And so Sheffield United continue the worst run in the top flight since 1888

[Crabbycanary3 994]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I'm not so sure they will have loads of high earning players to be honest. I believe they had one of the lowest wage bills in the League last season and while it will have gone up I doubt they are paying much more than most lower end Premier League teams. They'll likely also have wage reductions written in to their contracts (as do most teams at that sort of level).

Sure there are going to be big questions to ask about scouting and how they've fallen off so far so suddenly. I think they are likely pretty well run though and will be able to bounce back. As much as some don't want to admit it, they achieved something we haven't in nearly a decade- staying up in the top flight after promotion. That is going to be the big challenge for us in this model.

Yep, I am sure what you say here may be correct. If we had achieved what Sheff Utd did last season I would have been over the moon (and I doffed my hat to them) but if we (as they have) made an even worse dogs dinner of our season (as it looks odds on to), after that, then their achievement of staying 2 years in the Prem fades away pretty quickly and lends itself to being not a particularly well run Club, with such a chasm between the 2 seasons. Something is wrong somewhere. Is it the finances, is it the players, is it the recruitment or is it the Manager/Coaching to name but 4? I don't know.

I totally agree that if we go up, we have a big challenge on our hands

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

10 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Villa only stayed up because they were the beneficiaries of one of the most outrageous pieces of luck in the history of football - namely the failure of goal line technology to give a goal against them when the ball was clearly over the line. 

I agree. It wasn't just goal line technology, VAR didn't intervene either.

But we can all point to individual incidents and say that was the defining moment. I think we had one or two that season early on. And Covid perhaps disrupted us more than any other team.

But they did stay up and are now blossoming.

To talk about well run clubs is opinion only and not for us to judge. Some might say, including Webber, that we weren't but are now.

[Crabbycanary3 994]

So, circa £90M to not stay up a 2nd season or north of £130M to stay up a second season. Which way should we play it (if we go up of course 🙂 ) and if we choose one of those models, how close to those figures should we get near to?

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

No but half the names mentioned helped them stay up in the first season, the extra TV money likely covered their transfer fees and then some...

 

1) that's not the point you were making

2) that's not remotely true. Berge was signed with safety all but guaranteed. Burke, Ramsdale and Brewster in the summer. That's £59m if the figures earlier in the thread are accurate

I think Berge and Brewster were more than quoted and there's another £10m of others in the summer so you're looking at nearer £80m since survival.

Edited January 17, 2021 by kirku

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

I agree. It wasn't just goal line technology, VAR didn't intervene either.

But we can all point to individual incidents and say that was the defining moment. I think we had one or two that season early on. And Covid perhaps disrupted us more than any other team.

But they did stay up and are now blossoming.

To talk about well run clubs is opinion only and not for us to judge. Some might say, including Webber, that we weren't but are now.

If that was true and I was still in a job then I would be out of one...🤓

[king canary 7,562]

11 minutes ago, kirku said:

1) that's not the point you were making

2) that's not remotely true. Berge was signed with safety all but guaranteed. Burke, Ramsdale and Brewster in the summer. That's £59m if the figures earlier in the thread are accurate

I think Berge and Brewster were more than quoted and there's another £10m of others in the summer so you're looking at nearer £80m since survival.

I mean, if you go back to my first post this evening it was exactly the point I was making...

[Thirsty Lizard 3,154]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

I mean, if you go back to my first post this evening it was exactly the point I was making...

So they comfortably survived last season - went out and spent £80 million and are now in danger of being the worst team in Premier League history. Now a logical person would have to conclude that going out and spending loads of money has done them terrible harm. 

[king canary 7,562]

1 minute ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

So they comfortably survived last season - went out and spent £80 million and are now in danger of being the worst team in Premier League history. Now a logical person would have to conclude that going out and spending loads of money has done them terrible harm. 

Yeah, spending it badly has done that, for sure.

But you can also find examples of teams where spending large sums well has made them better.

What I've never seen any evidence for is how spending a historically low amount on your squad helps you stay up.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,154]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah, spending it badly has done that, for sure.

But you can also find examples of teams where spending large sums well has made them better.

What I've never seen any evidence for is how spending a historically low amount on your squad helps you stay up.

There are also innumerable examples of where spending money that you don't have has crippled teams. We had hardly any money to spend when we were promoted in 2018/19 so we very wisely didn't spend what we didn't have. Ironically, the main reason we hardly had any money to spend was because last time we were in the Premier League we recklessly gambled on transfer fees and wages in an attempt to stay up. 

[Crabbycanary3 994]

4 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

There are also innumerable examples of where spending money that you don't have has crippled teams. We had hardly any money to spend when we were promoted in 2018/19 so we very wisely didn't spend what we didn't have. Ironically, the main reason we hardly had any money to spend was because last time we were in the Premier League we recklessly gambled on transfer fees and wages in an attempt to stay up. 

Yes, we were (and still are) a victim of our financial standing from the last few years. Webber/Farke and co are turning that round. Perhaps this debate needs re visiting in 3-5 years, and see where we are and how successful Sheff Utd and Villa are for example. I appreciate that the three of us haven't started from the same point financially (but we did all go up together) but in 3-5 years all 3 Clubs would have had the chance to re align their Club to be a forward thinking and viable model

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

32 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

If that was true and I was still in a job then I would be out of one...🤓

Explain that one

[Alex Moss 2,165]

29 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah, spending it badly has done that, for sure.

But you can also find examples of teams where spending large sums well has made them better.

What I've never seen any evidence for is how spending a historically low amount on your squad helps you stay up.

We had a win/win situation, though not for those that thought staying up after the first promotion was the be all and end all.

We took a complete risk free gamble on the first promotion. We rightfully weren’t prepared to put the club at risk. We signed a bunch of players on loan from around Europe who we *COULD* have bought with all those lovely pennies, but luckily we didn’t. I’ve said it to you before, but I don’t recall you complaining about those signings at the time - only with the benefit of hindsight. But that’s not the point.

We essentially mugged the Premier League of their money for a season and came back down knowing we had a great chance to come back up again this season in a far better financial position. Sold 2 of our youth assets for a very good wedge on top of that. Now we’re looking good to go up again. No we won’t spend the figures Villa and Sheff Utd have. Covid has played it’s part there. But I bet we spend more than we did last time around.

This is a very savvy way to essentially maximise our chances virtually risk free. A fantastic creative model brought in by Webber etc to counteract not having a super rich backer with a bottomless pit. 

Quite obvious what Webber and Farke etc are doing, and it’s very clear they knew exactly what they were doing upon promotion the last Championship season. If we stayed up, massive bonus - we went down, then we take 1 step back to go 2 steps forward. They’re executing the self sufficient model brilliantly, and that’s how it’s going to be so best get used to it.
 

 

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I mean, if you go back to my first post this evening it was exactly the point I was making...

I was referring to the post I quoted and you responded to. Not sure about anything else.

Transfermarkt have Sheff U spending £119m since promotion, with approximately £80m since survival. Absolutely insane figures for the quality of the squad they've assembled.

I'm glad we did it the way we did. Gambling on the short term to potentially jeopardise the long term isn't worth the risk.

What's the ceiling? Being a soul destroying lower Prem team for a few years until being inevitably relegated in the not too distant future?

 

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

27 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

We had a win/win situation, though not for those that thought staying up after the first promotion was the be all and end all.

We took a complete risk free gamble on the first promotion. We rightfully weren’t prepared to put the club at risk. We signed a bunch of players on loan from around Europe who we *COULD* have bought with all those lovely pennies, but luckily we didn’t. I’ve said it to you before, but I don’t recall you complaining about those signings at the time - only with the benefit of hindsight. But that’s not the point.

We essentially mugged the Premier League of their money for a season and came back down knowing we had a great chance to come back up again this season in a far better financial position. Sold 2 of our youth assets for a very good wedge on top of that. Now we’re looking good to go up again. No we won’t spend the figures Villa and Sheff Utd have. Covid has played it’s part there. But I bet we spend more than we did last time around.

This is a very savvy way to essentially maximise our chances virtually risk free. A fantastic creative model brought in by Webber etc to counteract not having a super rich backer with a bottomless pit. 

Quite obvious what Webber and Farke etc are doing, and it’s very clear they knew exactly what they were doing upon promotion the last Championship season. If we stayed up, massive bonus - we went down, then we take 1 step back to go 2 steps forward. They’re executing the self sufficient model brilliantly, and that’s how it’s going to be so best get used to it.
 

 

So to summarise, what you're saying is there us no such thing as a 'calculated risk'?  It is a contradiction in terms...🤓

[Alex Moss 2,165]

6 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

So to summarise, what you're saying is there us no such thing as a 'calculated risk'?  It is a contradiction in terms...🤓

Ha ha, put it this way, Purple - I do not deem 90 million pounds to be a calculated risk, no! But so so easy when it’s someone else’s cash!

We’re building the club in the right way - and I guarantee you that you’ll see more and more clubs look at our model in the coming months and years, and run with it. We are pioneers 👍

[Mr.Carrow 376]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Yeah, spending it badly has done that, for sure.

But you can also find examples of teams where spending large sums well has made them better.

What I've never seen any evidence for is how spending a historically low amount on your squad helps you stay up.

Errrr, as I recall we didn't spend much staying up under Lambert and Hughton. In fact it was spending (at the time) a considerable amount of money under Hughton that started the rot.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

1 minute ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Errrr, as I recall we didn't spend much staying up under Lambert and Hughton. In fact it was spending (at the time) a considerable amount of money under Hughton that started the rot.

Out of likes Mr C, but indeed.

Ironically, one of our worst periods in recent history was after loosening the purse strings. Sure, it could have gone right - but the point is, it didn’t. It really couldn’t have gone more wrong in fact. And we paid for that price for some time to come afterwards big time - in fact we are only just coming out of it now. So a bit too fresh in this clubs memory for those that spend their days behind the Carrow Rd walls. You can certainly understand the cautiousness. But we’ll done Ed Balls for instigating the new approach for the club. He set the ball rolling for Farke and Webber, and should be commended.

Anyway, this obsession to just throw money at everything to solve problems is just silly. This is not monopoly, this is real. The bottom line is 100% this - it’s not about how *much* you spend, because that is irrelevant - it’s about how *clever* you are with the money you’ve got, whether that’s £1mill or £100mil.

Emi Buendía - 1.35million€ initially or something crazy like that. Pepe - 72million€. So let’s concentrate on clever recruitment first and foremost, because that’s where it’s at.

But in case it’s going under the radar, it should be pointed out that Webber is already preparing for the next phase by showing he’s now prepared to gamble that little bit more, but still within our current means. And it’s a step up, and on players that should be able to do the business in the Premier League. Already there’s Gibson and the Greek lad -  there’s 15 odd million or so right there, all being well. But don’t moan about this ambition if those players don’t work out - the club is trying its best.

So, to summarise, we are clearly preparing to show more financial ambition this time around should we be promoted. But I think some of us folk on here listened very carefully to Webber’s and Farke’s visions the first time around, so how this is all playing out right now is no real surprise to be honest.

 

[BigManInTheBarclay 75]

After getting grief from United supporters last season it's nice to see they are doing well!

[king canary 7,562]

7 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

So to summarise, what you're saying is there us no such thing as a 'calculated risk'?  It is a contradiction in terms...🤓

Its weird how someone who comes across as quite smart most of the time keeps making a point that is so dumb.

There is nothing contradictory about a calculated risk. My mortgage is a calculated risk. Getting in a car is even a calculated risk. So signing football players is definitely a calculated risk.

[king canary 7,562]

7 hours ago, Alex Moss said:

We had a win/win situation, though not for those that thought staying up after the first promotion was the be all and end all.

We took a complete risk free gamble on the first promotion. We rightfully weren’t prepared to put the club at risk. We signed a bunch of players on loan from around Europe who we *COULD* have bought with all those lovely pennies, but luckily we didn’t. I’ve said it to you before, but I don’t recall you complaining about those signings at the time - only with the benefit of hindsight. But that’s not the point.

We essentially mugged the Premier League of their money for a season and came back down knowing we had a great chance to come back up again this season in a far better financial position. Sold 2 of our youth assets for a very good wedge on top of that. Now we’re looking good to go up again. No we won’t spend the figures Villa and Sheff Utd have. Covid has played it’s part there. But I bet we spend more than we did last time around.

This is a very savvy way to essentially maximise our chances virtually risk free. A fantastic creative model brought in by Webber etc to counteract not having a super rich backer with a bottomless pit. 

Quite obvious what Webber and Farke etc are doing, and it’s very clear they knew exactly what they were doing upon promotion the last Championship season. If we stayed up, massive bonus - we went down, then we take 1 step back to go 2 steps forward. They’re executing the self sufficient model brilliantly, and that’s how it’s going to be so best get used to it.
 

 

Thats all great if you ignore the whole point of Norwich City...the actual football.

So from a financial perspective, yeah no risk, mugged the Premier league, how clever etc etc.

On the pitch this led to our lowest ever top flight points total, the 6th lowest Premier League points total ever, the longest losing streak in club history, not leaving the relegation zone from game 8 onwards, being bottom from game 19 until the end of the season and scoring least goals (for us) in a season since the Premier League began.

So if you support a set of balance sheets it was a great season. If you actually wanted to watch a team try and compete in the Premier League it was awful. And again, I admire your optimistic viewpoint but I cant get hugely excited about it being a success because we might get a chance to repeat the experience again next season.

[Capt. Pants 4,194]

A few of us seem to be counting chickens. I would hold back on any smugness until we get promotion over the line.

Failure to get promoted in our current position with an essentially Premier League squad will raise an interesting debate about our model.

[kirku 1,332]

22 minutes ago, king canary said:

Thats all great if you ignore the whole point of Norwich City...the actual football.

So from a financial perspective, yeah no risk, mugged the Premier league, how clever etc etc.

On the pitch this led to our lowest ever top flight points total, the 6th lowest Premier League points total ever, the longest losing streak in club history, not leaving the relegation zone from game 8 onwards, being bottom from game 19 until the end of the season and scoring least goals (for us) in a season since the Premier League began.

So if you support a set of balance sheets it was a great season. If you actually wanted to watch a team try and compete in the Premier League it was awful. And again, I admire your optimistic viewpoint but I cant get hugely excited about it being a success because we might get a chance to repeat the experience again next season.

The point being made is that many other clubs spent vast sums of money, money that could potentially jeopardise the future of our club, whilst still having the same outcome. Fulham and Sheff U being the obvious examples.

Last season wasn't great by any stretch, but we actually started off pretty well until an unmanageable injury crisis scuppered things. We've also got to admit that the recruitment was poor.

Nobody is expecting us not to sign anyone if we get promoted again, but to live within our means and try something different. The change in approach since Webber came in has been stark. Starkly successful.

[kirku 1,332]

7 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

A few of us seem to be counting chickens. I would hold back on any smugness until we get promotion over the line.

Failure to get promoted in our current position with an essentially Premier League squad will raise an interesting debate about our model.

You've got some people saying that we tried to compete in the Premiership with a Championship squad, and others saying we have a Premiership squad in the Championship...

[king canary 7,562]

23 minutes ago, kirku said:

The point being made is that many other clubs spent vast sums of money, money that could potentially jeopardise the future of our club, whilst still having the same outcome. Fulham and Sheff U being the obvious examples.

Last season wasn't great by any stretch, but we actually started off pretty well until an unmanageable injury crisis scuppered things. We've also got to admit that the recruitment was poor.

Nobody is expecting us not to sign anyone if we get promoted again, but to live within our means and try something different. The change in approach since Webber came in has been stark. Starkly successful.

Which inevitably brings us back to the elephant in the room- how can other clubs spend money to make themselves competitive without apparently jeopardizing their future?

[hogesar 9,610]

14 minutes ago, king canary said:

Which inevitably brings us back to the elephant in the room- how can other clubs spend money to make themselves competitive without apparently jeopardizing their future?

For the most part, by either getting lucky or praying to god the current owner (whoever that might be) decides to stick around despite (likely) having no real affiliation to the club.

[hogesar 9,610]

48 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

A few of us seem to be counting chickens. I would hold back on any smugness until we get promotion over the line.

Failure to get promoted in our current position with an essentially Premier League squad will raise an interesting debate about our model.

Well, it wouldn't really raise any sort of debate about our 'model' but likely more about the coaching and management, if what you say about us essentially having a Premier League squad is correct.

[PurpleCanary 5,553]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Its weird how someone who comes across as quite smart most of the time keeps making a point that is so dumb.

There is nothing contradictory about a calculated risk. My mortgage is a calculated risk. Getting in a car is even a calculated risk. So signing football players is definitely a calculated risk.

It was a joke.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

31 minutes ago, king canary said:

Thats all great if you ignore the whole point of Norwich City...the actual football.

So from a financial perspective, yeah no risk, mugged the Premier league, how clever etc etc.

On the pitch this led to our lowest ever top flight points total, the 6th lowest Premier League points total ever, the longest losing streak in club history, not leaving the relegation zone from game 8 onwards, being bottom from game 19 until the end of the season and scoring least goals (for us) in a season since the Premier League began.

So if you support a set of balance sheets it was a great season. If you actually wanted to watch a team try and compete in the Premier League it was awful. And again, I admire your optimistic viewpoint but I cant get hugely excited about it being a success because we might get a chance to repeat the experience again next season.

Good god. If you actually read my post that you replied to then you will understand exactly why that was NEVER EVER going to happen! You can’t suggest someone’s a bit dumb, and then respond by showing absolutely zero comprehension of what’s been explained to you (not for the first time either).

You might not evidently agree with the self sufficient model, and that is of course fine, but in that post I’ve really really tried to explain to you as best as I can WHY we didn’t throw money at staying up the first time. And why NOT staying up first time around wasn’t a disaster in the longer term plans of the club. As I say, 1 step back to make 2 steps forward.

Its not about the instant gratification that you so desire, as Webber has made it *very* clear time and again. ‘Root before the fruit’ I believe was his very easy to understand analogy. Think about what that means, and therefore the sheer *importance* of building the foundation of the club. And how that increases our chances for success in the future. Very smart.

Very disappointed you couldn’t counteract those points other than just by retorting with the tired, and not particularly well argued or thought out, ‘yeah, but if we throw a load of money at it and give it a shot’. That’s pretty lame to be honest, KC.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

33 minutes ago, king canary said:

Which inevitably brings us back to the elephant in the room- how can other clubs spend money to make themselves competitive without apparently jeopardizing their future?

I dunno, it’s almost like their owners are extremely rich, often billionaires or something. Weird isn’t it?

[king canary 7,562]

3 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Good god. If you actually read my post that you replied to then you will understand exactly why that was NEVER EVER going to happen! You can’t suggest someone’s a bit dumb, and then respond by showing absolutely zero comprehension of what’s been explained to you (not for the first time either).

You might not evidently agree with the self sufficient model, and that is of course fine, but in that post I’ve really really tried to explain to you as best as I can WHY we didn’t throw money at staying up the first time. And why NOT staying up first time around wasn’t a disaster in the longer term plans of the club. As I say, 1 step back to make 2 steps forward.

Its not about the instant gratification that you so desire, as Webber has made it *very* clear time and again. ‘Root before the fruit’ I believe was his very easy to understand analogy. Think about what that means, and therefore the sheer *importance* of building the foundation of the club. And how that increases our chances for success in the future. Very smart.

Very disappointed you couldn’t counteract those points other than just by retorting with the tired, and not particularly well argued or thought out, ‘yeah, but if we throw a load of money at it and give it a shot’. That’s pretty lame to be honest, KC.

Sorry you found my response so disappointing Alex.

I'm totally aware of why we can't throw money at the problem. We don't have owners with the money or the will to invest to help make us competitive. 

I understand that last season wasn't a disaster in the hypothetical long term plan of the club. I'm just of the opinion that while the plan is nice in principle, it isn't going to work in practice. The 'root' is fine but the fruit is going to get constantly plucked off before it is ripe enough to be really enjoyed. 

The idea of a long term build as we seem to want is always going to struggle against the fact that we're a football club, which is a short term business. My view is that we've found our ceiling under this model and its a shame that modern football doesn't reward this sort of stewardship but fundamentally it doesn't.

I notice you, again, didn't actually make any real mention of what happened on the pitch last season, just the finances and what it means for the balance sheets. But then for some the AGM is the real Cup final...