*****Official Match Thread v QPR*****

[kirku 1,332]

1 minute ago, Mullet said:

I've just checked the offside rule for myself and I am 100% wrong. I apologise to all concerned

No wonder I only scored 1 goal in 30 years of playing

Was it chalked out for offside?

All joking aside, good on you for owning up to the mistake instead of digging and digging like others have done.

We all learn something new everyday.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

7 minutes ago, Mullet said:

I've just checked the offside rule for myself and I am 100% wrong. I apologise to all concerned

No wonder I only scored 1 goal in 30 years of playing

If you look on our PUPs league you won't see me because I'm wrong so often I fell off the bottom 🙃👍

[Thirsty Lizard 3,164]

 

23 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

...and still

0.32 to 0.42 on this video. Look how far 'offside' Buendia is in the build-up!! (Ironically from another game against QPR). 

 

[sonyc 5,517]

22 minutes ago, Mullet said:

I've just checked the offside rule for myself and I am 100% wrong. I apologise to all concerned

No wonder I only scored 1 goal in 30 years of playing

Ah ....but I bet it was the best goal ever😆...and one you'll never forget at least

Edited December 30, 2020 by sonyc

[kick it off 1,952]

1 hour ago, Mullet said:

I haven't seen this in real time but by the look of your picture if Cantwell receives the ball there he is off side because he is ahead of the last defender. It doesn't matter if he is behind Pukki, if he is ahead of the last defender its offside.

EDIT _ Just read your acknowledgement.

Edited December 30, 2020 by kick it off

[Six Pack 93]

3 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Playing Vrancic, Cantwell and Buendia in the same team does not mean creative wonder - it makes us quite easy to nullify. Dowell will give us something different when he is fit, but boy are we missing Stiepermann.

He is fit - after his performance at Watford Farke decided against playing him !

Very wise !

[Six Pack 93]

Can you guys stop debating if Cantwell was offside or not now ?! I'm miserable enough ! The goal wasn't given, we didn't win - its like having a massive hangover after drinking too much and all I hear is banging on the walls !! you guys going on and on !!!

[Six Pack 93]

Only one bright light from tonight's game - Buendia didn't tear them apart - hope Arsenal were watching and maybe thinking - lets pass on this guy !

[CanaryChris 146]

Think Arsenal are looking at Isco, so I the Buendia link may be tenuous. At least I hope so...

I would like to see us change up the formation a bit against Barnsley. I think we have become a bit predictable in our build up and am thinking perhaps trying a 4-4-2 diamond, with Hugill and Pukki up top, Buendia in behind and Cantwell and Rupp on the wings. The back 5 remain the same (perhaps Gibson in for Zimm). This would provide two avenues for attack - the big lump up field for our "old fashioned striker" and the more technical approach we are used to seeing.

Not saying this is a formation to use for say, Swansea away or anything, but against a more limited opposition like Barnsley at Carrow Road, is it worth thinking along these sort of lines?

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

4 hours ago, Six Pack said:

Can you guys stop debating if Cantwell was offside or not now ?! I'm miserable enough ! The goal wasn't given, we didn't win - its like having a massive hangover after drinking too much and all I hear is banging on the walls !! you guys going on and on !!!

It was definitely onside though 😉

Seriously though, I've tried not to slate refs this season, as the VAR alternative is even worse, but that performance, including the decisions for us, were indefensible last night. 

I'm a bit calmer about it this morning though *ungrits teeth *😁

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

7 hours ago, Mullet said:

I've just checked the offside rule for myself and I am 100% wrong. I apologise to all concerned

No wonder I only scored 1 goal in 30 years of playing

The bit of the offside rule that is often got wrong, and even by ex-player commentators sometimes, and players in the heat of the moment, is that if the goalie is out of his goal, further upfield from where the action is, then if there is only one outfield defender back a pass to an attacker who is ahead of the passer is offside. In that case there need to be two outfield defenders back for it to be onside. That aspect of the law is decades out of date - because of the rise of the sweeper-keeper - and it should be changed to one outfield defender.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

8 hours ago, Ian said:

No, that was the incident that led directly to the penalty (which was soft).

I've seen several people argue that we aren't winning games because we are sitting back and allowing teams onto us when 1-0 up, and I explained why I don't believe that was what led to us dropping points tonight.

I don’t think that is a general problem but it was last night and it’s about a mindset as much as the physical position of the players on the pitch. We passed up opportunities to create further chances but also stopped winning the ball bsck, dropped our intensity etc. A team that we’re completely dominant started letting the opposition have chances. It was very frustrating. 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,273]

Frustrating performance. Cantwell and Buendia don't work together often enough. We desperately need some pace and incision, which hopefully Plachetta and Hernandez will bring upon returning to fitness. 

Remember this time 2 years ago. We only took 1 point from Forest and Derby. If we bounce back against Barnsley on Saturday,  we're ok and last night is a point gained. No easy  task though, Barnsley are flying! Which may suit us better, as they may be more prepared to play on the front foot. 

It's very tight at the top and theres not an awful lot in it between the top 5. Our record against them is average, so we need to hit that higher gear in order to stay in front (Bournemouth L, Brentford D, Swansea W, Watford L). 2018/19 was 2 from 3, this year its 2 from 5!

I still fancy us to string another winning run together though. I think its strongest 11 available from now on, which means Gibson, Quintilla, Rupp and Krul back in asap. 

 

 

 

[kick it off 1,952]

Looks like Farke was in agreement about the standard of officiating.

[sgncfc 1,227]

One of the things that having no fans in has emphasised is the amount of abuse given to the officials - all the time, no let up; moaning, whining, swearing. We were so bad at that last night, questioning every single decision. I'm surprised Buendia doesn't get sent off in every game, and Cantwell had to be close to getting a slap from someone.

Now I acknowledge that our "game management" has won us points this season, and that we suffered last year when other teams did it against us. But I'd still rather we didn't do it. We've already had 3 or 4 penalties "won" this season - last nights was a classic "hang the right leg out so it can get kicked" effort, so we can't really complain when Zimmermann rather stupidly puts his hand on their player's shoulder and he goes down like he's been shot. It is mind-boggling for supporters that professional footballers can do something so blindingly ignorant when you're 1-0 up with 7 minutes to play and for that alone he should be dropped.

The "offside" goal was clearly an error, from the stills on Twitter, but it did look offside in real time and it was an easy mistake to make. We shouldn't be relying on the officials to win games though should we? Not when we have such a poor goals to shots ratio. I think we should look closer to home, and that should start with a manager accepting his team's failings, rather than ranting about one or two close decisions every time we lose or draw.

[chicken 2,624]

6 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

It was definitely onside though 😉

Seriously though, I've tried not to slate refs this season, as the VAR alternative is even worse, but that performance, including the decisions for us, were indefensible last night. 

I'm a bit calmer about it this morning though *ungrits teeth *😁

Don't watch the highlights then...

One thing that irks me is inconsistency of refereeing. I don't mind so much if a decision is made and that sets the bar. A tackle is given a yellow and then all similar tackles receive the same treatment.

However, there was no consistency yesterday. It has been a very long time since I have seen such a soft penalty given as the one against Zimmermann. Their striker had his arm across Zimmermann and they were 'tussling'. It wasn't a clear goal scoring opportunity and both were impeding each other. It was never a penalty and never a yellow.

As if to make things worse, there are two previous appeals for penalties with Pukki, neither given, and one was exactly the same infringement, a defender with his hand on Pukki's shoulder preventing him from getting to the ball quicker. This time, no arm across the defender from Pukki either. Not a penalty and not a yellow card. Identical apart from the fact that Pukki was in a better position to score.

And if those are both deemed penalties, then the first call has to be as well, because it was worse than those two put together.

I think that is what frustrates as much as anything. Yes, VAR is a PITA. But refs can be more consistent. What I saw there was a fear to award a penalty for getting it wrong, then when one was awarded, the ref caved and felt he had to give one to either side.

That said, we had the chances, again, but either made the wrong choice, like Buendia shooting from almost the dead ball line rather than trying to square to Pukki etc on a couple of occasions, or QPR were defending for their lives blocking balls on the line etc.

The stats say that QPR had three shots on target. One of those was the penalty. In other words, they managed to get one shot on target on average, once per half. Good defending from us to limit them to that. Especially with a rookie in goal for the 2nd half.

I thought Cantwell played well as did Vrancic. And there were shots going in from a bit further out from the likes of McClean which is good to see. Another day and we could have bagged 3-4, just suffering our usual Chrismas wobble. We'll get over it I'm sure.

[hogesar 9,671]

48 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

One of the things that having no fans in has emphasised is the amount of abuse given to the officials - all the time, no let up; moaning, whining, swearing. We were so bad at that last night, questioning every single decision. I'm surprised Buendia doesn't get sent off in every game, and Cantwell had to be close to getting a slap from someone.

Now I acknowledge that our "game management" has won us points this season, and that we suffered last year when other teams did it against us. But I'd still rather we didn't do it. We've already had 3 or 4 penalties "won" this season - last nights was a classic "hang the right leg out so it can get kicked" effort, so we can't really complain when Zimmermann rather stupidly puts his hand on their player's shoulder and he goes down like he's been shot. It is mind-boggling for supporters that professional footballers can do something so blindingly ignorant when you're 1-0 up with 7 minutes to play and for that alone he should be dropped.

The "offside" goal was clearly an error, from the stills on Twitter, but it did look offside in real time and it was an easy mistake to make. We shouldn't be relying on the officials to win games though should we? Not when we have such a poor goals to shots ratio. I think we should look closer to home, and that should start with a manager accepting his team's failings, rather than ranting about one or two close decisions every time we lose or draw.

Wait what?

We were far more respectful of the officials than QPR where despite us being on the wrong end of most decisions! 

Simon Lappin actually pointed that out in the commentary.

[Ian 1,129]

Always interesting how many people apply extreme mental gymnastics just to have a pop at the team or management when a result doesn't go our way.

It is fair to say we aren't making the most of our chances, and haven't this season, but to not recognise and/or disregard the fact we were victims of unbelievably poor officiating last night seems odd.

[chicken 2,624]

1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

One of the things that having no fans in has emphasised is the amount of abuse given to the officials - all the time, no let up; moaning, whining, swearing. We were so bad at that last night, questioning every single decision. I'm surprised Buendia doesn't get sent off in every game, and Cantwell had to be close to getting a slap from someone.

Now I acknowledge that our "game management" has won us points this season, and that we suffered last year when other teams did it against us. But I'd still rather we didn't do it. We've already had 3 or 4 penalties "won" this season - last nights was a classic "hang the right leg out so it can get kicked" effort, so we can't really complain when Zimmermann rather stupidly puts his hand on their player's shoulder and he goes down like he's been shot. It is mind-boggling for supporters that professional footballers can do something so blindingly ignorant when you're 1-0 up with 7 minutes to play and for that alone he should be dropped.

The "offside" goal was clearly an error, from the stills on Twitter, but it did look offside in real time and it was an easy mistake to make. We shouldn't be relying on the officials to win games though should we? Not when we have such a poor goals to shots ratio. I think we should look closer to home, and that should start with a manager accepting his team's failings, rather than ranting about one or two close decisions every time we lose or draw.

I would love for all teams to be respectful towards the ref in the same way rugby players are to the refs in their sport. However, until that is enforced you simply cannot be the team that rises above it.

When I ran a team on a Sunday I tried to encourage my players to be respectful of the referees and not to argue with them as it would result in them responding with more cards, fines and essentially could cost us the game etc. However I was naïve.

In my experience, being courteous, polite and accommodating to the referees gave them more confidence in being able to award things against us knowing that we wouldn't kick up a fuss and just get on with it. The contrast then was teams that would whinge and moan at everything and the refs being reticent to award anything against them due to the grief and threats of poor write ups etc.

Now I know this is Sunday league level and it is very different. But I can't help but feel that this plays out to a degree on the pitch of professionals as well. It will depend on the ref, some are strong enough to know what is going on and stand against it or cut right through it.

I have refed a few games, and potentially will again in the future. I just go back to basics and if a player is giving me grief I give them a count down to a yellow. It's amazing how effective that is. "I'm going to issue you with a yellow card unless you go away. I'll count to five, if you are still here having a go, your name is in the book. FIVE, FOUR..." It works.

So whilst I agree in principle, it exists, it's in games and these referees are paid and are professional these days. They should know what to expect and how to deal with it. They have the tools in their hands.

[Indy 3,300]

I’m not sure Vrancic at 10 is the right position, much rather start him behind a number 10 alongside Skipp or McClean, do we really need two holding midfielders who look to pass the ball backwards all the time?

We have missed Steipermann, who although not blessed with pace or heading abilities certainly is our best fit there! Dowell needs more game time. But Vrancic there isn’t working.

As for shots, yesterday our shooting wasn’t the best, but our defence is always liable to concede stupid goals and Zimmermann didn’t need to put his arm anywhere near that player.

Our best spell coincided with Buendia, Cantwell, Aaron’s and Pukki linking up and moving the ball quicker, we look a different side when we play on the front foot.

A points a point, take it and move on, the games against Bournemouth and Watford in April will be key to promotion and it might just be in front of a full house! Just might be!

[Grumpy 122]

16 hours ago, Grumpy said:

Why didn't the ref give a yellow card to Ball for his penalty against Cantwell.It would have been his second of the night having got a booking just minutes before the penalty.Zimmermann received a yellow for his penalty foul.

I have checked with my son, who is a level 3 ref, with regard to this and he informs me that it is not necessarily a bookable offence.

 

He also said that in his opinion the Cantwell goal should have been allowed 

[chicken 2,624]

7 hours ago, Grumpy said:

I have checked with my son, who is a level 3 ref, with regard to this and he informs me that it is not necessarily a bookable offence.

 

He also said that in his opinion the Cantwell goal should have been allowed 

I agree with him.

The Zimmermann pen was incredibly soft and shouldn't be given. However, if the ref is giving it for his hand being on the shoulder of the player and in some way impedes him having a shot, that isn't a legal challenge so is a yellow. Same as a tug on a shirt etc can be elsewhere on the pitch.

The challenge on Cantwell was a genuine effort to get the ball and the latest rules around that suggest there shouldn't be a double punishment if a genuine attempt to get the ball was made. I think it would be harsh to say their player intended to scythe him down. A penalty was enough.

That said, earlier in the game Pukki was pulled back far more obviously in their area and a penalty wasn't given, nor a yellow...