Millwall fans boo thier own players taking the knee

[horsefly 4,300]

50 minutes ago, paul moy said:

It's time to drop this match-day ritual which i believe is feeding racism.   

Perhaps you would like to explain how taking the knee for a 15 second expression of racial solidarity is actually "feeding racism"

[horsefly 4,300]

2 minutes ago, Taylor324 said:

"Otherwise we can almost wave off almost anything"

Like defunding the police you mean? Which is a fundamental aim of the BLM organisation 

Taking the knee for 15 seconds to express racial solidarity has nothing to do with defunding the police. Please at least try to stick to the point.

[chicken 2,624]

1 hour ago, Taylor324 said:

"Believing the Millwall lot"?  I'm just stating a fact, BLM are a political group and have officially registered as such  - a Marxist political party - I suggest you read their mission statement and reconsider who is being naive 

I think you need to check your "facts".

I've visited their website and looked all over it. Which bit of their mission statement are you relating to?

The Marxist remark is partially flawed. I say that because whilst the founders have spoken about being "trained Marxists" people generally don't understand what Marxism actually is. Especially in this instance where this particular line of attack is US born. And I have to say, I am becoming more and more concerned about how UK politics is aligning with the toxicity of the tribal US political approaches. Here is a link to a politifact piece that sums it up nicely.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/black-lives-matter-marxist-movement/
 

3 minutes ago, Taylor324 said:

Like defunding the police you mean? Which is a fundamental aim of the BLM organisation 

Sadly this just further underlines my fear. Defunding of the police is in the USA and there is good reason for that being a goal. A great example is LA. As you can see in a piece here: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-01/lapd-budget-cuts-protesters-police-brutality

$3billion on the police. And they haven't demanded that the money is just cut. Their push is to have it spent in other areas such as mental health.

One thing is for certain, if you support the BLM movement you are not a Marxist, Communist or even a Socialist. And you don't have to be one to support the movement.

The backlash is daft. Just like the opposition to the rainbow football laces is daft during Pride.

[chicken 2,624]

 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by chicken

[alex_ncfc 662]

3 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Where did I say he can't be questioned? I didn't did I so stop putting words in my mouth.

But if it's okay with you I'll give his views on the matter a lot more credence than I would give to a bunch of white people who are very unlikely to have ever experienced racism. 

I'm not putting words into your mouth, that's what you said.

You have suggested that he is more qualified to speak on the matter and call out people as racist - why? Because he's black? Maybe not all of those who booed today are racist. Just because they booed something that they are probably getting sick of seeing and being forced upon them before a game of football, where people go to be entertained, not preached to. You've also done so by assuming that everyone posting on the matter is white. Nice one. I've seen plenty of tweets from black people who are also fed up with this pre-match ritual which has long since lost its effectiveness.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

2 hours ago, Taylor324 said:

"Believing the Millwall lot"?  I'm just stating a fact, BLM are a political group and have officially registered as such  - a Marxist political party - I suggest you read their mission statement and reconsider who is being naive 

I have read the mission statement and there is nothing about being a Marxist political party. Can you point to it for me please. Thanks.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

I think you need to check your "facts".

I've visited their website and looked all over it. Which bit of their mission statement are you relating to?

The Marxist remark is partially flawed. I say that because whilst the founders have spoken about being "trained Marxists" people generally don't understand what Marxism actually is. Especially in this instance where this particular line of attack is US born. And I have to say, I am becoming more and more concerned about how UK politics is aligning with the toxicity of the tribal US political approaches. Here is a link to a politifact piece that sums it up nicely.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/black-lives-matter-marxist-movement/
 

Sadly this just further underlines my fear. Defunding of the police is in the USA and there is good reason for that being a goal. A great example is LA. As you can see in a piece here: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-01/lapd-budget-cuts-protesters-police-brutality

$3billion on the police. And they haven't demanded that the money is just cut. Their push is to have it spent in other areas such as mental health.

One thing is for certain, if you support the BLM movement you are not a Marxist, Communist or even a Socialist. And you don't have to be one to support the movement.

The backlash is daft. Just like the opposition to the rainbow football laces is daft during Pride.

Refunding of the police in the states is an argument that if you spend more on education and resources to stop crime you don't need as many police, therefore society is better. Surely that is a noble aim?

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

This defunding the police line misses the point. The argument is that more money should be spent on education to tackle the root cause rather than fund those dealing with the effects. It’s a great idea in principle but is barely mentioned as it doesn’t fit the argument that BLM is an evil extreme left movement.

 

Edit. Sorry Kenny F, I’m obviously slow at typing and missed your post!

Edited December 6, 2020 by Fiery Zac

[BarclayWazza 91]

2 hours ago, horsefly said:

Perhaps you would like to explain how taking the knee for a 15 second expression of racial solidarity is actually "feeding racism"

My tuppence worth (for what it is actually worth)

When people say "All Lives Matter" I tend to agree.  I'm not for one minute thinking about myself as a white middle class Englishman, but black people are not the only people treated with discrimination - the problem is more multi-faceted.  Racism isn't just limited to black people (I would suggest there is more racism against people from the middle east in the UK than there is against black people) and I can't believe we still live in a world where in some countries you can be executed for your sexual preferences.  Plus we also need to be able to say that people from a BAME background can also be guilty of racism.  Some of the worst racism I've seen personally has been Black on Asian.  The Black Lives Matter political movement seeks to go far beyond inclusivity for black people and there have been elements of the movement that have been anti-semitic.  One of the main issues I've seen with BLM (as a statement, rather than a movement) is that you hear that you are far more likely to be murdered in the US if you are black, however these murders are predominantly committed by black people (about 90%).  So if Black Lives Matter so much, why are we focusing on the 10% of black lives lost and not the reasoning behind the 90%.  Why are we focused on the instance of the fate of a black man detained in the process of committing a crime and making it a racial matter (when there is little to no evidence of it being racially motivated) and not also the instances of where this has happened to other races.  While I don't necessarily believe that the BLM movement is feeding racism, there are people that ask these questions and the lack of a sensible response (often twisted into accusations of racism) is then, in my opinion, what makes the BLM statement, movement and knee gestures lose a bit of credibility.

My issue with just saying "Black Lives Matter" is that I think that does serve to divide by focusing on putting people in a racial group..  The approach I believe we should take as a culture is to focus on promoting inclusivity and acceptance as a whole and across all cultures in the UK, not what are becoming empty gestures for one facet.  Within a multicultural country, it's inevitable people are going to still group within their own cultures and certain elements of those cultures are going to be incompatible with other cultures.  To progress, we have to be able to have difficult conversations about appropriate ways to mitigate this without being offensive and without being labelled as racist.  How we do this.... well, as I said, I'm just a middle class white man who thinks it would have been far better had the Millwall fans just burst into a good old Cockney rendition of "Knees Up Mother Brown".

[horsefly 4,300]

3 hours ago, BarclayWazza said:

My tuppence worth (for what it is actually worth)

When people say "All Lives Matter" I tend to agree.  I'm not for one minute thinking about myself as a white middle class Englishman, but black people are not the only people treated with discrimination - the problem is more multi-faceted.  Racism isn't just limited to black people (I would suggest there is more racism against people from the middle east in the UK than there is against black people) and I can't believe we still live in a world where in some countries you can be executed for your sexual preferences.  Plus we also need to be able to say that people from a BAME background can also be guilty of racism.  Some of the worst racism I've seen personally has been Black on Asian.  The Black Lives Matter political movement seeks to go far beyond inclusivity for black people and there have been elements of the movement that have been anti-semitic.  One of the main issues I've seen with BLM (as a statement, rather than a movement) is that you hear that you are far more likely to be murdered in the US if you are black, however these murders are predominantly committed by black people (about 90%).  So if Black Lives Matter so much, why are we focusing on the 10% of black lives lost and not the reasoning behind the 90%.  Why are we focused on the instance of the fate of a black man detained in the process of committing a crime and making it a racial matter (when there is little to no evidence of it being racially motivated) and not also the instances of where this has happened to other races.  While I don't necessarily believe that the BLM movement is feeding racism, there are people that ask these questions and the lack of a sensible response (often twisted into accusations of racism) is then, in my opinion, what makes the BLM statement, movement and knee gestures lose a bit of credibility.

My issue with just saying "Black Lives Matter" is that I think that does serve to divide by focusing on putting people in a racial group..  The approach I believe we should take as a culture is to focus on promoting inclusivity and acceptance as a whole and across all cultures in the UK, not what are becoming empty gestures for one facet.  Within a multicultural country, it's inevitable people are going to still group within their own cultures and certain elements of those cultures are going to be incompatible with other cultures.  To progress, we have to be able to have difficult conversations about appropriate ways to mitigate this without being offensive and without being labelled as racist.  How we do this.... well, as I said, I'm just a middle class white man who thinks it would have been far better had the Millwall fans just burst into a good old Cockney rendition of "Knees Up Mother Brown".

When you say you agree with those that say "All Lives Matter"  this at best shows a naivety about the anti-racism protest, and at worse is racist itself. This has been explained before in many places but I can only assume haven't encountered those discussions.

The "Black lives matter" slogan contains an obvious ellipsis, and what you think the missing word is gives a very clear indication of your own overt or implicit attitude to racism. The choices come down to the following two: "Only black lives matter", or "Black lives matter too". If you're in the "All lives matter" group then, alas, you think the protest is really claiming that only black lives matter. The briefest of consideration of the actual protests show this is clearly utter nonsense. You need to ask yourself why it is that far right wing groups and overt racists have adopted the slogan "All lives matter". It is precisely to convince you that the slogan "Black lives matter" is really shorthand for what would indeed be a racist claim that only black lives matter. But the reality is that the "Black lives matter" slogan should be completed by the word "too". That is all that is being demanded by the protestors, simple equality of treatment.

When footballers of all colours and ethnicities take the knee they are doing so to show solidarity with each other. They do so to support the idea that players of colour deserve the same respect and treatment as white players. The idea that they are taking the knee to show support for the claim that only black lives matter is clearly absurd.

How that simple short act can be seen as anything but a positive expression defies understanding. Anyone "irritated" or "annoyed" by such an act really does need to examine seriously the underlying causes of such a feeling.

Of course all lives matter, but that statement will only be true when it is accepted that black lives matter too. 

[Herman 9,765]

7 hours ago, Taylor324 said:

"Otherwise we can almost wave off almost anything"

Like defunding the police you mean? Which is a fundamental aim of the BLM organisation 

You do realise that the party you put into power for another 5 years quite literally defunded the police for over ten years??

[beanoncfc 9]

I notice nobody has mentioned placheta kicked off at Luton instead of kneeling.

[horsefly 4,300]

3 minutes ago, beanoncfc said:

I notice nobody has mentioned placheta kicked off at Luton instead of kneeling.

He heard the whistle and thought it was for the kick off. No intended disrespect.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

🎶 Move this thread, move this thread Petey Raven

Move this thread, move this thread I say

Move this thread, move this thread Petey Raven

Off Topic containment is the only way 🎶 

[Herman 9,765]

[beanoncfc 9]

Why don’t they just have kick racism out of football on every teams shirt and do away with the kneeling.

[horsefly 4,300]

1 minute ago, beanoncfc said:

Why don’t they just have kick racism out of football on every teams shirt and do away with the kneeling.

Because it's a very clear signal that professional footballers are determined to show racial solidarity and respectfully compete with each other on fair and equal terms. It is also a very clear message to fans that they are expected to observe those same values too. The fact you have even raised this question shows that taking the knee is proving effective.

[beanoncfc 9]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Because it's a very clear signal that professional footballers are determined to show racial solidarity and respectfully compete with each other on fair and equal terms. It is also a very clear message to fans that they are expected to observe those same values too. The fact you have even raised this question shows that taking the knee is proving effective.

Horsefly are you a social worker?

[horsefly 4,300]

Just a question to all you people who find yourself irritated and annoyed by the 15 second taking the knee protest. Do you also get irritated and annoyed when you are asked to stand for a 1 minute silence as an act of respect for a deceased fan or footballer?

[horsefly 4,300]

19 minutes ago, beanoncfc said:

Horsefly are you a social worker?

Nope! just an ordinary human being who has bothered to consider the plight of a part of our population who have been, and continue to be, subject to abuse, inequality and injustice on a daily basis. As a white middle class male it has never particularly struck me as an onerous expectation that I might consider the lives of those who don't share the same advantages or respect that come with my "happy fortune".

Edited December 6, 2020 by horsefly

[Petriix 2,835]

This thread is very much on-topic. Judging by some of the alarming views expressed herein I'd said that it's a very important conversation that needs to be had. If it makes you feel uncomfortable to have your views challenged then that's a good thing. It's time to enter the 21st century with the rest of us.

Well done to the patient and articulate posters on here taking the time to explain the obvious to the bigots. You may not convince the vocal minority, but you might help some others to understand.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

13 minutes ago, Petriix said:

This thread is very much on-topic. Judging by some of the alarming views expressed herein I'd said that it's a very important conversation that needs to be had. If it makes you feel uncomfortable to have your views challenged then that's a good thing. It's time to enter the 21st century with the rest of us.

Well done to the patient and articulate posters on here taking the time to explain the obvious to the bigots. You may not convince the vocal minority, but you might help some others to understand.

 

[shefcanary 2,407]

Health warning.  This next statement is challenging, but just turn the clock back 10 years and who in their right mind would think we'd be exiting EU on 31 December without any firm trade deal in place to replace it ( apart from a watered down version of current EU deal with Japan)?

 

Blimey if more people buy this "BLM is a leftist plot" nonsense, like the farce we have today over an oven ready Brexit deal that isn't and a final no deal that will keep half of UK on poor street for years to come, BAME people in UK will be hounded out of the country within 10 years.  

 

Its the same insidious propaganda at work yet again.  

[Chelm Canary 404]

Awful lot of virtue signalling on here and people saying what they believe to be from a higher moral ground rather than thinking independently. 

This always happens with this type of topic. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Chelm Canary

[Herman 9,765]

"I like (in the sense that I notice with contempt) how 'virtue signalling' has been adopted by the right as an all-purpose derogatory synonymous phrase for what actually is an ethical stance. I suppose it was inevitable, though, given the right's general unease with ethical stances and the whole concept of altruism." PC.

 

It's from the same soundbite dog doo bin that "political correctness", "woke" and "cancel culture" came from.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Herman

[The Real Buh 3,432]

 Move this thread, move this thread Petey Raven

Move this thread, move this thread I say

Move this thread, move this thread Petey Raven

Off Topic containment is the only way

  
 

[ron obvious 1,502]

 

Starts at 44.40

 

[The Real Buh 3,432]

What do you reckon lads?

is it time?

[Herman 9,765]

Let people talk. If it upsets you, don't click on the thread.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

What do ya reckon then laddos?

should I report this thread like I reported Bills thread last week...OOOPS

nah, I didn’t really