Millwall fans boo thier own players taking the knee

[Mr.Carrow 376]

9 minutes ago, horsefly said:

It is exactly the same logic that you use. That you can't see that is depressing. It seems you think millions of us around the world have all been hoodwinked into supporting a Marxist revolutionary ideology because a couple of members of BLM have exclaimed Marxist values and they too have supported taking the knee. FFS get real, or go and spend some time with the QAnoncers, they love this stuff. The rest of us will just have to take the risk that we're all being converted into Marxist revolutionaries by our evil support for an act expressing racial equality. Maybe one day, after we've all been rescued from our blind adherence to the (former) Marxist ideology of the BLM leadership, we will fall to our knees as praise you for the true saviour that you are. 

 

What is really depressing is that people like you get so emotional and threatened by some recommendations of some thinkers who may challenge your cosy little orthodoxy. It is basically religious thinking. You are an intellectual coward.

[The Real Buh 3,439]

You all realise Farke Hasn’t been taking the knee for quite a while, yeah?

[Badger 2,406]

1 hour ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Performative acts of acquiescence in which you will be socially shamed and punished for not taking part are a classic in the authoritarian playbook.

Like standing for the national anthem, you mean? Shouting during the two minute silence on Remembrance Sunday; swearing at a funeral cortege for driving too slowly? 

Queueing? Giving up your seat to an old person? Taking the knee to support ant-racism etc

Just seems like being a good person to me - I didn't realise that I was carrying out a performative act of acquiescence. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

What is really depressing is that people like you get so emotional and threatened by some recommendations of some thinkers who may challenge your cosy little orthodoxy. It is basically religious thinking. You are an intellectual coward.

Thinkers think and the rest of us do something.

[Badger 2,406]

2 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

You all realise Farke Hasn’t been taking the knee for quite a while, yeah?

Keep up - we have already discussed this - he is a deeply embedded soviet agent - he can't give himself away!

[The Real Buh 3,439]

Just now, Badger said:

Keep up - we have already discussed this - he is a deeply embedded soviet agent - he can't give himself away!

Is our manager a racist?

[Badger 2,406]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

What is really depressing is that people like you get so emotional and threatened by some recommendations of some thinkers who may challenge your cosy little orthodoxy. It is basically religious thinking. You are an intellectual coward.

There doesn't seem to be any intellectual thinking in this post - it just seems like an ad hominem attack.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Just now, Badger said:

There doesn't seem to be any intellectual thinking in this post - it just seems like an ad hominem attack.

He started it 🙂

[Badger 2,406]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

Is our manager a racist?

No - he is a deeply embedded spy! You need to go back through the pages, but basically it all a Marxist plot by the football authorities, which Millwall fans are trying to expose!

You see what you miss when you go away? 

[Badger 2,406]

Just now, Mr.Carrow said:

He started it 🙂

👍 😄

[The Real Buh 3,439]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

No - he is a deeply embedded spy! You need to go back through the pages, but basically it all a Marxist plot by the football authorities, which Millwall fans are trying to expose!

You see what you miss when you go away? 

I saw him wearing a poppy once so according to Herman he supports a nefarious right wing organisation, The Royal British Legion.

Edited December 6, 2020 by The Real Buh

[chicken 2,627]

4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Because its the usual middle class consciences pretending they have empathy with every bleddy cause or protest in the UK and the rest of the World.

Stop bleddy talking and protesting about matters for a week before you crawl off back to your red brick universities and take some action for a change. 

We don't all live in suburban bleddy home counties. We were brought up on estates and nobody gave a toss about us until we started taking action. 

Our leaders and  people who inspired us were Keir Hardie and Nye Bevan not bleddy thinkers like Chomsky or poets like Cooper Clark.

Stop talking about ridding the world of inequality and all its forms and doing something about it.

This is a bit of an odd one in that you inject class blame into it. Usually something that comes from the right wing in response to the left.

The left often talks about the working people and trying to represent them, hence the vast majority of trade unions being largely left wing in nature. They can therefore be guilty of blaming all of the countries woes on the higher/power/wealthy class.

In response the right wing know they can't blame the working class as they are typically seen to have the most numbers and you don't want to anger the largest demographic in case they turn out and vote against you in droves. So what do they do? Blame the middle class.

The thing is, in reality, when you look at voting turnout %'s, it's usually the more heavily working class areas that have the lower turnouts. Which kind of contradicts your middle class needs to get out there and take action. But then most of these types of view are easily deconstructed.

If you live on the estates you suggest, then you'll know there is strong political apathy. Votes are not felt to mean much, if they want change it is too difficult to enact. Overturning a several thousand vote lead from the last election can and does look insurmountable.

So the question really is, what can WE do about it? Because I suspect that despite a lot of comments from people on here, the vast majority aren't prepared to actually take any action. By that I mean protest, counter protest or stand up and suggest something or to support something that finds the middle ground. Because right now the UK has been divided and it is becoming dangerously entrenched. Both 'sides' of the political spectrum are guilty. If they can't get their act together and be reasonable then it is down to the rest of us to refuse to fall from the old school propaganda and tell them to do one. 

[jaywick_canery 28]

What is not being understood is that the booing was for the 'act' not the 'cause'. I doubt any of us on here would have any truck with race hate however I reckon the majority are heartily sick of having our national game being used and manipulated by all and sundry to promote politically correct causes.

 

Sadly with our owners I fear we will still be doing when everybody has woken up to what is going on.

[jaywick_canery 28]

2 hours ago, Badger said:

We absolutely are not! Have a look at the Gini coefficient.

It was explained to me many years ago that if you gave everybody £100 on New Years Day.....by the end of January some would have £200, some would still have £100 and others would be penniless. Don't confuse equality with material worth.

 

Inequality is a fact of life and those who complain of failure are generally those who haven't tried hard enough in life..

[Alex Moss 2,165]

19 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

I saw him wearing a poppy once so according to Herman he supports a nefarious right wing organisation, The Royal British Legion.

Ha ha, it’s amazing how many people cannot see that wearing a poppy is just a simple mark of respect for those died when made to fight for their country. It doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a rabid fan of Royal British Legion clubs or anything. For most people, it’s nothing to do with politics, and nothing more than a show of respect.

Exactly the same with taking a knee. To most people it just means a show of solidarity saying disgusting racist behaviour is not and will not be tolerated anymore. Again, nothing more, nothing less. 

[hogesar 9,676]

25 minutes ago, jaywick_canery said:

What is not being understood is that the booing was for the 'act' not the 'cause'. I doubt any of us on here would have any truck with race hate however I reckon the majority are heartily sick of having our national game being used and manipulated by all and sundry to promote politically correct causes.

 

Sadly with our owners I fear we will still be doing when everybody has woken up to what is going on.

Not being racist = political correctness gone mad, amirite?

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

Are we all looking forward to the Christmas episode of the Vicar of Dibley?

 

[The Real Buh 3,439]

Just now, FenwayFrank said:

Are we all looking forward to the Christmas episode of the Vicar of Dibley?

 

Will she be able to get up or is she still kneeling?

[Naturalcynic 631]

1 minute ago, FenwayFrank said:

Are we all looking forward to the Christmas episode of the Vicar of Dibley?

 

Is Gary Lineker appearing in it?

[ELYOUKAYEE 37]

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

41 minutes ago, Badger said:

Like standing for the national anthem, you mean? Shouting during the two minute silence on Remembrance Sunday; swearing at a funeral cortege for driving too slowly? 

Queueing? Giving up your seat to an old person? Taking the knee to support ant-racism etc

Just seems like being a good person to me - I didn't realise that I was carrying out a performative act of acquiescence. 

Yes and in Havel's communist Czech Republic, they'd have said exactly the same about the "Workers of the World Unite" posters which were basically obligatory if you knew what was good for you. 

For context, I'm in the Americas therefore have mainly been seeing US media this year. At least in the US BLM posters, taking the knee, raising the fist was often socially enforced in a similar way. BLM posters outside businesses were referred to as "don't hurt me" posters.

I'm Left libertarian therefore I react pretty badly to groupthink, coercion and authoritarianism. The fact that me merely pointing out that intellectuals of all backgrounds are calling out the same things gets such a hysterical reaction is, well, telling....

[chicken 2,627]

13 minutes ago, jaywick_canery said:

It was explained to me many years ago that if you gave everybody £100 on New Years Day.....by the end of January some would have £200, some would still have £100 and others would be penniless. Don't confuse equality with material worth.

 

Inequality is a fact of life and those who complain of failure are generally those who haven't tried hard enough in life..

Strange one. On the one hand you are saying don't confuse equality with material worth, the next you are saying inequality is a fact of life and those that complain of failure are generally those who haven't tried hard enough in life.

The two don't really go together.

Equality isn't just about wealth of any kind, it's about opportunity. Are the same journey's, the same route's available to all? Or equivalent routes? Does the colour of ones skin, the religion one follows, their gender, sexual orientation or the culture one is from have an impact on how much they can achieve?

Once upon a time there would have been a hard yes. My grandmother was born and raised in the East End of London. Some of the terminology she would use by today's standards would be considered racist. Interestingly though she'd also say that the migrants from the colonies of the Empire were "poor ****s" because they never had a "sodding chance". She knew that they were no different to her but had no hope of getting out of the same slums and awful conditions they lived in, where as she did. And she did.

That is what we are talking about here. Even within football. That opportunities can be more difficult for kids from families from impoverished families. I'm a great believer in that many people are born with strengths and weaknesses and some are better suited to certain contexts, such as sports like football, than others. In the same way that some are better at maths, or science. The question then becomes how to we expose those contexts to as many kids as possible as to identify their talents?

Private schools tend to have smaller classes ensuring that delivery of teaching is better quality and the teachers ability to monitor and identify talent is far easier. And at this point it is easy to see how inequality can be present from such a young age.

There may never be true equality, it may always be about constantly going back to the scales but surely it is never a bad thing to hope for, to work towards?

[Badger 2,406]

42 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

I saw him wearing a poppy once so according to Herman he supports a nefarious right wing organisation, The Royal British Legion.

He's embedded - he has to pretend.

[The Real Buh 3,439]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

He's embedded - he has to pretend.

No answers then, cheers, message received.

[Badger 2,406]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

Yes and in Havel's communist Czech Republic, they'd have said exactly the same about the "Workers of the World Unite" posters which were basically obligatory if you knew what was good for you. 

For context, I'm in the Americas therefore have mainly been seeing US media this year. At least in the US BLM posters, taking the knee, raising the fist was often socially enforced in a similar way. BLM posters outside businesses were referred to as "don't hurt me" posters.

I'm Left libertarian therefore I react pretty badly to groupthink, coercion and authoritarianism. The fact that me merely pointing out that intellectuals of all backgrounds are calling out the same things gets such a hysterical reaction is, well, telling....

Unfortunately the dispossessed, poor and powerless have to use any tools at their disposal if they want to change society - consciousness and awareness (or groupthink as you pejoratively put it) is one such means.  You have to make people aware of the problem before there is any chance of action being taken on it.

Collective action, often flawed has been the tool of the less powerful throughout the ages. When the levers of power are so heavily imbalanced, how do left-wing libertarians bring about positive change? Genuine question.

[Badger 2,406]

36 minutes ago, jaywick_canery said:

It was explained to me many years ago that if you gave everybody £100 on New Years Day.....by the end of January some would have £200, some would still have £100 and others would be penniless. Don't confuse equality with material worth.

 

Inequality is a fact of life and those who complain of failure are generally those who haven't tried hard enough in life..

It's the parable of the talents basically...

You are now telling me that inequality is a fact of life, but previously said that we are all equal?

[Naturalcynic 631]

2 minutes ago, Badger said:

Unfortunately the dispossessed, poor and powerless have to use any tools at their disposal if they want to change society - consciousness and awareness (or groupthink as you pejoratively put it) is one such means.  You have to make people aware of the problem before there is any chance of action being taken on it.

Collective action, often flawed has been the tool of the less powerful throughout the ages. When the levers of power are so heavily imbalanced, how do left-wing libertarians bring about positive change? Genuine question.

You’re not one of those activists who stand on Gentleman’s Walk on Saturdays trying to flog copies of Socialist Worker, are you?

[Badger 2,406]

9 minutes ago, chicken said:

Equality isn't just about wealth of any kind, it's about opportunity.

Equality of opportunity would be a step forwards, but of course it is hugely discriminatory and as with a meritocracy would lead to wide a growing gaps within society. Ultimately it would be social darwinism.

[Badger 2,406]

3 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

You’re not one of those activists who stand on Gentleman’s Walk on Saturdays trying to flog copies of Socialist Worker, are you?

Trying to "flog" (I presume you mean sell rather than beat?) newspapers is essentially a capitalist action. They should give them away as all property is theft.

Talking of powerlessness and inequality, I now have to dish up my wife's dinner.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Badger

[Naturalcynic 631]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

Trying to "flog" (I presume you mean sell rather than beat?) newspapers is essentially a capitalist action. They should give them away as all property is theft.

🤣😂🤣