.

Edited January 3, 2021 by king canary

[hogesar 9,671]

47 minutes ago, king canary said:

Them being **** this season doesn't magically vindicate what we did last season though does it?

Just as Villa sitting in 7th doesn't mean we should have spent £100m the season before.

Both sides of this debate like to pick and choose.

It basically shows it doesn't matter how much you spend, you can still go down or stay up. Therefore there's no sense in taking risks or taking on contracts which may hinder the club upon relegation.

Bascially like it or not the current situation that is football means relegation for a club our size is inevitable.

And the reason why Sheffield United are a pertinent example is that they were the exact 'middle ground' of spending everyone creamed themselves over last season yet we are now likely to swap places with them in 6 months time having spent nothing in comparison

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Well I'm going to keep on keeping on. I still mention the ones who wanted to be ipswich sometimes...

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

I've had the time to visit a Blades forum. They are resigned to relegation to a man, of course, and now debate whether they will go straight back up again.

City get lots of consideration:-

"Yes, but look at Norwich", I've heard/seen. Comparing us to Norwich is like chalk and cheese. Norwich pretty much planned to go straight back down. They were relegated whilst winning some plaudits for their attacking football (remember how much that annoyed us?) and kept hold of some great attacking players in Pukki, Cantwell and Buendia. As it stands, we do not have that. Norwich hadn't finished in the top half, the season before - as noted earlier, the psychological impact of a massive decline is huge. Finally, Norwich had been in the top flight, only a few years before their last stint. The infrastructure this brings is now only well too known - we aren't there yet."

"The reason the comparison is chalk and cheese is because Norwich are potentially 3/4/5 years in the future of what Wilder is looking to do.
Wilder has only just begun signing the younger players he needs, Norwich have been doing that for a few seasons, specifically since they were last relegated from this level."

 

I often feel that our club's achievements are recognised more by other supporters than by many of our own.

The same goes for some of our players.

Edited January 4, 2021 by BroadstairsR

[king canary 7,606]

12 hours ago, hogesar said:

It basically shows it doesn't matter how much you spend, you can still go down or stay up. Therefore there's no sense in taking risks or taking on contracts which may hinder the club upon relegation.

Bascially like it or not the current situation that is football means relegation for a club our size is inevitable.

And the reason why Sheffield United are a pertinent example is that they were the exact 'middle ground' of spending everyone creamed themselves over last season yet we are now likely to swap places with them in 6 months time having spent nothing in comparison

 

'There is no guarantee we'll stay up so better not try.'

Sheffield United have achieved something we haven't done in our last two trips to the Premier League- staying up. Just because they ****ed the second season doesn't invalidate the first.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

2 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

I've had the time to visit a Blades forum. They are resigned to relegation to a man, of course, and now debate whether they will go straight back up again.

City get lots of consideration:-

"Yes, but look at Norwich", I've heard/seen. Comparing us to Norwich is like chalk and cheese. Norwich pretty much planned to go straight back down. They were relegated whilst winning some plaudits for their attacking football (remember how much that annoyed us?) and kept hold of some great attacking players in Pukki, Cantwell and Buendia. As it stands, we do not have that. Norwich hadn't finished in the top half, the season before - as noted earlier, the psychological impact of a massive decline is huge. Finally, Norwich had been in the top flight, only a few years before their last stint. The infrastructure this brings is now only well too known - we aren't there yet."

"The reason the comparison is chalk and cheese is because Norwich are potentially 3/4/5 years in the future of what Wilder is looking to do.
Wilder has only just begun signing the younger players he needs, Norwich have been doing that for a few seasons, specifically since they were last relegated from this level."

 

I often feel that our club's achievements are recognised more by other supporters than by many of our own.

The same goes for some of our players.

Thanks for digging that out Broadstairs very interesting.

I'm not a big fan of Sheff Utd (various things like their fans attacking ours at Bramall Lane and the likes of their fans coming on here, suddenly thinking they were the mutts nutts) but I admired what Wilder had done with his team and we all like the local lad does good story don't we (*ahem* Todd *ahem*)?

It's also like that with Leeds,  in terms of admiring how they played, but their fans suddenly thought they were going to be Champions of Europe (AGAIN..........) within months. I know that is how football works, and now they've managed to get rid of some of their testosterone, they may reflect and engage in proper footy chat and debate.

I also know that we are highly unlikely to see BillySharpscircus on here as he has to go back to school, but hopefully he has learned a life lesson with this.

 

This has highlighted, as you say, how well we have done as a Club, considering the position we were in just a few years ago. Shame that this message cannot be laid in front of many critics we had (Slaven Bilic being one of the most recent ones for example) . Everyone is an expert. Everyone has got an opinion. Everyone has got an a*******.

We are obviously not an established Prem Club,  but we, as a business and football Club model, are certainly in the upper echelons of football hierarchy and at times, it would be nice to be recognised by a wider audience sometimes, so the above comments are well received. 

[Ian 1,129]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

'There is no guarantee we'll stay up so better not try.'

Sheffield United have achieved something we haven't done in our last two trips to the Premier League- staying up. Just because they ****ed the second season doesn't invalidate the first.

Of course, but it also doesn't necessarily equate to success unless there is a plan and club development to go alongside it. We've been there in the past and it has not really benefited us in anything other than the short term. 

Fingers crossed we are in a good position to go back up, and if that does happen, I feel our club will fundamentally be in a better position than it was the last time we went up.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

All Clubs are at, and start from, various levels, but Sheff Utd did very well, to get to the Prem and excel last season. They certainly have been spectacularly naive to not build on last season's success. That may be down to a number of factors (Wilder/Budget/Injuries/Recruitment?) but it is obvious that it is more than one factor that has got them into this current mess

[hogesar 9,671]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

'There is no guarantee we'll stay up so better not try.'

Sheffield United have achieved something we haven't done in our last two trips to the Premier League- staying up. Just because they ****ed the second season doesn't invalidate the first.

Although if we now switch places, who's in a better position next season? It's this short-termism of 'MUST STAY IN PREM SPEND MONEY GO GO GO' that Webber and co have purposefully avoided. 

[king canary 7,606]

1 minute ago, Ian said:

Of course, but it also doesn't necessarily equate to success unless there is a plan and club development to go alongside it. We've been there in the past and it has not really benefited us in anything other than the short term. 

Fingers crossed we are in a good position to go back up, and if that does happen, I feel our club will fundamentally be in a better position than it was the last time we went up.

Success is subjective I guess.

Some people see financial security and continued existence of the club as the main measure.

Some people are content with the yo-yoing and don't mind if we struggle to compete at the next level as long as we bounce back in the Championship.

Some seem to think football hasn't changed since the 70's and that we should be able to challenge the top 6.

For me, personally, I'm not much interested in a set up where we get promoted and then do what we did last season and go down without a fight. I'm not sure I see how that changes in the near future.

[hogesar 9,671]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

Success is subjective I guess.

Some people see financial security and continued existence of the club as the main measure.

Some people are content with the yo-yoing and don't mind if we struggle to compete at the next level as long as we bounce back in the Championship.

Some seem to think football hasn't changed since the 70's and that we should be able to challenge the top 6.

For me, personally, I'm not much interested in a set up where we get promoted and then do what we did last season and go down without a fight. I'm not sure I see how that changes in the near future.

How do we change it? It's our naturaly position as a football club even if you ignore wealth. West Brom's owners are worth £2.8 billion, they have the same problems we do.

[king canary 7,606]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

How do we change it? It's our naturaly position as a football club even if you ignore wealth. West Brom's owners are worth £2.8 billion, they have the same problems we do.

You're right it might not be changeable. Which, to be honest, shows to me just how broken modern football is an explains why I just don't care as much as I did a few years ago.

 

[Ian 1,129]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

For me, personally, I'm not much interested in a set up where we get promoted and then do what we did last season and go down without a fight. I'm not sure I see how that changes in the near future.

Last season was certainly dismal, after Christmas, but given injures and mitigating circumstances I can sort of understand why it was so poor.

Unfortunately, as Norfolk born and bred, I'm pretty much going to be interested in whatever the club do regardless of whether it's competing as an established club in the top flight. What I would say is that the club has been in a much, much poorer position even in recent years, and I do feel that focusing too much on last season probably doesn't give enough credit to the development and improvements that have been made throughout the club as a whole.

[king canary 7,606]

4 minutes ago, Ian said:

Last season was certainly dismal, after Christmas, but given injures and mitigating circumstances I can sort of understand why it was so poor.

Unfortunately, as Norfolk born and bred, I'm pretty much going to be interested in whatever the club do regardless of whether it's competing as an established club in the top flight. What I would say is that the club has been in a much, much poorer position even in recent years, and I do feel that focusing too much on last season probably doesn't give enough credit to the development and improvements that have been made throughout the club as a whole.

I get that, I really do but I watch football for what happens on the pitch. So I can't get excited about selling a player like Godfrey for £25m when it means we lose a very good player for instance, yet our set up now prioritizes that. 

[Bill 1,788]

What happens on the pitch is pretty much determined by what happens off the pitch - moneywise.

It is absurd to think you can separate the two.

That without the money from the sale of Maddison we would be here - or that having more money than York we were able to not only sign Godfrey, but have the coaches and infrastructure to develop him.

Nor is it likely that we would have the scouting network to have discovered Buendia, Onel, and Sorensen\.

The hand to mouth existence you want for our club would have us as Huddersfield, Blackpool, Boro and the binners. On hit wonders who had their moment in the sun at the expense of long term stability and development

[Ian 1,129]

15 minutes ago, king canary said:

I get that, I really do but I watch football for what happens on the pitch. So I can't get excited about selling a player like Godfrey for £25m when it means we lose a very good player for instance, yet our set up now prioritizes that. 

Pretty much every club experiences losing their best players, even some of the very top level clubs. I am not sure our model prioritises this so much, other than accepts it as a natural consequence of modern football and ensures we maximise value to the club, and not in a purely financial sense.

For instance, it is very exciting to me that we seem to be bringing through incredibly talented youth players from all over the globe (for example, Soto); historically this is not something the club has done, and certainly not to the depth currently. Of course, losing the Godfrey's et al is disappointing, but it is also a sign that we are developing players to a level where they are considered good enough for established top flight and international teams.

I totally agree that if this is how it is going to be "forever", then it is going to be quite depressing (although it's all relative right, imagine being an Ipswich fan), but I consider it part of the club's development and (perhaps naively) expect us to push on over the coming seasons.

[king canary 7,606]

4 minutes ago, Ian said:

Pretty much every club experiences losing their best players, even some of the very top level clubs. I am not sure our model prioritises this so much, other than accepts it as a natural consequence of modern football and ensures we maximise value to the club, and not in a purely financial sense.

For instance, it is very exciting to me that we seem to be bringing through incredibly talented youth players from all over the globe (for example, Soto); historically this is not something the club has done, and certainly not to the depth currently. Of course, losing the Godfrey's et al is disappointing, but it is also a sign that we are developing players to a level where they are considered good enough for established top flight and international teams.

I totally agree that if this is how it is going to be "forever", then it is going to be quite depressing (although it's all relative right, imagine being an Ipswich fan), but I consider it part of the club's development and (perhaps naively) expect us to push on over the coming seasons.

I admire your optimism and wish I shared it to be honest.

I just find I struggle to get excited about players like Soto because if he's great we'll get him for one, maybe two seasons. I know that's 'just football' but it depresses the hell out of me. I am just feeling that us selling players has stopped being a side effect of where we are and almost become our purpose. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by king canary

[Ian 1,129]

Just now, king canary said:

I admire your optimism and wish I shared it to be honest.

I just find I struggle to get excited about players like Soto because if he's great we'll get him for one, maybe two seasons. I know that's 'just football' but it depresses the hell out of me.

Not sure it has ever been any different - particularly for a club like Norwich? Very rare we have a "testimonial" player.

What depresses me at the moment is the lack of crowds and being able to attend the game; I think this really emphasises the sanitary nature of Sky Sports and international commentary, and games do seem a little bit like a conveyor belt without the "big game" feeling. That said, if we are in a position to be back in the top flight when crowds can return fully I suspect the elation and excitement of being in the crowd will be incredible.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

1 minute ago, Ian said:

Not sure it has ever been any different - particularly for a club like Norwich? Very rare we have a "testimonial" player.

What depresses me at the moment is the lack of crowds and being able to attend the game; I think this really emphasises the sanitary nature of Sky Sports and international commentary, and games do seem a little bit like a conveyor belt without the "big game" feeling. That said, if we are in a position to be back in the top flight when crowds can return fully I suspect the elation and excitement of being in the crowd will be incredible.

Absolutely, but who does these days? I think Wes and Russ Martin were our last ones but they went through the Leagues with us and were at a different stage of their careers, as opposed to Max, Ben, Jamal and Todd for example. It hadn't evened crossed my mind that Todd or Max would still be here when they're 30, but I can dream for a minute before getting my wife to smack my face with a wet fish

Which top flight Club has had a testimonial player recently? Mark Noble perhaps? Anyone one else people can think of?

[king canary 7,606]

1 minute ago, Ian said:

Not sure it has ever been any different - particularly for a club like Norwich? Very rare we have a "testimonial" player.

What depresses me at the moment is the lack of crowds and being able to attend the game; I think this really emphasises the sanitary nature of Sky Sports and international commentary, and games do seem a little bit like a conveyor belt without the "big game" feeling. That said, if we are in a position to be back in the top flight when crowds can return fully I suspect the elation and excitement of being in the crowd will be incredible.

It happened sure but it is now our whole strategy really- lets be honest our hope with Soto isn't 'we hope he stays for a decade and becomes a Norwich legend' its 'we hope he scores 20+ goals so we can sell him for £20m+ in two years time.'

The relationship between fans and players becomes increasingly transactional as there is no point getting attached, we'll just be selling them in 18 months. The nature of football is that a long term, slow build sort of way of working is incredibly difficult because it moves to slowly for good, ambitious players.

I agree the lack of crowds doesn't help. I also think the fact I had to give up my season ticket a few years ago makes it more difficult- I can't rationalise the depressing longer term picture that is modern football by saying 'I enjoy the experience of going to games every couple of weeks.' 

This isn't a dig at the club or anyone really. I'm just finding myself less and less invested in football than I have been at any point in my life due to stuff like this. All a bit naval gazing, I know. 

What I'd really love to see us do (once crowds are back ideally) is, after poromotion, have a really good go at trying to win the FA Cup or the League Cup. We know we can't compete in the League so lets try and make an incredible moment/memory for the fans.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

We had a real good go at winning the fa cup last season. Who knows what may have happened if we'd played man u in front of 27.000 at the time it should have been played.

[sonyc 5,517]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

What I'd really love to see us do (once crowds are back ideally) is, after poromotion, have a really good go at trying to win the FA Cup or the League Cup. We know we can't compete in the League so lets try and make an incredible moment/memory for the fans

One thing about Farke is that he has always  gone for wins in the cup....both in terms of how important t the cup is to him, as well as his team set ups. He may well ensure we have quite an attacking team at the weekend. I can see us going quite far this year (and wouldn't rule out the 6th round or quarter finals). Whether we want the distraction though is another thing and yet if we do have our full arsenal back (Idah, Hernandez) then we may have some strength in depth. It gives the players coming in a chance to press for first team places too.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

It happened sure but it is now our whole strategy really- lets be honest our hope with Soto isn't 'we hope he stays for a decade and becomes a Norwich legend' its 'we hope he scores 20+ goals so we can sell him for £20m+ in two years time.'

The relationship between fans and players becomes increasingly transactional as there is no point getting attached, we'll just be selling them in 18 months. The nature of football is that a long term, slow build sort of way of working is incredibly difficult because it moves to slowly for good, ambitious players.

I think this is a bit of a depressed / defeatist sounding viewpoint King. You don't spend your holidays miserable that you have to come back home and go back to work do you?! 

When we sign a prospect such as Soto, if they can improve our squad and also develop over a few seasons while the team itself improves to a top champs team / lower-end prem team then great! And if the player overachieves to the point he outgrows the club's own development, then so what if we let him move on? That's just football and won't stop me enjoying the ride in between!

Is there anything under our current self-funding model which actually suggests player retention is any poorer than the past decades (that is for players we don't want to sell)?

I don't think so. In fact we've got plenty of examples on the contrary to this still in our current squad. Aarons and Buendia are now in their third seasons with us - if we are promoted then every reason to believe we will get more. These two are probably the most exceptional prospects we've managed to retain despite dropped out of the prem! Not bad for a 'selling' club...

I’m not sure anything has changed other than maybe your perception that we must sell our best players? But I don't think we are seeing this, at all. Whether this changes in the future we are yet to see, but it is sort of dependent on whether or not we can get promoted in the next season or two (which of course is a concern in itself but one shared equally with other relegated clubs). 

[BobLoz3 492]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Success is subjective I guess.

Some people see financial security and continued existence of the club as the main measure.

Some people are content with the yo-yoing and don't mind if we struggle to compete at the next level as long as we bounce back in the Championship.

Some seem to think football hasn't changed since the 70's and that we should be able to challenge the top 6.

For me, personally, I'm not much interested in a set up where we get promoted and then do what we did last season and go down without a fight. I'm not sure I see how that changes in the near future.

Trying to change that by not spending ridiculous amounts on players, finding raw diamonds and developing our own. These players improve game on game. It should also be noted that we already spent more on players this season, in terms of signings, than we did for the Prem season. 

I've said it before and I still believe that we will be better prepared if we go up to the Prem again. Farke will have more experience, the coaches will, some of the players and also Webber will know what type of signings we need to make. And I firmly believe we'll make some good ones. 

[king canary 7,606]

53 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I think this is a bit of a depressed / defeatist sounding viewpoint King. You don't spend your holidays miserable that you have to come back home and go back to work do you?! 

When we sign a prospect such as Soto, if they can improve our squad and also develop over a few seasons while the team itself improves to a top champs team / lower-end prem team then great! And if the player overachieves to the point he outgrows the club's own development, then so what if we let him move on? That's just football and won't stop me enjoying the ride in between!

Is there anything under our current self-funding model which actually suggests player retention is any poorer than the past decades (that is for players we don't want to sell)?

I don't think so. In fact we've got plenty of examples on the contrary to this still in our current squad. Aarons and Buendia are now in their third seasons with us - if we are promoted then every reason to believe we will get more. These two are probably the most exceptional prospects we've managed to retain despite dropped out of the prem! Not bad for a 'selling' club...

I’m not sure anything has changed other than maybe your perception that we must sell our best players? But I don't think we are seeing this, at all. Whether this changes in the future we are yet to see, but it is sort of dependent on whether or not we can get promoted in the next season or two (which of course is a concern in itself but one shared equally with other relegated clubs). 

You're probably right to be fair. I find the state of modern football depressing when you think about the bigger picture and I just want to bring you all down with me 😉

I think what changed it for me was last season- we went up with some of the most talented players I've seen in a Norwich shirt and then, because of various limitations, refused to take any risks to support those players. I'm also fairly certain more of them would have left this summer if it wasn't for covid killing the market outside of the biggest teams. 

I just don't really see next season being that different- covid, combined with our financial model means we just cannot risk spending much and if football has shown us anything, it is that not spending in the Premier League is basically a guarantee of relegation. I could be wrong, Farke, Webber and co could pull off a mini miracle with a similar budget to last season but I'm skeptical to say the least.

[Midlands Yellow 3,984]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

I get that, I really do but I watch football for what happens on the pitch. So I can't get excited about selling a player like Godfrey for £25m when it means we lose a very good player for instance, yet our set up now prioritizes that. 

We are a very tight club when it comes to spending even after mass sales. Time to stop mentioning Naismith and Ricky to justify never pushing the boat out again. 

[Badger 2,405]

4 hours ago, king canary said:

'There is no guarantee we'll stay up so better not try.'

Sheffield United have achieved something we haven't done in our last two trips to the Premier League- staying up. Just because they ****ed the second season doesn't invalidate the first.

The important issue is the condition that they are in if/ when they are relegated. Hopefully for their fans they are going to be fiscally stable, rather than some sort of Faustian pact whereby they sell their future for a couple of years in the EPL.